LD and Power

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I don't recall any discussion here (and don't find it on Dr. Dave's FAQ) about whether low deflection affects power transferred to the CB. If there is an effect I guess it must be a decrease in power transferred - and I wonder if that's why LD shafts don't jump as well.

Anybody know anything about this? Was there a discussion here that I missed/forgot? Dr. Dave, did I miss this on your site? Has it been measured?

Thanks for any info/comments.

pj
chgo
 
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The_JV

Local_Pro
There was a discussion about "banning jump cues" recently, that dipped a toe into LD shafts blowing for jumps.

Long story short... If you can manage to strike the CB dead center on axis to the LD shaft, then there in theory should be zero loss in energy transfer comparably to a solid shaft. However, once you shift off center, then of course the nature of a so called "LD" shaft comes into play. The energy required to bend the LD shaft would not be available to accelerate the CB, so I guess it stands to reason that power transfer suffers...

One could argue that the solid shaft squirts the CB more with an off center hit, but that could be compensated for with aim. Whether energy required to squirt the CB is equal to the energy required to bend the LD is something that would need to be calculated by someone way smarter than I.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
If you can manage to strike the CB dead center on axis to the LD shaft, then there in theory should be zero loss in energy transfer comparably to a solid shaft.
Would a thinner shaft compress more longitudinally? What about a hollow one?

pj
chgo
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’ve been playing with 12mm shafts....somewhat carom taper....I call them LD with guts.
Alex was playing with a Mezz shaft for a few years...it’s the only LD I hit with that resembled my solid wood shafts.
I haven’t hit with all the LDs but the ones I have seemed weaker.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't recall any discussion here (and don't find it on Dr. Dave's FAQ) about whether low deflection affects power transferred to the CB. If there is an effect I guess it must be a decrease in power transferred - and I wonder if that's why LD shafts don't jump as well.

Anybody know anything about this?
A jump is performed by imparting enough energy into the CB so it rises off the table, and coincidentally, the shaft must deflect out of the rising CB's way. The low deflection shaft does not deflect out of the rising CB's way as far/easily. So, this may NOT have anything to do with energy transmittal.

Since LD shafts are used as break shafts, any loss in energy transmittal is (at most) rather small.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve been playing with 12mm shafts....somewhat carom taper....I call them LD with guts.
Alex was playing with a Mezz shaft for a few years...it’s the only LD I hit with that resembled my solid wood shafts.
I haven’t hit with all the LDs but the ones I have seemed weaker.
I have a 13.2mm Predator 314-2 FAT shaft and I can feel that it doesn’t have the same “power” as my fat normal shafts on the same butt.

It feels like it “buckles” a bit when the flex happens on power shots.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
A jump is performed by imparting enough energy into the CB so it rises off the table
Yep, that's why the question arises in my so-called mind.
the shaft must deflect out of the rising CB's way. The low deflection shaft does not deflect out of the rising CB's way as far/easily.
"Low deflection" means less cue ball deflection ("squirt"), not less shaft flexibility. In fact, most claims about shaft flexibility are that more shaft deflection = less squirt (although in reality they have little to do with each other).
Since LD shafts are used as break shafts, any loss in energy transmittal is (at most) rather small.
Maybe. But is it enough to hamper jumping?

Thanks for the thoughts.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I have a 13.2mm Predator 314-2 FAT shaft and I can feel that it doesn’t have the same “power” as my fat normal shafts on the same butt.

It feels like it “buckles” a bit when the flex happens on power shots.
That's my "feeling" about it too - but I wonder if I'm suffering from confirmation bias. Does it feel that way on centerball hits too?

pj
chgo
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
A jump is performed by imparting enough energy into the CB so it rises off the table, and coincidentally, the shaft must deflect out of the rising CB's way. The low deflection shaft does not deflect out of the rising CB's way as far/easily. So, this may NOT have anything to do with energy transmittal.

