Last night at the pool hall I had my best hustle night to date.

Bishop:
There was nothing wrong with what you did. I read the story before it was erased. However, I do have some concern that your keep coming back to this thread to keep getting kicked by a gaggle of hens. Attempts at insults, like "did you take your winnings to Walmart", really should give you the idea of the childishness of some of the writers. You're being pushed around this post by a bunch of former school yard bullies and you keep returning for more. Some advice, since you can't kick them in the nuts and walk away, then just walk away. Be assured the silliness won't end with this thread. May want to change you log in and start over again fresh. There are a lot of sarcastic, know it alls that just wait in the side lines. It really takes a lot of enjoyment out of reading a lot of these threads. They're always there waiting with a jab, a barb or a finger in the eye. That's what they do best. Rest assured, it's frequently all they can do well.
Dr.C
 
crice9 said:
Bishop:
There was nothing wrong with what you did. I read the story before it was erased. However, I do have some concern that your keep coming back to this thread to keep getting kicked by a gaggle of hens. Attempts at insults, like "did you take your winnings to Walmart", really should give you the idea of the childishness of some of the writers. You're being pushed around this post by a bunch of former school yard bullies and you keep returning for more. Some advice, since you can't kick them in the nuts and walk away, then just walk away. Be assured the silliness won't end with this thread. May want to change you log in and start over again fresh. There are a lot of sarcastic, know it alls that just wait in the side lines. It really takes a lot of enjoyment out of reading a lot of these threads. They're always there waiting with a jab, a barb or a finger in the eye. That's what they do best. Rest assured, it's frequently all they can do well.
Dr.C
Click to expand...


Wow, that's kinda rough Dr. C.

I'm curious what you ar anyone elsewho thinks Bishop's behavior was justifiable thinks of the following. Are these also OK?

1. I bought shirts today for a team pool event next week. They cost $12 each. Is it OK for me to tell my teammates they cost $20 each?

2. If I'm matching up with someone a few towns over, and he asks how I match up with Joe. If I always play Joe even, is it OK to say Joe always gives me the 7-ball?

3. If my opponent goes to the bathroom, is it OK for me to nudge the 7-ball while nobody's looking so that it passes to the pocket?

mike page
fargo
 
The expected type of response

Just can't let go. Jab here, poke there, oops I missed his eye. Maybe next time. Silly, petty, shamefully pitiful bull. Get a life. The monitor should consider wiping out this horrid example of what a thread should not be like. It's an shamefully shallow and rivals the sick Walmart thread.
Maybe we should rename the forum to "Congregation for the Protection of Moral Values in Billiards". We can find some old time organizers from the Moral Majority to help with a political sub-committee. Hell, if we look close enough, we may even find a gay player or two. Wouldn't that make for a wonderul thread. We really have to worry. Some day if we all pitch in and scrub hard enough and chase away the gambling scum, we can elevate billiards to the moral statue of let's say baseball. IT IS A GAME. PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME. SOME PLAY NICELY WITH OTHERS, SOME DON'T. IT IS STILL A ****ING GAME. AS PERFECT AS YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOU'RE NOT THE MORAL KEEPER, OR PROTECTOR.
Geez what a sack ....................
Dr. C
 
Last Word of FREE ADVICE to anyone who try to Pull a Hustler in year 2006. remember what happened to Fast Eddie Felson in the Hustler when they BROKE HIS HANDS?

Worst things happen now like, someone putting a ROUND in the Back of your Head, and you are dead.

Sadly we live in a Society where the Value of life is Diminishing, and Law Enforcement is over work with too many Cases, and not enough Cops to SOLVE CRIMES.

In the Valley of the Sun I forget what Small percentage of Homicides actually are solved, but many are over MONEY...
 
mikepage said:
In a nutshell,

1. I won't lie to you
2. I won't quit ahead without fair warning
3. I won't gamble with you if you are drunk


Basically the rules of advocacy are the same rules a lawyer has in the courtroom, imo. The lawyer can't lie. Nor can he put someone on the stand to elicit what he knows to be a lie. At the same time he presents information in a way most favorable to his client's position. That's what I do.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...

