it sucks you deleted it, id have like to read the originial post
Last night at the pool hall I had my best hustle night to date.
- Thread starter Bishop
- Start date
Don't jump into this thread and try to hijack it with this "high roller" act.PoolSleuth said:
Hey Bishop did you run straight to Walmart with the loot?
scottycoyote said:
To everybody... including Bishop... the fact that the original post is deleted tells us all... something... does it not??????
So that there's no confusion, I'll be more straight forward... had Bishop been proud of what he did, I believe that the post would still be there. In essence, it isn't!!!
To me, it doesn't make sense to let the whole thread stand and delete the story (in the first post).
And I want you to know that I'm not here to crucify the guy... as you should be able to tell from my earlier posts (which were intended to explain to Bishop why he was getting a ration of shit from a couple of posters)... I just think that it's important that those of us who read the original post... the hustle... make sure that those who didn't, understand the gist of Bishop's escapade.
I would have liked to read it too.
I would also like to say that gambling and ethics are definately inter-twined. Ethics are apart of man, his character, and his actions within the world. Ethical responsibility isn't something we should choose part of the time - but all of the time.
I would also like to say that gambling and ethics are definately inter-twined. Ethics are apart of man, his character, and his actions within the world. Ethical responsibility isn't something we should choose part of the time - but all of the time.
Regarding ethics & gambling
I'm not at all saying this is equivalent to what you did, but if ethics have absolutely no place in gambling, then you might as well not even bother with the formality of gambling, and just ask the other guy if you can see his wallet for a sec, and then take the money out and give him his wallet back.
Bishop said:
I'm not at all saying this is equivalent to what you did, but if ethics have absolutely no place in gambling, then you might as well not even bother with the formality of gambling, and just ask the other guy if you can see his wallet for a sec, and then take the money out and give him his wallet back.
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scottycoyote said:
The short version
He and his wife went to a poolhall to talk to a cuemaker about a shaft. While there he was banging balls and talking to the cuemaker first about other cuemakers and then about when and where people play for money in the area and how much. The cuemaker said come to such and such a place on thursday where he and his friends would be - there'd be lots of money games.
He showed up on thursday with a plan. His father-in-law and someone else, both of whom he pretended not to know, were arguing at the bar, etc. He ends up getting into it with them on the pool table with the marks watching. They bet lots and bang a lot of balls into the rail. He then gets games with the marks and when the money's big, his A game comes out. He leaves separately from his accomplices and picks them up down the road.
or something like that
mike page
fargo
I took all my winnings right over and promptly cleaned them out of their whole lot of shafts and cues, those things are going to worth some big bucks someday, not to mention they shoot lights out.Varney Cues said:Don't jump into this thread and try to hijack it with this "high roller" act.
Hey Bishop did you run straight to Walmart with the loot?
I more thought I was clever than proud, I don't pride myself on taking advantage of people I did however fail to put some of the mudane details of how I knew he was trying to set me up, personally I didn't find that to be the meat of the story. It was my ultimate demise with this whole thread.
I did use the word hustle cause thats what I did, I have, yes, hustled in the past but not with some plan I had in place, more or less just drawing some more money into games with some obnoxious a-hole thats acting the fool and generally pissing people off. A good majority of my table time is fun and drinking over 5 or 6 bucks a rack to cover table time.
I told the story because its a good one, and sometimes the people in this world that set out to take advantage of people get whats coming to them. With all that said last night about midnight or so I did lose about a hundred dollars playing 9-ball with a pretty good player. I had a lot of fun and couldn't tell you one way or the other if hustled me or not, but non of that matters because thats the risk I took playing for money and I had fun.
I'm not putting the story back up cause I'm tired of getting picked apart by something I just slammed together and posted. Had I put more effort into it, might of made more sense.
If anybody would like to add something here I'd like to take this thread in a positive direction.
What is the ethical way to gamble, what are the universal guidelines, how does an above average person find success betting? I'd like you guys to lay out what you think is acceptable actions. Do you always bring your A game and hope your better.
Is the game not mental and all skill, I guess I just draw comparisions to poker when there is money involved, do we think poker is unethical, doesn't the game change when there is betting involved.