Since LD shafts are used as break shafts, any loss in energy transmittal is (at most) rather small.
Ok, we need to get on the same page... You kinda all over the place in the first paragraph. Here's how "jumping" works and why shafts coined as "low deflection" suck for it.

A "jump" is actually excessive CB squirt. Not that you implied it, but the CB isn't compressing. It's simply being pinched between the slate and the cue tip. How do you maximized CB squirt...? You use a shaft that does not bend easily. So, that means a solid wood shaft or a hollow shaft that is loaded (filled) with some other rigid material. I was just recently given a "jump" shaft that would otherwise be solid wood. However it's been drilled and uses a penolic ferrule that also extends down in the drilled out void. It jumps like a beast. Why...?..., because the end of the shaft is extremely rigid, and therefore maximizes the "pinch" of the CB. A shaft that gets out of the way, does a poor job of "pinching" the CB. So you never see a traditional LD shaft used for jumping. It simply bends too much..

I could use a piece of rolled up tissue paper as a breaker. That doesn't mean it's good at transmitting energy into the CB. LD shafts are used as breakers because of the forgiveness with off center hits on the CB. It's a means to correct for bad form. If you miss hit during the break with a solid maple shaft and a hard tip you're in for a horrible break. Now swap in a LD shaft, and it will absorb some of that energy that would have otherwise squirted the CB off your shot path.

Hope this helps
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Don't think so...

pj
chgo
It's always good to have opinions.... I think your wrong. Stale mate I suppose...lol

Facetious comment aside. I could, I suppose, add some clarity to my opinion. I don't know it to be a fact, so I'll stick to calling it opinion.

"Squirt" as we generally refer to it, is the result of an off axial force being exerted into the CB. I suppose calling a jump excessive squirt is inaccurate in those terms. In reality the CB is being pinched between the slate and cue tip. The compound angle of the slate/tip face generate the angle to which the CB will travel as it attempts to exit the pinching force of the shot. The rigid cue will push the ball away rather than bend, so that is "squirt"

When spinning the concept of the CB pinch in my mind and thinking of a way to express it. I thought of other things that you would pinch and the result. The first one that jumped into my mind was when as teenagers in school, we would squeeze orange peels and squirt the juice into buddy's eyes. Ya I know...., pretty juvenile. However, it what came to mind and why I used "squirt". Might not be the most accurate term, but I haven't heard a better one yet.
 
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Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't recall any discussion here (and don't find it on Dr. Dave's FAQ) about whether low deflection affects power transferred to the CB. If there is an effect I guess it must be a decrease in power transferred - and I wonder if that's why LD shafts don't jump as well.

Anybody know anything about this? Was there a discussion here that I missed/forgot? Dr. Dave, did I miss this on your site? Has it been measured?

Thanks for any info/comments.

pj
chgo
I'm able to transfer MORE spinning speed to the object ball....and the cue ball like never before. It's allot easier to steer the obj. ball with cue ball spin than before.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I would surmise that LD shafts do not transfer power as well a solid shaft on off center ball hits. On center ball hits I dont think there is a difference. I have a McDermott G-Core which some people say is not an LD shaft but it does have a short ferule and a drilled out shaft, I also have a Predator 314 Z, both of these vibrate when I hit very low on the cue ball for a draw shot, my solid shafts do not do this. I have always assumed this was because of cue deflection, if that is the case that would be wasted energy.
 

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't recall any discussion here (and don't find it on Dr. Dave's FAQ) about whether low deflection affects power transferred to the CB. If there is an effect I guess it must be a decrease in power transferred - and I wonder if that's why LD shafts don't jump as well.

Anybody know anything about this? Was there a discussion here that I missed/forgot? Dr. Dave, did I miss this on your site? Has it been measured?

Thanks for any info/comments.

pj
chgo
I have been a user of regular maple shafts for over twenty years, and I made the switch to a Cynergy in the last year. I have always been a terrible jumper with any cue.

