Kicking Accuracy

Andrew Manning

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
Hey everyone,

I'm sick of seeing pro 9-ball players play kick safes. It drives me crazy, because it seems to me an impossible thing to make hits that accurate on any but the simplest and shortest kick shots.

How do the pros make difficult kicks and hit not only the correct side of their intended ball, but frequently an exact contact point for a difficult safe? Are a large percentage of those kick-safes lucky, or is their some secret to kicking that I don't know that enables them to have such accuracy?

I'm not just looking for diamond systems, because those are about calculating approximate aim points for complicated kicks. I'm talking about straightforward kicks like long one-railers where I don't need any math to tell me what diamond I'm hitting towards, I just need to know how to make such an accurate hit that I can pocket the ball or play an intentional safety. So instead of finding an approximate aim point for complicated kicks, how do you find an EXACT aim point for more straightforward kicks?

-Andrew
 
Do you think it came easy to them, the pros? I doubt it.

But kicking out of a safe is an essential skill for any top flight nine ball player; Giving ball in hand to a skilled player with an open table is usually a disaster.

Practice, practice, practice.

Kicking, as much as anything, requires a lot of feel' feel for the speed, angle, side spin, rail speed, cloth, temperature, time of day, what you ate for breakfast that morning, if you loved ones harassed you about playing too much pool right before you left for the pool hall, ect.
 
Gregg said:
Do you think it came easy to them, the pros? I doubt it.

But kicking out of a safe is an essential skill for any top flight nine ball player; Giving ball in hand to a skilled player with an open table is usually a disaster.

Practice, practice, practice.

Kicking, as much as anything, requires a lot of feel' feel for the speed, angle, side spin, rail speed, cloth, temperature, time of day, what you ate for breakfast that morning, if you loved ones harassed you about playing too much pool right before you left for the pool hall, ect.
Click to expand...

Right! PRACTICE is the key. Watch Buddy Halls "How to Win from Here" ( or whatever) video for some good ideas. It is all CB control but on a very precise level. No easy answer other than study and practice.

To kick and just hit a ball you have a window three balls wide. To kick and hit the right spot/side on the OB, the window decreases to less than one ball wide.
 
On one rail kicks, the mirror system works very accurately for me. I think the most common mistake people make when using the mirror system is they don't measure from thier exact point of contact and just try and hit the ball.

You also have to know the table you're playing on, and make adjustments if it banks long or short.
 
Andrew Manning said:
... So instead of finding an approximate aim point for complicated kicks, how do you find an EXACT aim point for more straightforward kicks? ...
Click to expand...
There are several ways to work the one-rail mirror system (and its equivalents). Is that the sort of shot you mean?

Ron Shepard (over in RSB) has a way to make the angle of incidence equal to the angle of reflection which is usually not true.

One practice technique is to use a mirror or a mirrored ball. Bart Mahoney made and sold a specially mounted mirror for this. I described how to place the mirrored ball accurately in a couple of articles in BD which are on-line.

No system will work unless your hit on the cue ball is consistent.
 
Andrew Manning said:
How do the pros make difficult kicks and hit not only the correct side of their intended ball, but frequently an exact contact point for a difficult safe? Are a large percentage of those kick-safes lucky, or is their some secret to kicking that I don't know that enables them to have such accuracy?
Click to expand...
For multi rail kicks, I wonder if most pros use some kind of system, whether it's a mirror system, or a diamond system.

For single rail kicks, have you ever heard of the idea of "stunning the ball with a touch of inside"? That's what Ron Shepard of RSB suggests. I find doing this makes the mirror system very powerful, since most cushions will rebound "short" if you stun the cueball into the cushion with no spin. Just don't forget about squirt and swerve.

Fred
 
To expound on the fine post by SGM, when you are banking, you usually look at the shot and figure out where you need to hit the object ball so it will rebound off the bank and go where you want it to. When you are kicking, go to the other side of the table and look at where you want the cue ball to hit it. Then figure out the angle you'll need to come off the rail to hit that precise point. Practice this until it becomes as easy as banking. If you don't like to do drills, rotation is my favorite game for practicing kicks. There are some kicks where it is just too difficult to even hit the ball let alone where you want to without using some type of auxiliary aiming sytem. However, for those shots where the object ball is near the pocket or within a foot or so of the cue ball position and shooting cross table, you can get pretty darn accurate. Practice banking the cue ball into pockets from anywhere on the table. These come in handy for hangers that are blocked. When I am practicing or playing by myself, I will often kick at any hangers that come up. Don't forget to practice 2 and 3 rail kicks also.
 
Andrew Manning said:
So instead of finding an approximate aim point for complicated kicks, how do you find an EXACT aim point for more straightforward kicks?

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Andy,
I've got some good news, and some bad news. The good news is that this stuff is "learnable." The bad news is that it takes some effort.

Here is the way one "world-beater" did it.

Develop a perfect stroke; then learn your kicks.

Every day spread a rack, then shoot until you kick in all 15 (surprisingly easier than it sounds - rarely takes more than 15 minutes).