I've gotten a good 10 or so PM's on this and I think 3 have actually made the poker analogy justifing how a game should be played when there is money involved and that anyone betting runs the risk of getting taken advantage of........thats why its gambling and thats why I'm bring it up, hopefully someone can bring some good info into this thread.
What is the ethical way to gamble, what are the universal guidelines, how does an above average person find success betting? I'd like you guys to lay out what you think is acceptable actions. Do you always bring your A game and hope your better.
Is the game not mental and all skill, I guess I just draw comparisions to poker when there is money involved, do we think poker is unethical, doesn't the game change when there is betting involved.
I've gotten a good 10 or so PM's on this and I think 3 have actually made the poker analogy justifing how a game should be played when there is money involved and that anyone betting runs the risk of getting taken advantage of........thats why its gambling and thats why I'm bring it up, hopefully someone can bring some good info into this thread.
ethical gambling - an oxymoron?
To my way of thinking there are two ways to gamble ethically with individuals. One is simply lay your best game on the table. If someone wants to tackle it, you haven't lured them in. The other way is to arrange a spot where you honestly consider your chances of winning a toss-up. A truly fair spot is pretty much impossible since it depends on how both players are shooting on that day so I simply don't play for money with friends.
I also concede that most people's reason for gambling is to gain money and that desire is not best served by a strict adherence to the ethics I consider the highest.
Years ago I lured many a would be hustler to my table when I drank a lot. I never woofed or did any active seeking of anyone, I just drank and practiced. If a man stalled mightily to let me win while constantly trying to raise the bet I considered them to be attempting a hustle and they were fair game.
I took what they gave me and then when they tried to tighten up and move in for the kill I took some more. No remorse when the hunter turns out to be the hunted. I think that this was what the original poster was trying to say. I don't know if he was truly being hustled to begin with or just thought he was. I missed the deleted first post and am just reading the recaps and later posts.
Hu
To my way of thinking there are two ways to gamble ethically with individuals. One is simply lay your best game on the table. If someone wants to tackle it, you haven't lured them in. The other way is to arrange a spot where you honestly consider your chances of winning a toss-up. A truly fair spot is pretty much impossible since it depends on how both players are shooting on that day so I simply don't play for money with friends.
I also concede that most people's reason for gambling is to gain money and that desire is not best served by a strict adherence to the ethics I consider the highest.
Years ago I lured many a would be hustler to my table when I drank a lot. I never woofed or did any active seeking of anyone, I just drank and practiced. If a man stalled mightily to let me win while constantly trying to raise the bet I considered them to be attempting a hustle and they were fair game.
I took what they gave me and then when they tried to tighten up and move in for the kill I took some more. No remorse when the hunter turns out to be the hunted. I think that this was what the original poster was trying to say. I don't know if he was truly being hustled to begin with or just thought he was. I missed the deleted first post and am just reading the recaps and later posts.
Hu
Bishop said:
Bishop said:
OK.
Bishop said:
I'm a B+ player. Like I said before I've traveled quite a bit for work and I've gambled with strangers in more than half the states. So I've been in basically all regions of the country. I'm talking about relatively cheap stuff. I'm not talking about serious gambling. I also gamble fairly frequently with players I know around here.
Here's the core of my ethical guidelines.
*********
I won't lie to you.
*********
That doesn't mean I won't negotiate with you. That doesn't mean I won't seek to exploit what I see as your weaknesses. That doesn't mean I won't try to get an advantage.
But it does mean that I won't lose on purpose or miss a shot on purpose (defacto lies, imo) or tell you something I know to be untrue. I believe I've met a lot of people who have a similar standard.
A few weeks ago I was in Missoula, MT for one night. I got to the pool hall with my daughter (we were driving together moving her out to Oregon) just as the small (8 players, $10 entry) weekly tournament was starting. I won my first two matches and then got knocked onto the B side. The guy beat me 5-1. I judged him as pretty close in speed to me but i thought I might have the edge. I also thought he might believe he had the nuts because of the tournament match. I asked him if he wanted to play 5 a rack while we were waiting. I won six in a row and he quit. i also double dipped him (he had a 4-2 lead in the second set) and won the tournament. So I basically got $50 for the tournament win as well as the $30 he got for second place. I also made some new friends in the process, and there were no hard feelings.