Mike

Great explanation about the difference between honest gambling and hustling. You get a rep point from me for that.

I did not get to see the original post before it was deleted. If your summary is an accurate representation of what really happened, then Bishop and his accomplices truly pulled a dishonest hustle, supposedly on the grounds that he "thought" they were going to try to hustle him. That thought only arose, however, after he asked the cuemaker where the money games were in town.

Sounds to me like a guy who planned and executed a dishonest hustle (probably not the first time), was foolish enough to brag about it here, and now is trying to find a way to dodge the bullets coming his way.
 
Bishop said:
I went ahead and removed the story because a good portion of the posters here love to threaten and post insults rather than read and comprehend something before posting. I hope a few of you here wake up one day and magically grow a brain. I also hope one day insulting people and just generally being ignorant will cease here, but its doubtful.
Click to expand...

Bishop I wish you had LEFT the First & Real Story up for all to read. People forget within a day or two, and it was a good story... Be it true, or false...:)
 
mikepage said:
OK.



I'm a B+ player. Like I said before I've traveled quite a bit for work and I've gambled with strangers in more than half the states. So I've been in basically all regions of the country. I'm talking about relatively cheap stuff. I'm not talking about serious gambling. I also gamble fairly frequently with players I know around here.

Here's the core of my ethical guidelines.

*********
I won't lie to you.
*********

That doesn't mean I won't negotiate with you. That doesn't mean I won't seek to exploit what I see as your weaknesses. That doesn't mean I won't try to get an advantage.

But it does mean that I won't lose on purpose or miss a shot on purpose (defacto lies, imo) or tell you something I know to be untrue. I believe I've met a lot of people who have a similar standard.

A few weeks ago I was in Missoula, MT for one night. I got to the pool hall with my daughter (we were driving together moving her out to Oregon) just as the small (8 players, $10 entry) weekly tournament was starting. I won my first two matches and then got knocked onto the B side. The guy beat me 5-1. I judged him as pretty close in speed to me but i thought I might have the edge. I also thought he might believe he had the nuts because of the tournament match. I asked him if he wanted to play 5 a rack while we were waiting. I won six in a row and he quit. i also double dipped him (he had a 4-2 lead in the second set) and won the tournament. So I basically got $50 for the tournament win as well as the $30 he got for second place. I also made some new friends in the process, and there were no hard feelings.

In fact I can't think of a time where I left with hard feelings in either direction. There are many times I've won money in a strange place, and the players wouldn't let me pay for table time or drinks.

I'll usually go in in saying I'd like to play some $20 sets or something. I'm close to even but ahead overall. I've run into a number of players that play well above my speed. I lose a few sets--no big deal. I've never lost more than $100 to a stranger. I've won a couple hundred a few times.

I've lost to, amongst others, --

Victor Castro in San Diego
Neal Jacobs in Chicago
Jamie Fenton in Iowa
Josh Johnson in Quad cities IL
Tommy Hernandez in Quad Cities IL
Rick Stanley in Austin TX
Tyler Edey (from Alberta)
Barry Emerson (now from TX?)
....

all of whom I didn't know who they were when I played them. All these guys ran over me. None made it close or lost some early sets to get my nose open or anything like that.

In a nutshell,

1. I won't lie to you
2. I won't quit ahead without fair warning
3. I won't gamble with you if you are drunk

For example if I'm ahead three sets, and I need or want to leave soon, I'll say I'm only good for one more set. If my opponent wants to raise the bet to try to get even, I'll do it.

If I'm up 5 games playing by the game, I might say "I'm only good for five more games or so." Then if he wants to do a race to 3 for what I'm up, I'd go for it.

On the last one, I'm perfectly fine playing you if you've been drinking and you're getting a little bold because of it. But if you're actually drunk and have lost all sense, then I'm not going to gamble with you.

One time I was playing sets on a bar box in South Dakota, and I was ahead. My opponent alread switched from 8-ball to 9-ball to try to mix it up. Then, looking to turn things around, he suggested we jump on the Gabriels 9-foot table. The table happened to be the same as the table in my basement (they were bought together). I felt no obligation to volunteer this information. At the same time, I would not have said that I never play on a 9-foot table or anything like that. I might, however, point out to my opponent that he is a better shotmaker than me and that comes into play on a bigger table.

