Karl Boyes comments on racking

Racking should not be part of the game. racking is not,or should not be part of playing pool.

Racking pool balls is NOT PLAYING POOL!!!!!!!!!.

Pool is a very dumb sport or game.

Maybe one of these years it will snap out of it's dumb state but I doubt it.

I have been wating oh 35 years and it's still in the old gutter that it has always been in:o

PS: maybe the dummys can come up with a pool game where the rack means nothing.

Like in straight pool or bank pool or one pocketl.

Nah, lets turn it into a cheaters game,bravo!

Pool is so dumbed down it aint even funny:sorry:

John Brumback
 
John Brumback said:
Racking should not be part of the game. racking is not,or should not be part of playing pool.

Racking pool balls is NOT PLAYING POOL!!!!!!!!!.

Pool is a very dumb sport or game.

Maybe one of these years it will snap out of it's dumb state but I doubt it.

I have been wating oh 35 years and it's still in the old gutter that it has always been in:o

PS: maybe the dummys can come up with a pool game where the rack means nothing.

Like in straight pool or bank pool or one pocketl.

Nah, lets turn it into a cheaters game,bravo!

Pool is so dumbed down it aint even funny:sorry:

John Brumback
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Welp, there is my vote for post of the year. Straight from the mouth of a well known pro.

Another game where the rack means nothing, snooker. A game that can not be "tricked" in any way, it is a game that rewards pure skill, and it is more successful then pool has ever been, and likely ever will be unless pool seriously figures some things out.

I am totally fine with "breaking" being a skill, it is akin to a tennis serve. The "racking" being a skill, and people arguing that it "should" be a skill is bloody absurd. Why not let bowlers go set their own pins...
 
Celtic said:
Welp, there is my vote for post of the year. Straight from the mouth of a well known pro.

Another game where the rack means nothing, snooker. A game that can not be "tricked" in any way, it is a game that rewards pure skill, and it is more successful then pool has ever been, and likely ever will be unless pool seriously figures some things out.

I am totally fine with "breaking" being a skill, it is akin to a tennis serve. The "racking" being a skill, and people arguing that it "should" be a skill is bloody absurd. Why not let bowlers go set their own pins...
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Snooker is soooo slowwww but love the personalities and superstars though
Yes the breaking in pool should be de-emphasised . Absolutely enjoyed World Cuo of pool this past week. Why? Part of reason is the best breakers like Ko were not breaking well and they had to use their other skills in mid rack and end rack to win the rack. There were more racks won by the non - breaker in long time . Lots of thrills and roller coaster matches
 
Celtic said:
Yeah that sounds like it might be the match but if it is then there were a lot more runs than that. I cannot find it on Youtube so there is no going back to see it. There is potentially a small chance it is a different event but I went back through Alex's finishes the last few years and cannot see another event that stands out as being it. I would "very" much like to find it again, it is very apt in this exact discussion.

Edit: Yeah, it was the US Open A final in 2012, there was a lot of discussion on it here and it was a lot fresher in my mind back then. I am not sure your stats on that match are correct, I would very much like to get that match posted onto Youtube if anyone has it...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=314352&highlight=racking&page=2
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The 2012 US Open 9-Ball hot-seat match can be purchased from Accu-Stats -- Van Boening defeated Pagulayan 11-5.

If you have a chance to view it, I think you will find that it went like this:

Game 1. Pagulayan (P) broke dry. P won the game in his 3rd inning after a poor safety on the 4-ball by Van Boening (VB). [0-1]
Game 2. P made two balls on the break and played safe on the 1-ball. VB slopped it in on a kick shot and ran out. [1-1]
Game 3. VB B&R. [2-1]
Game 4. VB B&R. [3-1]
Game 5. VB B&R. [4-1]
Game 6. VB made two balls on the break, then missed the 1-ball on a full-cue jump. After several safeties, P attempted to make the 9-ball with a carom off the 1-ball, but he scratched. VB ran out. [5-1]
Game 7. Helfert checked the rack. VB made one ball on the break and pushed. P returned the shot to VB, who played a good safety. P scratched kicking at the 1-ball and VB ran out. [6-1]
Game 8. VB B&R. [7-1]
Game 9. VB made two balls on the break, then missed a bank on the 1-ball. P ran out. [7-2]
Game 10. P scratched on the break. VB ran out. [8-2]
Game 11. VB scratched on the break. P ran out. [8-3]
Game 12. P made one ball on the break, then missed the 1-ball on a 2-way shot. VB used a jump cue to hit the 1-ball. P missed the 1-ball. VB used a jump cue to bank in the 1-ball, but then missed the 2-ball. P ran out. [8-4]
Game 13. P B&R. [8-5]
Game 14. P scratched on the break. VB ran out with a 3/9 combo. [9-5]
Game 15. VB B&R. [10-5]
Game 16. VB B&R. [11-5]

Break-and-run games -- 6 by VB (a 3-pack, a 2-pack, and 1 single), 1 by P. The breaker won 11 of the 16 games.