In fact I can't think of a time where I left with hard feelings in either direction. There are many times I've won money in a strange place, and the players wouldn't let me pay for table time or drinks.
I'll usually go in in saying I'd like to play some $20 sets or something. I'm close to even but ahead overall. I've run into a number of players that play well above my speed. I lose a few sets--no big deal. I've never lost more than $100 to a stranger. I've won a couple hundred a few times.
I've lost to, amongst others, --
Victor Castro in San Diego
Neal Jacobs in Chicago
Jamie Fenton in Iowa
Josh Johnson in Quad cities IL
Tommy Hernandez in Quad Cities IL
Rick Stanley in Austin TX
Tyler Edey (from Alberta)
Barry Emerson (now from TX?)
....
all of whom I didn't know who they were when I played them. All these guys ran over me. None made it close or lost some early sets to get my nose open or anything like that.
In a nutshell,
1. I won't lie to you
2. I won't quit ahead without fair warning
3. I won't gamble with you if you are drunk
For example if I'm ahead three sets, and I need or want to leave soon, I'll say I'm only good for one more set. If my opponent wants to raise the bet to try to get even, I'll do it.
If I'm up 5 games playing by the game, I might say "I'm only good for five more games or so." Then if he wants to do a race to 3 for what I'm up, I'd go for it.
On the last one, I'm perfectly fine playing you if you've been drinking and you're getting a little bold because of it. But if you're actually drunk and have lost all sense, then I'm not going to gamble with you.
One time I was playing sets on a bar box in South Dakota, and I was ahead. My opponent alread switched from 8-ball to 9-ball to try to mix it up. Then, looking to turn things around, he suggested we jump on the Gabriels 9-foot table. The table happened to be the same as the table in my basement (they were bought together). I felt no obligation to volunteer this information. At the same time, I would not have said that I never play on a 9-foot table or anything like that. I might, however, point out to my opponent that he is a better shotmaker than me and that comes into play on a bigger table.
Basically the rules of advocacy are the same rules a lawyer has in the courtroom, imo. The lawyer can't lie. Nor can he put someone on the stand to elicit what he knows to be a lie. At the same time he presents information in a way most favorable to his client's position. That's what I do.
mike page
fargo
Bishop said:
OK, I do see your point. However, I even think that there should be ethics in underground fighting. (There's even supposed to be ethics in wars.)
If two people get in a fight, I think a good rule of thumb might be that they should, at least, try not to kill each other, or do permanent damage to one another, if they can help it. Just my opinion.
before they started letting me work the tables awhile back all I could bet with the other kids was on the time of day. It sucked because thered always be a kid or two with a wrist watch.
This was all in the days of pre cell phone.
This was all in the days of pre cell phone.
PoolSleuth
Banned
Varney Cues said:Don't jump into this thread and try to hijack it with this "high roller" act.
High Roller is a Guy with a Roll of Pennys, that is 50 CENTS...
You've heard
of the 'School of Hard Knocks', it is the only way to cure 'Stupid', and even then it doesn't always work. And it is not limited to just the Pool World.
There is a difference between Hustling and a straight competition for money, just as there is a difference between being able to win and playing good.
When lessor players start observng the subtleties of Pool, their 'game' will improve. As they say, 'The devil is in the details', and we all have a little devil in us.
of the 'School of Hard Knocks', it is the only way to cure 'Stupid', and even then it doesn't always work. And it is not limited to just the Pool World.
There is a difference between Hustling and a straight competition for money, just as there is a difference between being able to win and playing good.
