Keith McCready got money from his dad to play money games against his dad. Unethical?

[JusticeNJ]

I don't even understand the title. His dad gave him money to play money games against him? Like if his dad won he got his money back and if he lost Keith kept it? Did he have two dads and one gave him money to play against the other dad?

Must be a slow news day in Holland.

 

[JPB2]

I don't even understand the title. His dad gave him money to play money games against him? Like if his dad won he got his money back and if he lost Keith kept it? Did he have two dads and one gave him money to play against the other dad?

Must be a slow news day in Holland.

In the book Playing Off The Rail there is an account of this. It explains it better. The book is worth a read.

 

[DaWizard]

Yeahhhhh.. If only it were that simple.

Some people's brain chemistry/circuitry are wired to get a supercharged dopamine kick out of gambling. No matter "what" they are gambling on. Many of the very best players in the US are gambling addicts. Win it at pool, lose it on/at the horses/cards/casino...

Viewed through this lense, "forcing" a kid to gamble is absolutely, 100% child abuse.

But hey... What am I saying? Exploiting our children for profit is part of the American way of life.. Nobody cares so long as they don't get to see the negative consequences, and are entertained by the young talent.

All that being said.. Keith is a treasure in the American pool scene.. Might he have had a very different life without the forced gambling? Maybe. Would it have been any better? Who knows? I have no dog in this fight. But what I CAN say is.... He is very much an example of "survivor bias". He turned out to be a fantastic player and a good gambler, so it all worked out... But.. What if he wasn't?

This shines some light on the matter. From a biological perspective it would not be smart to do this at too young of an age. The developing child brain could become extra receptive for gambling at later age (in theory) or already be more vulnerable for such dopamine shots. Just like children are an easy target for ipads and substance abuse at young age does more damage to the brain than later in life, at teenage years.

The survivor bias thing I did not think of either. There could indeed be many failed "Keiths".

On the other hand one could argue that perhaps this type of gambling is more skill related and not so formative to the brain compared to something like slots or alcohol.
And learning what it is like to be under (serious) pressure and winning and losing (big) could be a good thing to learn young.

 

[JAM]

I'd love to see the documentary about Keith McCready.

Keith grew up in a loving Irish family and had two older brothers. The family moved from Illinois to California when they were very young. Unfortunately, Keith's mother passed away from breast cancer when Keith was 10. His father never quite got over it and turned to drink.

Keith and his brothers used to gamble their allowance money in the basement on a bumper pool table. When Keith was introduced to a big pool room as a child by his father, he would sit quietly and watch the good players gamble. He studied their moves and learned all games of pocket billiards, and back then in the '60s, gambling was the norm in a pool room, unlike today's tournament soldier culture. The older players took Keith under their wing and introduced him to the art of gambling. Eventually, he'd rather stay in the pool room with his pool family than go home, and soon he was beating the older players at their own game.

When California State got wind of a child gambling and sleeping in a pool room under the tables at night rather than going home, they removed him from his father due to negligence, I guess, and made him a ward of the state. Fortunately, Bob Wallace, the owner of Bob's Billiards, was very fond of Keith and petitioned to adopt him, and he then gave Keith a good home with three squares and a bedroom at night. Pool at this juncture—and gambling—was very much a part of Keith's way of life.

Was it unethical for Keith's father or his foster dad to give Keith monery for gambling? Well, it depends on who you ask, I guess. Keith is who he is today because of it, and those who know Keith well enjoy having him as their friend. His empathy and love for fellow man, whether rich or poor, old or young, is Keith's best trait, a trait which actually developed from seeing the good, the bad, and the oh-so-ugly side of gambling.

Photo below of 12-year-old Keith in a straight pool exhibition with Cowboy Jimmy Moore. Keith ran 37 balls, and Jimmy closed him out in 4 innings because, according to Keith, Jimmy didn't want to lose to him. Ah, the world according to Keith. Keith said he did get to 70 points. Bobby Wallace is directly behind Keith with his hand underneath his chin. Bobby owned Bob's Billiards in Anaheim, California, the pool room where Keith grew up. Bobby also ended up adopting Keith to keep him from living in a foster home as a ward of the state. Keith is shooting with Bobby's Gina cue

 

[skogstokig]

wasn't dennis hatch pool story similar?

and there are a lot of things that can be considered unethical, from beauty pagants to forcing "a new tennis star" at an early age. i didn't want to go to all the football practice sessions when i was a kid, but still did go. table tennis i could play all day, noone had to tell me. if i would've had a pool table it would've been the same. not defending anything, just weighing the issue of consent a bit higher than whatever money is involved.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Great read JAM....and a well painted picture......Except for one part that is kind of hard to picture..........I can't ever picture Keith "sitting quietly"

 

[gregcantrall]

sleeping in a pool room under the tables

I recall reading of Efren doing the same.
I do appreciate your well thought out response. It helps having insights......and empathy.
A big thumbs up and give Keith a hug for me. Heck for all of us.