Spread another rack, kick at each ball 2 rails - remove any ball successfully kicked (just contacting the ball is enough, you don't have to pocket these), keep going until the whole rack has been completed.

Spread another rack, kick at each ball 3 rails - remove any ball successfully kicked, keep going until the whole rack has been completed.

Place 2 object balls and the cue ball on the table, then attempt "kick caroms". Hit a rail first, then BOTH object balls for a successful "kick carom". Play until you have done at least 10 successful shots a day. Start however you like, but the balls remain where they are after the initial shot - good luck.
 
Bob Jewett said:
There are several ways to work the one-rail mirror system (and its equivalents). Is that the sort of shot you mean?

Ron Shepard (over in RSB) has a way to make the angle of incidence equal to the angle of reflection which is usually not true.

One practice technique is to use a mirror or a mirrored ball. Bart Mahoney made and sold a specially mounted mirror for this. I described how to place the mirrored ball accurately in a couple of articles in BD which are on-line.

No system will work unless your hit on the cue ball is consistent.
Click to expand...

Link please. I don't know how to get to RSB.
 
Those safeties where it looks like they are hitting the perfect spot on the ball are often just as easy as hitting the correct side of the ball at the correct speed. I had a lot of trouble kicking until I spent a lot of time working on fiding center ball. I find that trying to use english when kicking makes it near impossible to kick accurately, because of how much it can change the cueball path. Think about how a beginner pool player needs to learn how to make balls with center ball and then learn how to use english. I think the same is true for kicking. When I'm kicking, I spend easily twice as long finding the center of the cue ball than I do lining up the shot. Of course this doesn't help any when you need to use english to get around a ball, but it works great for straight forward kicks. And as with most things, it takes practice, practice, and more practice to get it right.
 
mnShooter said:
Link please. I don't know how to get to RSB.
Click to expand...
Go to google groups and then the newsgroup rec.sport.billiard
The URL news:rec.sport.billiard might work depending on how your computer is set up, but you will probably have to do searching in google. Fred mentioned the idea as well: stun into the cushion with side spin appropriate to the kicking angle. I don't have time right now to do the search. Author is Ron Shepard.
 
mnShooter said:
Link please. I don't know how to get to RSB.
Click to expand...
RSB is rec.sport.billiard, a newsgroup on USENET. Before web-based forums like AZBilliards, USENET was the bulletin board forum center. Today, there are some 60,000+ newsgroups that cover everything from baseball to Harry Potter. If you type 'rec.sport.billiard' in your browser address field, your USENET reader (like Outlook Express) should pop up, but your ISP needs to allow access to USENET (which most do).

Another way to get to USENET is through Google Groups, found through Google.com and groups.google.com . It's an archive of all of the posts to USENET (formerly known as DejaNews). They also allow you to post directly to the USENET archives through their web-based software.

Anyway, RSB used to be a great place to get information on pool or billiards. Unfortunately, it has recently been laid waste by the dog-owning slow one.

Here is one of Ron Shepard's posts on the subject of kicking one rail:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/1e5a826603a99cdc?dmode=source&hl=en

Fred
 
Incredibly, it seems like the majority of 9-ball players are simply kicking to hit the ball, and as a result I've probably given this tip more than any other:

Regardless of your skill level, set higher goals for yourself when kicking at balls. If your objective has always been just to hit the ball, a target that's, what 2 1/4" wide?, then you can't very well be upset about failing when you try to kick more precisely, as in a kick safe, or trying to kick a ball in. I think of it this way: I wouldn't be satisfied if I was always missing a particular cut shot by 1/2", so I'm not going to settle for that when kicking, either. Obviously, it's much harder to get to that level of precision on kick shots, but if you don't set the goal, how will you ever acheive it?

I think you should start by picking out one half of the ball to hit; limit yourself to that 1 1/8" portion of the ball, and work on your kick shots based on your success rate at that level. When you don't hit the correct half of the ball, consider it a failure and commit yourself to work on that shot. If you get to the point where you can hit the correct half of the ball with regularity, then you have already created lots of possibilities for yourself as far as kick-safes go. Many times, just hitting the correct half of the ball will create significant separation b/w the balls to make it difficult on your opponent. As you improve, you can get more precise, possibly pick out zones where you would like the ob and cb to end up after the shot, and steadily make the zones smaller.

Another tip I generally give people is to kick without side-english in the beginning. I think it's best to get a really good handle on where the cb wants to go natually before trying to kick precisely using side-spin.

Without a structured approach like this, imo, it is going to be very difficult to become great at kicking.

Good luck!
 
Aaron_S said:
Incredibly, it seems like the majority of 9-ball players are simply kicking to hit the ball, and as a result I've probably given this tip more than any other:

Regardless of your skill level, set higher goals for yourself when kicking at balls. If your objective has always been just to hit the ball, a target that's, what 2 1/4" wide?, then you can't very well be upset about failing when you try to kick more precisely, as in a kick safe, or trying to kick a ball in. I think of it this way: I wouldn't be satisfied if I was always missing a particular cut shot by 1/2", so I'm not going to settle for that when kicking, either. Obviously, it's much harder to get to that level of precision on kick shots, but if you don't set the goal, how will you ever acheive it?