When lessor players start observng the subtleties of Pool, their 'game' will improve. As they say, 'The devil is in the details', and we all have a little devil in us.
ok thanks mike and bishop for the synopsis. I dont look down on Bishop for what he did.....although its not something i think i would do. My gambling code is pretty similar to mikes, i dont stall to get a game......i dont miss on purpose........ive been out of town and someone will ask how i match up with people from my area that theyve played before and I tell them.....and then they wont play and thats ok. About the only stalling I do is when some of the lesser players want to play me to see how their game is coming. I wont miss on purpose but I dont give those matches my all, i think its mainly a mental thing. But I wont defense them as hard as i can either, i try to make everything and thats pretty much it. They still lose but not as bad as it could be, and i never try to jack up the bet on them. But to me where there is money on the line pretty much anything is fair game......if someone hustled me I wouldnt be mad either, its just the cost of a pool education.
scottycoyote said:
Good Code Bro.
...since you asked!
Bishop...Playing poker you can potentially bluff, with a poor hand, and still win. Playing pool for money, you'd better be able to come with the shot, when necessary, or you will lose. Completely different examples, imo.
Since I was the first one to "jump" on you, I'll give you my two cents about gambling. I did it A LOT in my 20's and 30's...against all kinds of players, for all kinds of bets. I never EVER dumped, hustled (pretend you shot worse than you do), sharked, or tried to cheat anyone. Yes, I've always taken pride in trying to play my best every time. Back in those days (and to some degree, it's still true today), two people would meet, and try to match up. I don't know you...you don't know me...we set a bet and play some. If I get drilled, I'm going to ask for some kind of change in the game (weight, odds, etc), or I'm going to quit. If I drill my opponent, then they'll likely do that same. If it's close (and both of us are trying to play our best game), then we might go again, regardless of who wins. That's gambling.
That said, there may be some extenuating circumstances surrounding this 'evening' you wrote about. However, the way you described your actions, made it appear that you deliberately tried to screw the guy, for everything you could get...knowing you played a LOT better than him.
Should he have been able to see that? Maybe...but the art of hustle is not letting them know...even after the fact. Like others said, this story is probably best kept among your friends, via PM's, etc., rather than on a public forum. I personally still don't agree with it, from the perspective as you originally described it...but that's just my personal opinion.
The whole scenario reeked of COM's "two brothers and a stranger" con, which, even Fast Eddie said, at the end of the movie, "About that 'other' stuff kid, I ain't too proud." Lots of us, myself included, loved that movie...even the 'underbelly' parts (most likely ESPECIALLY those parts, for some viewers! LOL)...but it was a movie, and there are many of us who don't believe in that kind of behavior in real life...especially in the poolroom. I'm one of them...jmo!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Bishop said:
Bishop...Playing poker you can potentially bluff, with a poor hand, and still win. Playing pool for money, you'd better be able to come with the shot, when necessary, or you will lose. Completely different examples, imo.
Since I was the first one to "jump" on you, I'll give you my two cents about gambling. I did it A LOT in my 20's and 30's...against all kinds of players, for all kinds of bets. I never EVER dumped, hustled (pretend you shot worse than you do), sharked, or tried to cheat anyone. Yes, I've always taken pride in trying to play my best every time. Back in those days (and to some degree, it's still true today), two people would meet, and try to match up. I don't know you...you don't know me...we set a bet and play some. If I get drilled, I'm going to ask for some kind of change in the game (weight, odds, etc), or I'm going to quit. If I drill my opponent, then they'll likely do that same. If it's close (and both of us are trying to play our best game), then we might go again, regardless of who wins. That's gambling.
That said, there may be some extenuating circumstances surrounding this 'evening' you wrote about. However, the way you described your actions, made it appear that you deliberately tried to screw the guy, for everything you could get...knowing you played a LOT better than him.
Should he have been able to see that? Maybe...but the art of hustle is not letting them know...even after the fact. Like others said, this story is probably best kept among your friends, via PM's, etc., rather than on a public forum. I personally still don't agree with it, from the perspective as you originally described it...but that's just my personal opinion.
The whole scenario reeked of COM's "two brothers and a stranger" con, which, even Fast Eddie said, at the end of the movie, "About that 'other' stuff kid, I ain't too proud." Lots of us, myself included, loved that movie...even the 'underbelly' parts (most likely ESPECIALLY those parts, for some viewers! LOL)...but it was a movie, and there are many of us who don't believe in that kind of behavior in real life...especially in the poolroom. I'm one of them...jmo!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com