 

[JAM]

wasn't dennis hatch pool story similar?

and there are a lot of things that can be considered unethical, from beauty pagants to forcing "a new tennis star" at an early age. i didn't want to go to all the football practice sessions when i was a kid, but still did go. table tennis i could play all day, noone had to tell me. if i would've had a pool table it would've been the same. not defending anything, just weighing the issue of consent a bit higher than whatever money is involved.

Dennis and Shannon Daulton both went on the road at a young age. They both had family in their corner steering the ship, so to speak, and both of them are pool champoins in their own right for sure. Keith said when Shannon was a young boy, he was accompanied by his father to various pool rooms to engage in games of stake.

 

[garczar]

You have an opinion (which you have to voice) on everything? Sometimes just keep scrolling.

open forum bud and i'll do wtf i want. feel free to put me on ignore. i'll take it as a compliment.

 

[JAM]

From OnePocket.org, Shannon Daulton's Hall of Fame article is rich with info about Shannon's journey in life and pool: https://www.onepocket.org/ShannonDaultonHOF.htm

A snippet: Shannon Daulton was born April 5, 1972 in Somerset, Kentucky. Shannon was an only child and from about as early as he could stand at the table, pool was a major bond between Shannon and his father Gerald Daulton. “I owe 100% of my pool game to my dad – and my mom for putting up with it”. There was a table at home when he was small – up to 8. Gerald himself was a pretty good player, but more as recreation than with pro aspirations. He was a used car dealer, following in the footsteps of his own father. Bank Pool was Gerald’s best game, as it was the main local game, but in his work travels Gerald apparently discovered One Pocket, and of course he shared that interest with Shannon.

Shannon is a natural right hander, yet he shoots left handed. He won his first tournament against adults when he was just eight years old. “Anything we could drive to without me missing school, my dad would put me in.” And from an early age, that included action, not just tournaments. Gerald was one of those players that was not afraid to step up and play and bet something himself, and that seems to have rubbed off onto young Shannon.

Photo and article credit: OnePocket.org

 

[garczar]

I don't even understand the title. His dad gave him money to play money games against him? Like if his dad won he got his money back and if he lost Keith kept it? Did he have two dads and one gave him money to play against the other dad?

Must be a slow news day in Holland.

wooden shoes must be too tight.

 

[JAM]

Here's an interesting copy-and-paste of Keith's empathy for his fellow man on gambling. It's actually the first time I met Keith McCready, which was at a pool tournament in Maryland.

Keith and I went inside together after smoking a cigarette outside. He had a friend with him named Larry Lisciotti who kept me in stitches laughing all night long. Larry, Keith, and myself were a threesome, it would seem. I was actually having a good time, laughing it up at Larry and Keith. What a combo!

The three of us stepped into an elevator and in walks this cocky blond-haired kid named Pistol Pete. He looked right at Keith and said, "You want to play some 9-ball?" Keith looks at him and says, "Well, sure. How do you want to play?" thinking he'd want a spot. The kid says, "I know exactly who you are, and I'll play your ass even for 100 bucks a game."

Well, Keith was, shall I say, on the shortskies for funds. Larry and I had some dough, and so we backed Keith 50-50. Keith wins the first game, and the kid immediately racks them. Larry says to me, "Did he get paid?" I said, "I don't know. I didn't see any money change hands." The second game, Keith wins it easy. The kid wastes no time and racks them again. This time, I said to Larry, "I don't see Keith getting paid." Larry walks over to Keith and asks him where's the cheese. Keith said the kid was going to pay him as soon as he got change. I'm thinking WTF. Change? It's $100 a game. Larry then instructed Keith to demand to be paid after the next game.

Keith again wins, and it was the third game. Pistol Pete walks over to his case on the rail, packs it up, and scurries out of the ballroom like a snake making a quick get-away. Well, Larry and me jump up and run after him, with Keith in the rears.

Outside in the lobby, a heated colloquy ensued. Pistol Pete says he ain't got no money and there ain't nothing any of us can do about it. I thought Larry was going to kill him. I was giving him a verbal lashing. However, Keith was calm as a cucumber. He listened to Pistol Pete intently, while me and Larry were hammering away at him with our anger. Keith then said to him, "Look, Kid, you shouldn't do that to people. It's okay. You can leave, but don't ever do that again to anybody, you hear?"

I was in disbelief, as was Larry. I didn't understand Keith's reaction then, but I do today. It is Keith's interpretation of that kid's air barrel that is the real meat of this story. Anybody else would have tarred and feathered the kid, but Keith only saw a young'n who wanted to play a good player for the thrill of it at all costs, even if it meant an air barrel.