Basically the rules of advocacy are the same rules a lawyer has in the courtroom, imo. The lawyer can't lie. Nor can he put someone on the stand to elicit what he knows to be a lie. At the same time he presents information in a way most favorable to his client's position. That's what I do.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...

This was what I was going to say. You said it much better than I. I think some people, non-pool players and even some pool players, consider gambling and hustling as the same thing. While both involve money, gambling is showing your true speed, handicap or otherwise, and hustling is hiding your abilities to take someone else's cash.
 
crice9 said:
Just can't let go. Jab here, poke there, oops I missed his eye. Maybe next time. Silly, petty, shamefully pitiful bull. Get a life. The monitor should consider wiping out this horrid example of what a thread should not be like. It's an shamefully shallow and rivals the sick Walmart thread.
Maybe we should rename the forum to "Congregation for the Protection of Moral Values in Billiards". We can find some old time organizers from the Moral Majority to help with a political sub-committee. Hell, if we look close enough, we may even find a gay player or two. Wouldn't that make for a wonderul thread. We really have to worry. Some day if we all pitch in and scrub hard enough and chase away the gambling scum, we can elevate billiards to the moral statue of let's say baseball. IT IS A GAME. PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME. SOME PLAY NICELY WITH OTHERS, SOME DON'T. IT IS STILL A ****ING GAME. AS PERFECT AS YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOU'RE NOT THE MORAL KEEPER, OR PROTECTOR.
Geez what a sack ....................
Dr. C
Click to expand...
crice9, I doubt if many would agree with you, but that just is my opinion. That doesn't make me an old hen, or old man, or a protector of anything. Voicing your opinion is a long tradition. Too bad you think that supporting your opinion means actually calling names and acting just like that schoolyard bully you mentioned.

In the end, I suspect that 99% of the readers of this forum would be happy to match up with Mike Page, for money or not. I also suspect that the majortity of readers would have little interest in matching up with Bishop, certainly not under the circumstances he described.

DougT
 
DougT said:
crice9, I doubt if many would agree with you, but that just is my opinion. That doesn't make me an old hen, or old man, or a protector of anything. Voicing your opinion is a long tradition. Too bad you think that supporting your opinion means actually calling names and acting just like that schoolyard bully you mentioned.

In the end, I suspect that 99% of the readers of this forum would be happy to match up with Mike Page, for money or not. I also suspect that the majortity of readers would have little interest in matching up with Bishop, certainly not under the circumstances he described.

DougT
Click to expand...
Just because you don't agree with my story doesn't mean I don't or won't match up fair and bring my best game. I'm not a dishonest or evil person, I really do regret how I laid the story out. The problem isn't that the good majority of the people here have opinions its that they have no apprehensions doleing out insults and curses. Actually at this point I may just have to come up with a new screen name if I want to stick around, just so everyone is clear I'll apologize for my actions and I have learned a lot about sportsmanship and wagering from this thread. Thanks for the education.
 
mikepage said:
OK.



I'm a B+ player. Like I said before I've traveled quite a bit for work and I've gambled with strangers in more than half the states. So I've been in basically all regions of the country. I'm talking about relatively cheap stuff. I'm not talking about serious gambling. I also gamble fairly frequently with players I know around here.

Here's the core of my ethical guidelines.

*********
I won't lie to you.
*********

That doesn't mean I won't negotiate with you. That doesn't mean I won't seek to exploit what I see as your weaknesses. That doesn't mean I won't try to get an advantage.

But it does mean that I won't lose on purpose or miss a shot on purpose (defacto lies, imo) or tell you something I know to be untrue. I believe I've met a lot of people who have a similar standard.

A few weeks ago I was in Missoula, MT for one night. I got to the pool hall with my daughter (we were driving together moving her out to Oregon) just as the small (8 players, $10 entry) weekly tournament was starting. I won my first two matches and then got knocked onto the B side. The guy beat me 5-1. I judged him as pretty close in speed to me but i thought I might have the edge. I also thought he might believe he had the nuts because of the tournament match. I asked him if he wanted to play 5 a rack while we were waiting. I won six in a row and he quit. i also double dipped him (he had a 4-2 lead in the second set) and won the tournament. So I basically got $50 for the tournament win as well as the $30 he got for second place. I also made some new friends in the process, and there were no hard feelings.

