Keith McCready's US Open monster stroke shot.

[Woodshaft]

Most powerful stroke ever by the most powerful man to ever play high level pool.

Definitely love the man, but the soft Elkmaster tip and the "shag" cloth and 5 inch pockets of "back-in-the-day" really help too lol.
Not a diss, just an observation from 39 years experience.
Draw was used (over-used) as intimidation back in those days, but it was also just easier to execute on those tables.
Doing that today with a medium layered tip, on slick Simonis cloth, on a procut 9-foot Diamond, is pretty cool too.
Definitely impressive stuff either way though--- love the older footage.

 

[skogstokig]

Unfortunately, from a fan's perspective, this is all too correct.
But in defense of the modern top players, they HAVE to "play like robots" to win.
The competition is just too good, the tables are faster, and the pockets are smaller.
You can't be "loose" anymore if you expect to succeed at the top level.

it's such a vague criticism anyway. what constitutes a "robot player"? perfect fundamentals? watch earl, jayson, drago in slow motion and you'll find out that their fundamentals are pristine. they just go through the motions faster.

is it specifically not having the jumping jack style of ismael paez and keith? this style isn't found in many 600+ fargo players today, for a reason. there's a hint of it in players naoyuki oi and to a lesser degree in pagulayan.

is it being introverted and not interacting enough with the crowd? this may be true more nowadays, but there are also players like gomez, alex, naoyuki, shaw that are interactive. some use that to calm their nerves. also, unlike in the 80'-90's, most players are not playing in front of their native crowd because the elite players are so international.

is it not missing many balls? if so i'm a proud robot fan.

 

[Woodshaft]

what constitutes a "robot player"? perfect fundamentals?

In a nutshell, yes. Sprinkle in a ton of consistency with it and you've got a Fedor Gorst clone.
Fedor's sitting on a cool quarter-of-a-million in winnings, just playing in the States this year-- twice that of World traveler SVB.
I wanna be a Fedor "robot" when I grow up, that's for sure!

 

[garczar]

This reminds me of when AP came to Tulsa shortly after winning a world title. He got down with Okla. legend James Walden and got BAR-B-Q'd. James put some shit on the Lion that turpentine won't get off. Alex was/is such a great guy to be around, win or lose.

Thought the people might like this.

 

[Black-Balled]

AZ's Jerry Forsyth (with the camera) sitting next to Weenie Beenie in the front row.

There's more than a few well known names in chairs sitting around that CA reunion.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...soft Elkmaster tip and the "shag" cloth and 5 inch pockets of "back-in-the-day" really help too lol.
Draw was ... easier to execute on those tables.

Agree about pocket size of course, but I think soft tip and shag cloth made draw harder, not easier - soft tips transfer less power and shag cloth rubs off more CB backspin before hitting the OB.

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

Agree about pocket size of course, but I think soft tip and shag cloth made draw harder, not easier - soft tips transfer less power and shag cloth rubs off more CB backspin before hitting the OB.

pj
chgo

The old slow cloth was much harder to get get max draw compared to a good worsted.

 

[Black-Balled]

 

[sammylane12]

Massey`s ferrule looks looks he is a chalk borer.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Keith breaks every "rule" of good pool fundamentals but he sure made it work for him.
He is fun(Earl also) to watch unlike many of the robots we have playing today.

Very unconventional for sure

 

[mikemosconi]

Unfortunately, from a fan's perspective, this is all too correct.
But in defense of the modern top players, they HAVE to "play like robots" to win.
The competition is just too good, the tables are faster, and the pockets are smaller.
You can't be "loose" anymore if you expect to succeed at the top level.

He is absolutely correct- the speed of the tables and the smaller pockets just demand the purest strokes possible most consistently to win. The older Gandy tables and Brunswick's had 5 inch pockets almost everywhere one went to play - the overall equipment just allowed for fast and loose styles against similar competition in the older days- not so anymore - the game belongs to serious students now.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Agree about pocket size of course, but I think soft tip and shag cloth made draw harder, not easier - soft tips transfer less power and shag cloth rubs off more CB backspin before hitting the OB.

pj
chgo

I'm thinking what he meant was can you draw farther and easier on faster cloth, but can you control it like you can on slower cloth?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm thinking what he meant was can you draw farther and easier on faster cloth

That's not how I read his post.