 

[garczar]

This shines some light on the matter. From a biological perspective it would not be smart to do this at too young of an age. The developing child brain could become extra receptive for gambling at later age (in theory) or already be more vulnerable for such dopamine shots. Just like children are an easy target for ipads and substance abuse at young age does more damage to the brain than later in life, at teenage years.

The survivor bias thing I did not think of either. There could indeed be many failed "Keiths".

On the other hand one could argue that perhaps this type of gambling is more skill related and not so formative to the brain compared to something like slots or alcohol.
And learning what it is like to be under (serious) pressure and winning and losing (big) could be a good thing to learn young.

More useless psycho-babble.

 

[Badpenguin]

Someone was apparently concerned enough to report the situation to the State, and the State removed him from his home. That is a drastic measure and indicates that things were going on that were far beyond unethical.

Not really a topic that belongs in a public forum.

 

[gregcantrall]

The telling of life's lessons can perhaps be helpful. Might influence just enough to help someone else to become a survivor, rather than falling Beneath the Wheel.

Beneath the Wheel is a novel by Hermann Hesse that explores the costs of academic achievement and the importance of personal development.

 

[stevelomako]

I'd love to see the documentary about Keith McCready.

Keith grew up in a loving Irish family and had two older brothers. The family moved from Illinois to California when they were very young. Unfortunately, Keith's mother passed away from breast cancer when Keith was 10. His father never quite got over it and turned to drink.

Keith and his brothers used to gamble their allowance money in the basement on a bumper pool table. When Keith was introduced to a big pool room as a child by his father, he would sit quietly and watch the good players gamble. He studied their moves and learned all games of pocket billiards, and back then in the '60s, gambling was the norm in a pool room, unlike today's tournament soldier culture. The older players took Keith under their wing and introduced him to the art of gambling. Eventually, he'd rather stay in the pool room with his pool family than go home, and soon he was beating the older players at their own game.

When California State got wind of a child gambling and sleeping in a pool room under the tables at night rather than going home, they removed him from his father due to negligence, I guess, and made him a ward of the state. Fortunately, Bob Wallace, the owner of Bob's Billiards, was very fond of Keith and petitioned to adopt him, and he then gave Keith a good home with three squares and a bedroom at night. Pool at this juncture—and gambling—was very much a part of Keith's way of life.

Was it unethical for Keith's father or his foster dad to give Keith monery for gambling? Well, it depends on who you ask, I guess. Keith is who he is today because of it, and those who know Keith well enjoy having him as their friend. His empathy and love for fellow man, whether rich or poor, old or young, is Keith's best trait, a trait which actually developed from seeing the good, the bad, and the oh-so-ugly side of gambling.

Photo below of 12-year-old Keith in a straight pool exhibition with Cowboy Jimmy Moore. Keith ran 37 balls, and Jimmy closed him out in 4 innings because, according to Keith, Jimmy didn't want to lose to him. Ah, the world according to Keith. Keith said he did get to 70 points. Bobby Wallace is directly behind Keith with his hand underneath his chin. Bobby owned Bob's Billiards in Anaheim, California, the pool room where Keith grew up. Bobby also ended up adopting Keith to keep him from living in a foster home as a ward of the state. Keith is shooting with Bobby's Gina cue

View attachment 802650

That has to be a very rare picture of the Ether with no side stroke.

 

[garczar]

I'd love to see the documentary about Keith McCready.

Keith grew up in a loving Irish family and had two older brothers. The family moved from Illinois to California when they were very young. Unfortunately, Keith's mother passed away from breast cancer when Keith was 10. His father never quite got over it and turned to drink.

Keith and his brothers used to gamble their allowance money in the basement on a bumper pool table. When Keith was introduced to a big pool room as a child by his father, he would sit quietly and watch the good players gamble. He studied their moves and learned all games of pocket billiards, and back then in the '60s, gambling was the norm in a pool room, unlike today's tournament soldier culture. The older players took Keith under their wing and introduced him to the art of gambling. Eventually, he'd rather stay in the pool room with his pool family than go home, and soon he was beating the older players at their own game.

When California State got wind of a child gambling and sleeping in a pool room under the tables at night rather than going home, they removed him from his father due to negligence, I guess, and made him a ward of the state. Fortunately, Bob Wallace, the owner of Bob's Billiards, was very fond of Keith and petitioned to adopt him, and he then gave Keith a good home with three squares and a bedroom at night. Pool at this juncture—and gambling—was very much a part of Keith's way of life.