In fact I can't think of a time where I left with hard feelings in either direction. There are many times I've won money in a strange place, and the players wouldn't let me pay for table time or drinks.

I'll usually go in in saying I'd like to play some $20 sets or something. I'm close to even but ahead overall. I've run into a number of players that play well above my speed. I lose a few sets--no big deal. I've never lost more than $100 to a stranger. I've won a couple hundred a few times.

I've lost to, amongst others, --

Victor Castro in San Diego
Neal Jacobs in Chicago
Jamie Fenton in Iowa
Josh Johnson in Quad cities IL
Tommy Hernandez in Quad Cities IL
Rick Stanley in Austin TX
Tyler Edey (from Alberta)
Barry Emerson (now from TX?)
....

all of whom I didn't know who they were when I played them. All these guys ran over me. None made it close or lost some early sets to get my nose open or anything like that.

In a nutshell,

1. I won't lie to you
2. I won't quit ahead without fair warning
3. I won't gamble with you if you are drunk

For example if I'm ahead three sets, and I need or want to leave soon, I'll say I'm only good for one more set. If my opponent wants to raise the bet to try to get even, I'll do it.

If I'm up 5 games playing by the game, I might say "I'm only good for five more games or so." Then if he wants to do a race to 3 for what I'm up, I'd go for it.

On the last one, I'm perfectly fine playing you if you've been drinking and you're getting a little bold because of it. But if you're actually drunk and have lost all sense, then I'm not going to gamble with you.

One time I was playing sets on a bar box in South Dakota, and I was ahead. My opponent alread switched from 8-ball to 9-ball to try to mix it up. Then, looking to turn things around, he suggested we jump on the Gabriels 9-foot table. The table happened to be the same as the table in my basement (they were bought together). I felt no obligation to volunteer this information. At the same time, I would not have said that I never play on a 9-foot table or anything like that. I might, however, point out to my opponent that he is a better shotmaker than me and that comes into play on a bigger table.

Basically the rules of advocacy are the same rules a lawyer has in the courtroom, imo. The lawyer can't lie. Nor can he put someone on the stand to elicit what he knows to be a lie. At the same time he presents information in a way most favorable to his client's position. That's what I do.

mike page
fargo
Click to expand...


This is a great post. I fully agree with everything you've said. You don't have to surrender information if nobody asks the questions. When people ask me if I've ever husled people or that I must have hustled people in the past I can gladly say that I do not hustle. I may not play my "A" game but I play just well enough to win. I personally have never been hustled, I never bet more than I can afford and if I don't know you, you aren't getting more that a few buck outta me. I even sometimes donate 5$ to players whom I know will kick my a$$.

N-E-ways that my .02 cents.
 
Bishop said:
Just because you don't agree with my story doesn't mean I don't or won't match up fair and bring my best game. I'm not a dishonest or evil person, I really do regret how I laid the story out. The problem isn't that the good majority of the people here have opinions its that they have no apprehensions doleing out insults and curses. Actually at this point I may just have to come up with a new screen name if I want to stick around, just so everyone is clear I'll apologize for my actions and I have learned a lot about sportsmanship and wagering from this thread. Thanks for the education.
Click to expand...

Bishop... Seriously, it's not that big a deal. I suspect you *are* an honest person. I suspect you hadn't really thought that much about some of these issues. And I suspect you made up a story you thought people would enjoy--and no doubt many people did.

Call me overly cycnical, but I suspect some of those letters to Penthouse weren't real either. You know, .... " I told my mon that at 15 I was too old to have a babysitter. Susie showed up wearing ... and said she wanted to call her college roommates over to study..."

OK OK maybe they're all real...
 