The wing ball was pocketed (once on a kick-in rather than directly) on all 12 successful breaks (9 by VB and 3 by P) and on 2 of the 3 fouled breaks. The wing ball was not pocketed on P's dry break and on one of his fouled breaks.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Intentionally tilting, moving up or down from the spot, or creating gaps in the rack for your benefit or to your opponents disadvantage is cheating. As much as I hate it, I have to agree with Boyes
on this one. Warnings should be issued at first offense, and unless heeded should lead to dq, if a pattern of this behavior is discovered.

Referee should always rack, if that is at all possible.
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100% agree. intentionally adjusting the rack for an advantage is cheating and i really dont understand how someone would think that it isnt.

I have no problem with someone reading the rack. that is a skill and one that takes time to master.
 
I'm actually surprised that with days of commenting about the break and how many dry ones there were that no one mentioned the 9 being racked on the spot as a result.

Cheating is creating an advantage for yourself that no one knows you have. That being said I feel that anything goes is the way Pro pool should be, it's all a skill that's available to all. So one guy can jump very well and you not so, is he cheating? Efren's 3 cushion background gave him an advantage in kicks, was he cheating?
All of this is pure bitterness and predominantly exist in pool the sport of 1000 excuses. That's why I wish people like Corey was able to sue of or what they have done to him. A guy goes out and spends insane time learning to understand the previously thought of most random aspect of pool, the break, and then told "sorry, that's not going to be allowed, the other players feel that this gives you and edge and since they don't have the time to figure it out and you didn't make it open source it's not allowed.

Ridiculous IMO
 
7forlife said:
Cheating is creating an advantage for yourself that no one knows you have.
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Eh? Weird definition.

Reading the rack and breaking accordingly is not cheating. Deliberately creating gaps in the rack for you to exploit is cheating no matter which way you look at it.
 
PoolBum said:
Again, I could be wrong but I don't think Boyes was saying that reading the rack is cheating, I think he was saying that racking the balls in such a way as to intentionally leave gaps between the balls is cheating.
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You might be wrong. I think the referee was racking the balls in this match and Karl was commenting about "the Americans" reading the rack being the equivalent of cheating. If the referee did rack the balls like I think, there is no doubt that the comment about reading the rack is just like cheating is an unprofessional comment.

If I am wrong about who was racking the balls, I will be happy to delete my post.

Karl Boyes, making that cheating comment, doesn't make him the devil, it was just an unprofessional comment. At some point in life, we've all done or said things that might be considered unprofessional by some people.

JoeyA
 
spartan said:
So Karl Boyes was guest commentator at World Cup of Pool Round 1 match between USA and Qatar.
He made some strong comments on racking of Shane and Mike Dechaine https://youtu.be/1XpqRlQQEwk?t=2124

Basically, he griped about rack reading by SVB and MD. He thought it is "massive advantage" and then exclaims that he considers it "cheating".

Is it sour grapes on his part?

I may be wrong but there is no rule against rack reading. Like in WCOP, players are allowed to view (or read) the rack but they cannot ask for rerack,
Maybe some rack experts can weigh in. :)
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I was reading the Art of War, and there are many references to take advantage of any weakness in the opponent, attack with your strengths, prepare to win the battle before it's fought, etc... Taking the idea that you want to maximize your win chance, I don't think checking the rack is bad.

It's close to the same thing as getting your opponent on 3 fouls instead of running out. If 3 fouls is easier, even if you have a pretty simple run-out, you can win by that as well even though it's "less honorable".

Pattern racking when the rule states they have to be in order is not included in that of-course.
 
Do you line up a triple combo or just assume its dead....that's basically what the cut break in 9 ball is. You're hitting a 4 ball combination and getting position on the 1 ball.

Milometer gaps in different spots make a huge difference in the break....I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Every notice why these pros break from different sides of the table?

I listened to the commentary from Karl, he mentioned a few things about the rack and I'll have to go back an listen again. Sometimes checking the rack can be considered a move, something Karl might know a thing or two about (reading the other related thread on the main forum).
 
JoeyA said:
You might be wrong. I think the referee was racking the balls in this match and Karl was commenting about "the Americans" reading the rack being the equivalent of cheating.
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I think he was talking about the U.S. Open at that point, not the WCOP.
 
According to Karl, you are supposed to just blindly throw balls in the rack, rack them and then not pay attention to how they are racked, and then not apply any strategy whatsoever to how you break the balls. You are just supposed to hit them hard and hope for the best. This is because "it's how he was brought up to play".

This argument is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. This is one of the most competitive games ever. Of course you are going to be as meticulous as you possibly can about every single aspect of the game, in a game that already requires attention to detail as a prerequisite to be any good at.