...but can you control it like you can on slower cloth?

I think you also get better control on faster cloth (not just easier action) - because you don't have to hit so hard.

pj
chgo

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Definitely love the man, but the soft Elkmaster tip and the "shag" cloth and 5 inch pockets of "back-in-the-day" really help too lol.
Not a diss, just an observation from 39 years experience.
Draw was used (over-used) as intimidation back in those days, but it was also just easier to execute on those tables.
Doing that today with a medium layered tip, on slick Simonis cloth, on a procut 9-foot Diamond, is pretty cool too.
Definitely impressive stuff either way though--- love the older footage.

Do soft Elkmaster tips really get more draw? I thought it was because the cue balls of that era weighed less due to over use.

 

[mikemosconi]

That's not how I read his post.


I think you also get better control on faster cloth (not just easier action) - because you don't have to hit so hard.

pj
chgo

Most older players never learned to stroke through the cue ball at the slower speeds demanded by faster cloth and smaller pockets. Developing the finely tuned stroke required to master today's tables, IMO, is much more difficult than controlling the CB on slower tables - I am referring to all of us older players who grew up on slower tables with larger pockets. - if those folks don't reinvent their game they are completely lost on tables like Diamond Pros- you simply must become a bit more robotic to be consistently successful on Diamond Pros when competing against the young, modern players who have been schooled on those tables with strokes that glide through the CB at more slowly accelerating speeds.

Whenever I enter pool rooms that have a mix of older Brunswick's and/or Gandy type tables - together with some Diamond Pro cuts- I almost always see the older guys stay completely away from the Diamonds. Personally, I am working very hard to adapt my stroke to modern table demands- I like the challenge. A lot of older guys have told me that they feel like modern equipment is like playing on ice rather than cloth - they have no control. Balls, cloth, rails, and advanced Climate control systems have all added speed to the table. Robots rule.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Developing the finely tuned stroke required to master today's tables, IMO, is much more difficult than controlling the CB on slower tables

I think you need a finely tuned stroke to control the CB either way - the degree of CB accuracy needed isn't different, but the force needed is. More force = more difficult fine control.

A lot of older guys have told me that they feel like modern equipment is like playing on ice rather than cloth - they have no control.

Sure, unfamiliarity, hardened habits, resistance to change, etc. can make things harder.

pj
chgo

 

[buckshotshoey]

That's not how I read his post.


I think you also get better control on faster cloth (not just easier action) - because you don't have to hit so hard.

pj
chgo

I tend to overdraw on fast cloth

 

[EL'nino]

Most powerful stroke ever by the most powerful man to ever play high level pool.

Jay, I think Jeff Ignacio would have to disagree

 

[maha]

the old wet cloth when we had no air conditioning was much tougher than today. you had to have a big strong stoke to get the ball around.
why even a 5 rail shot on the billiard table you had to whack it hard.
the super fast cloth has changed the game as far as stroking the ball. tight pockets not at all. just means you cant get around the table as easily but the fast cloth negates that.

put those with the delicate strokes on a small pocket slow wet table and see how good they get position compared to the old players when they were in their prime.. some would some wouldnt.

 

[ShootingArts]

I think while a big stroke is certainly nice to have, you can get by without one today even at the highest levels of the game. I remember my first encounter with heavy wet cloth after I had some mastery of the game. The cloth was deep enough that you got the railroad cross tie effect shooting across the table. You had to take it into consideration, especially shooting slowly. The cue ball curved in a little shooting towards the foot of the table, out a bit shooting towards the top of the table too. Some of the balls were wonky enough to need a solid stroke on that particular ball.

We can go through the usual back and forth but the older players had to have more knowledge than today's players, with the exception of jump cues and jumping with them. They also had to absorb the knowledge of the local conditions fast when traveling. With directional cloth in a fair sized pool hall there always seemed to be one table that had the cloth on backwards. The people in every room with the gaff table thought they had invented something new. I almost expected it and the trick was to act ignorant until the right moment.

I think a top player would be a top player in any time period. I do think that the old schoolers would adapt faster than today's US players, just because they had more wildly differing conditions everywhere they stopped. Today, conditions from place to place are much more similar. I think one advantage the Filipino players have today is being brought up on wildly varying conditions. They adapt very fast to any small differences in big event tables.

Hu