First beer and table time's on me

Bishop said:
Just because you don't agree with my story doesn't mean I don't or won't match up fair and bring my best game. I'm not a dishonest or evil person, I really do regret how I laid the story out. The problem isn't that the good majority of the people here have opinions its that they have no apprehensions doleing out insults and curses. Actually at this point I may just have to come up with a new screen name if I want to stick around, just so everyone is clear I'll apologize for my actions and I have learned a lot about sportsmanship and wagering from this thread. Thanks for the education.
Click to expand...

Hey Bishop, you get to the Twin Cities, or I get to Corpus, I'll spot the first beer and table time.

DougT
 
DougT said:
Hey Bishop, you get to the Twin Cities, or I get to Corpus, I'll spot the first beer and table time.

DougT
Click to expand...
Anytime that would be great I've lived in Dallas and San Antonio and here in Corpus there really isn't any good action and I don't mean gambling I mean just good ole fashioned playing. Seems like no one here really is good for anything more than a couple of hours, I miss the days of a nice 10 or 12 hour stint of good competition. Feel free to PM me if you are ever in my area.
 
Ok I think everyone was maybe a little harsh on bishop. I mean yeah he probably should have kept the story to himself if he hustled someone. But as stated earlier how many people read the old roadie stories and love to hear those. Do you hear anyone criticize Keith McCready for being a roadie and im sure in the beginning he dumped games to get bigger fish. The fact is most hustlers who made a living at it....did exactly that drifted into town...and played weaker players. If not, they could have not afforded to be on the road very long by picking top shelf players and risking a loss. That's just a fact of life, like it not. Another thing that amazes me it the ethical aspect of gambling. I did not realize gambling was ethical by law or religion.........just my 2 cents but I think its unethical if your gambling for a 100k or 25 cents....gambling is gambling.....the same as a sin is a sin. So basically either you gamble or you don't. If you do then you really have no right to condemn anyone... and if you don't then well you have your moral view...and in this country free to express that. That is what is great about this country. So in all I guess what im saying is if he can live with what he did then good for him. If he thinks its wrong then he has to deal with that. At the end of the day we all make mistakes, and in our younger years especially. The things we seen as acceptable then seem to change from year to year. So hell lets give the guy a break,,,,, its only hustling lol.
 
tshughes said:
Ok I think everyone was maybe a little harsh on bishop. I mean yeah he probably should have kept the story to himself if he hustled someone. But as stated earlier how many people read the old roadie stories and love to hear those. Do you hear anyone criticize Keith McCready for being a roadie and im sure in the beginning he dumped games to get bigger fish. The fact is most hustlers who made a living at it....did exactly that drifted into town...and played weaker players. If not, they could have not afforded to be on the road very long by picking top shelf players and risking a loss. That's just a fact of life, like it not. Another thing that amazes me it the ethical aspect of gambling. I did not realize gambling was ethical by law or religion.........just my 2 cents but I think its unethical if your gambling for a 100k or 25 cents....gambling is gambling.....the same as a sin is a sin. So basically either you gamble or you don't. If you do then you really have no right to condemn anyone... and if you don't then well you have your moral view...and in this country free to express that. That is what is great about this country. So in all I guess what im saying is if he can live with what he did then good for him. If he thinks its wrong then he has to deal with that. At the end of the day we all make mistakes, and in our younger years especially. The things we seen as acceptable then seem to change from year to year. So hell lets give the guy a break,,,,, its only hustling lol.
Click to expand...

Was there a reason you brought back a 4 year old thread and asked everyone to give the guy a break? :deadhorse:
 
ronshirley said:
Was there a reason you brought back a 4 year old thread and asked everyone to give the guy a break? :deadhorse:
Click to expand...

At the time I posted I was new and did not pay attention to the dates to answer your question. Are you writing a novel? Work for AZ Undercover Unit? I'm Kidding, I get what your saying. It was my bad........old, old thread.
 
Everyone's done it pretty much, don't sweat it. They should put up some warning or something when you click reply on a dead thread :P
 
CreeDo said:
Everyone's done it pretty much, don't sweat it. They should put up some warning or something when you click reply on a dead thread :P
Click to expand...


Yeah lol.....I got a negative rep by the guy above me for it.....lol...... I can't talk to you too long I'm in timeout!
 
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