The second I hit a ball with my Cynergy shaft, it is like someone gave the cue ball a turbo charged V12 whereas before it was just running a V6. On non-jump shots the cue ball travels further with less effort. In my view, the difference between my Cynergy and a maple shaft is not a small one when it comes to this characteristic.

It may be that the Cynergy and other LD shafts stink at jumping, but I couldn't do that well anyway. If your questions was really more about jumping than power imparted on non-jump shots then, I guess this post wasn't very responsive. However, for some reason, I do believe the Cynergy imparts more energy into a cue ball on regular shots. I think this is because the CF is so resistant to flexing. Just my 0.02.

kollegedave
 

terpdad

Registered
I'm able to transfer MORE spinning speed to the object ball....and the cue ball like never before. It's allot easier to steer the obj. ball with cue ball spin than before.
I noticed this too. I got a new cue & can't move the cueball nearly as well yet. Tips & shaft diameters on old & new cue are equivalent, but the old cue has a 314-3. Could be a lot of reasons for this- experience, confidence, taper, materials used, etc.- but it was a disappointing surprise for sure.
 

terpdad

Registered
This goes against my understanding.

Have you tested it? I can describe an easy way if you're interested.

pj
chgo
The only test was using one cue Tuesday night & another the next. I would estimate I was consistently getting 12+ inches on draw shots w/ the Predator. Like I said though, could be lots of reasons. I'd been playing w/ one cue exclusively for 18 months & the other for 2 days. Don't have the new cue right now, so I can't run a more scientific test.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Don't have the new cue right now, so I can't run a more scientific test.
Here's the test in case you want to do it later. This doesn't test power transfer, only the amount of spin effect with a given tip offset (essentially measuring the spin-to-speed ratio).

1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.


5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.

6. Measure the spin effect by where the CB strikes the near rail on returning - it should be around 3 diamonds to the side. Is there any difference between cues?


pj
chgo
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, we need to get on the same page... You kinda all over the place in the first paragraph. Here's how "jumping" works and why shafts coined as "low deflection" suck for it.

A "jump" is actually excessive CB squirt. Not that you implied it, but the CB isn't compressing. It's simply being pinched between the slate and the cue tip. How do you maximized CB squirt...? You use a shaft that does not bend easily. So, that means a solid wood shaft or a hollow shaft that is loaded (filled) with some other rigid material. I was just recently given a "jump" shaft that would otherwise be solid wood. However it's been drilled and uses a penolic ferrule that also extends down in the drilled out void. It jumps like a beast. Why...?..., because the end of the shaft is extremely rigid, and therefore maximizes the "pinch" of the CB. A shaft that gets out of the way, does a poor job of "pinching" the CB. So you never see a traditional LD shaft used for jumping. It simply bends too much..

I could use a piece of rolled up tissue paper as a breaker. That doesn't mean it's good at transmitting energy into the CB. LD shafts are used as breakers because of the forgiveness with off center hits on the CB. It's a means to correct for bad form. If you miss hit during the break with a solid maple shaft and a hard tip you're in for a horrible break. Now swap in a LD shaft, and it will absorb some of that energy that would have otherwise squirted the CB off your shot path.

Hope this helps
I tend to agree on the jump-shot. I don't know the exact physics/dynamics of the jump action at impact but i do know that stiff, hi-squirt cues jump way better than low-def. cues. First time i tried a Pred. 314 i couldn't hop a ball for shit. With my stiff, ivory ferruled R. Black shaft i could jump a ball at will.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
... stiff, hi-squirt cues jump way better than low-def. cues.
Definitely true, except maybe for the "stiff" part. My cue, for instance, is very stiff (conical taper) yet jumps like crap because of its low squirt. So I question whether stiffness is a major part of the explanation. But I also question whether squirt itself is a major part of it.

I theorize that there's more "buckling" at impact with lower squirt cues because of their reduced end mass, reducing power transfer - but in my theory this isn't the same as "deflecting" because of more sideways flexibility. In other words, I suspect LD's jump problem is due to reduced power, not reduced squirt.

pj
chgo
 
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