I think you should start by picking out one half of the ball to hit; limit yourself to that 1 1/8" portion of the ball, and work on your kick shots based on your success rate at that level. When you don't hit the correct half of the ball, consider it a failure and commit yourself to work on that shot. If you get to the point where you can hit the correct half of the ball with regularity, then you have already created lots of possibilities for yourself as far as kick-safes go. Many times, just hitting the correct half of the ball will create significant separation b/w the balls to make it difficult on your opponent. As you improve, you can get more precise, possibly pick out zones where you would like the ob and cb to end up after the shot, and steadily make the zones smaller.

Another tip I generally give people is to kick without side-english in the beginning. I think it's best to get a really good handle on where the cb wants to go natually before trying to kick precisely using side-spin.

Without a structured approach like this, imo, it is going to be very difficult to become great at kicking.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Very nicely said.
 
Williebetmore said:
Every day spread a rack, then shoot until you kick in all 15 (surprisingly easier than it sounds - rarely takes more than 15 minutes).

Spread another rack, kick at each ball 2 rails - remove any ball successfully kicked (just contacting the ball is enough, you don't have to pocket these), keep going until the whole rack has been completed.

Spread another rack, kick at each ball 3 rails - remove any ball successfully kicked, keep going until the whole rack has been completed.

Place 2 object balls and the cue ball on the table, then attempt "kick caroms". Hit a rail first, then BOTH object balls for a successful "kick carom". Play until you have done at least 10 successful shots a day. Start however you like, but the balls remain where they are after the initial shot - good luck.
Click to expand...

These sound like good things to practice. I'll work on these.

-Andrew
 
Sounds like most people are saying "practice, set goals, keep at it," and that's really the approach I was already taking (although I like the specific drills WillieBetmore suggested). I guess I wasn't really expecting any "mgic secret to kick-shot accuracy", and I was sort of just venting my frustration that pros make it look so easy.

Thanks for linking to the RSB thread with Ron Shepard's advice, Fred. It sounds good. I like his advice about really visualizing the entire shot "in the mirror" rather than just trying to imagine where the object ball would appear in a reflection. I think I'll work on concentrating hard on this visualization.

I'm a litle confused about his technique for finding the tip placement for the "natural running sidespin" to achieve "true reflection" off the cushion:

"The natural running sidespin can be a bit trickier, but
there is a geometrical system that you can use to find the right contact
point. This sidespin gives the rebound angle that is closest to the ideal
mirror-system angle. When viewing the cue ball from the rear, find the
point that corresponds to the exact opposite from the cushion on the ball
equator. Then find the point that corresponds to .4 of that distance from
the center equator to that point, and .4R above center; this point would
correspond to natural roll with natural running sidespin. Now imagine a
straight line (from your perspective) from this point toward the exact
bottom of the cue ball, where it touches the table. Find the point along
this line that corresponds to stun (this depends on shot speed, of
course). That is the contact point on the cue ball that will correspond
to stun with natural running sidespin. This sounds complicated in words,
but it takes only a split second to do all this in real time."

Can anyone explain that in simpler terms? He loses me in the description of how to find the exact point he's talking about.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
.

"The natural running sidespin can be a bit trickier, but
there is a geometrical system that you can use to find the right contact
point. This sidespin gives the rebound angle that is closest to the ideal
mirror-system angle. When viewing the cue ball from the rear, find the
point that corresponds to the exact opposite from the cushion on the ball
equator.
Click to expand...
If you look at:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AFLe2BATA4PEpp4kEpp2kbgC2qaYyPoint&ZZ2uBvH@

The "P" in the word Point is at the point at the exact opposite from the cushion.

The aimed ghost ball is at the exact mirror point, with the mirror point being 1/2 a ball diametr (one ball radius) away from the cushion.

Then find the point that corresponds to .4 of that distance from
the center equator to that point, and .4R above center; this point would
correspond to natural roll with natural running sidespin.
Click to expand...

Again, at that Cuetable layout, look at the cueball in the lower left. That point should correspond to a point 0.4R higher than the equator (a little less than 3/4 of the ball's height) and 0.4 of the distance between the center and that point above.

Now imagine a
straight line (from your perspective) from this point toward the exact
bottom of the cue ball, where it touches the table. Find the point along
this line that corresponds to stun (this depends on shot speed, of
course).
Click to expand...

Draw a line from that point to the very base of the cueball.

Any shot with hopes of "stun" would be at a point on that line no higher than the equator.

Any shot with hopes of running english has to be to the right of the horizontal line.

So, depending on your speed, you would go lower on that line if you're hitting it softer, and higher on that line if you're hitting it firmer.

I'm not sure how I draw that on the CueTable.

Fred
 
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