Was it unethical for Keith's father or his foster dad to give Keith monery for gambling? Well, it depends on who you ask, I guess. Keith is who he is today because of it, and those who know Keith well enjoy having him as their friend. His empathy and love for fellow man, whether rich or poor, old or young, is Keith's best trait, a trait which actually developed from seeing the good, the bad, and the oh-so-ugly side of gambling.

Photo below of 12-year-old Keith in a straight pool exhibition with Cowboy Jimmy Moore. Keith ran 37 balls, and Jimmy closed him out in 4 innings because, according to Keith, Jimmy didn't want to lose to him. Ah, the world according to Keith. Keith said he did get to 70 points. Bobby Wallace is directly behind Keith with his hand underneath his chin. Bobby owned Bob's Billiards in Anaheim, California, the pool room where Keith grew up. Bobby also ended up adopting Keith to keep him from living in a foster home as a ward of the state. Keith is shooting with Bobby's Gina cue

View attachment 802650

Very enlightening. Great post here. I hate it when all the amateur AZ shrink wanna-be railbirds want to do psychological dissection on something they know next to nothing about. Stick to pool folks and leave people's personal lives alone. JAM's post should close this topic out.

 

[jasonlaus]

Someone was apparently concerned enough to report the situation to the State, and the State removed him from his home. That is a drastic measure and indicates that things were going on that were far beyond unethical.

Not really a topic that belongs in a public forum.

Wtf are you on about?

 

[garczar]

That has to be a very rare picture of the Ether with no side stroke.

kinda hard to sidewind it when you're reachin that far. great pic btw.

 

[Black-Balled]

Here's an interesting copy-and-paste of Keith's empathy for his fellow man on gambling. It's actually the first time I met Keith McCready, which was at a pool tournament in Maryland.

Keith and I went inside together after smoking a cigarette outside. He had a friend with him named Larry Lisciotti who kept me in stitches laughing all night long. Larry, Keith, and myself were a threesome, it would seem. I was actually having a good time, laughing it up at Larry and Keith. What a combo!

The three of us stepped into an elevator and in walks this cocky blond-haired kid named Pistol Pete. He looked right at Keith and said, "You want to play some 9-ball?" Keith looks at him and says, "Well, sure. How do you want to play?" thinking he'd want a spot. The kid says, "I know exactly who you are, and I'll play your ass even for 100 bucks a game."

Well, Keith was, shall I say, on the shortskies for funds. Larry and I had some dough, and so we backed Keith 50-50. Keith wins the first game, and the kid immediately racks them. Larry says to me, "Did he get paid?" I said, "I don't know. I didn't see any money change hands." The second game, Keith wins it easy. The kid wastes no time and racks them again. This time, I said to Larry, "I don't see Keith getting paid." Larry walks over to Keith and asks him where's the cheese. Keith said the kid was going to pay him as soon as he got change. I'm thinking WTF. Change? It's $100 a game. Larry then instructed Keith to demand to be paid after the next game.

Keith again wins, and it was the third game. Pistol Pete walks over to his case on the rail, packs it up, and scurries out of the ballroom like a snake making a quick get-away. Well, Larry and me jump up and run after him, with Keith in the rears.

Outside in the lobby, a heated colloquy ensued. Pistol Pete says he ain't got no money and there ain't nothing any of us can do about it. I thought Larry was going to kill him. I was giving him a verbal lashing. However, Keith was calm as a cucumber. He listened to Pistol Pete intently, while me and Larry were hammering away at him with our anger. Keith then said to him, "Look, Kid, you shouldn't do that to people. It's okay. You can leave, but don't ever do that again to anybody, you hear?"

I was in disbelief, as was Larry. I didn't understand Keith's reaction then, but I do today. It is Keith's interpretation of that kid's air barrel that is the real meat of this story. Anybody else would have tarred and feathered the kid, but Keith only saw a young'n who wanted to play a good player for the thrill of it at all costs, even if it meant an air barrel.

I didn't offend anything other than the ever-loved pool balls, but I got a story about his inside.

I was playing him in 1p event and at the late end, when he was like a ball or 2 away from winning, a shot came up and I asked if I could ask him about it and he humored me.

It was that shot where the ob was on his long rail and CB was near my pocket, a kick and stick shot where I could have a shot at more ball(s?), if executed correctly.

I knew my damn preferred way of shooting that ball was actually to 2rail it to my opponent's pocket and sell out, so I asked him to confirm the shot was on. He said it was.

I asked him if he thought it was a correct choice. He said he did.

I asked him to confirm it is a center ball hit and he said it needed hi, + he'd prob add a tip of inside to kill CB's uptable movement after impact.

I was ready to fire and did so. It did not go well and I saw him reach for the ball and then halt his grabbing. I lost shortly thereafter.

It was pretty neat to see his immediate reaction to be 'good lord no, not like that. try it again, fool'.

A brief moment.