How you can blame a player for trying to be as good as possible at the most important shot in the game, is beyond me. If you don't want pattern racking, then don't allow the players to control the order of the balls.... What the hell do you think is going to happen? They are supposed to ignore the fact they want to win the game and throw the balls in randomly? This whole concept just blows my mind.

Nobody has an advantage here because everyone can do it, and yes back in the day no one did this, because they never thought to, it's not a legitimate reason in today's age. The only reason to complain about it is because you don't know how to do it, so you feel that you're at a disadvantage. So learn how to do it, or admit they are better than you at this part of the game, because they were able to figure it out.

EDIT: He really makes this sport sound like some simple bar game. Just go on n' throw em' up der and I'll wack em!
 
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as a professional pool player, who earns their living playing pool, why would you not know how to rack the balls? I think its pretty much agreed upon that the break is the most important shot at a professional level. if there is a way to give yourself a favorable rack and that method is allowed in tournaments/gambling, why would you not learn it? sitting around and complaining about just seems like your cheating yourself out of money. that being said, i like karl boys commentary i think he's funny and ads some flare to a sport that has some mundane moments. and as for the "karl hates america" thing, he did say he thought shane was the best player in the world so at least he gives respect where he thinks its due.
 
Perhaps, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

PoolBum said:
I think he was talking about the U.S. Open at that point, not the WCOP.
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Yes Karl was talking about the US Open 9 Ball Championship and Shane and Mike's ability to rack the balls but he was without a doubt referring to their ability to detect what the gaps between the balls means to the breaker. Karl was commentating on a match and made a general comment about "reading the rack" being the equivalent of cheating. He didn't say that adjusting the rack to create gaps was cheating.

Karl while he was also talking about the US OPEN it was very obvious that he was making that comment about the match because Mike and Shane were inspecting the rack AT THAT TIME, which Karl calls "reading the rack" & CHEATING.

His co-commentator even paraphrased Karl's words back to Karl to make sure he was understanding what Karl was suggesting and that's when Karl said that it was the equivalent of cheating.

Reading the rack has absolutely nothing to do with "fixing the rack" or "intentionally positioning the balls in the rack".

The bottom line is the comment was unprofessional. Now, in the Main forum there other threads are popping up about Karl sharking his opponents. I'm afraid there is more evidence out there that Karl Boyes has shown characteristics not associated with a professional.

Karl's other remarks about "these two coming from America and that sort of life" doesn't sound like a respectful comment either. It is obvious that he is attempting to impugn the integrity of America, Shane and Mike.

I'm not for bashing anyone because none of the pool players are angels. They're just human beings and human beings make mistakes. I'm sure Karl thinks he made a mistake in making all of those derogatory comments, but who knows, I could be wrong about that.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Yes Karl was talking about the US Open 9 Ball Championship and Shane and Mike's ability to rack the balls but he was without a doubt referring to their ability to detect what the gaps between the balls means to the breaker.
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If he was talking about players racking the balls for themselves and reading the "gaps in the balls" as he put it, then he was at least implying that players who rack for themselves and intentionally leave gaps between the balls, because they think they can read how the balls will react, are cheating. If that's what he meant, then I agree with him.

If he really was saying that even when a referee racks the balls that it's cheating to look at the rack to see if there are any gaps, then IMO that's just a silly thing for him to say and he's wrong.

Is the U.S. Open rack your own? If not, then I think you're right and he was saying that even reading the rack is cheating. But if the U.S. Open is rack your own, then it seems clear to me that he's saying the first thing I said above. I honestly don't know if the U.S. Open is rack your own or not.
 
I guess my point besides thinking his comment was unprofessional is the players Shane and Mike were NOT racking the balls, so why would you bring that up as a commentator and especially why would you bring that up as a fellow competitor, when you yourself have been labeled a cheater by some?

If you sling mud at others, you can expect to get hit with a mud pie or two yourself.

I agree with others that Karl Boyes can be witty at times and other than that cheap comment, I wouldn't mind listening to him do commentary in the future. Who knows, maybe Karl will admit to being out of line with that comment and apologize to his two fellow competitors. (That would clean him up quite a bit, imo).

JoeyA



PoolBum said:
If he was talking about players racking the balls for themselves and reading the "gaps in the balls" as he put it, then he was at least implying that players who rack for themselves and intentionally leave gaps between the balls, because they think they can read how the balls will react, are cheating. If that's what he meant, then I agree with him.

If he really was saying that even when a referee racks the balls that it's cheating to look at the rack to see if there are any gaps, then IMO that's just a silly thing for him to say and he's wrong.

Is the U.S. Open rack your own? If not, then I think you're right and he was saying that even reading the rack is cheating. But if the U.S. Open is rack your own, then it seems clear to me that he's saying the first thing I said above. I honestly don't know if the U.S. Open is rack your own or not.
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