LD vs regular shafts

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
The issue with those squirt test is the CB speed used is no where near the actual CB speed used in actual play.

A CB speed of 1 mph is 17.6 inches per second. There was a graph that started at 3 mph or 52.8 inches per second......that’s over 1/2 the table length.

If people are having issues with squirt, it causes they don’t know how to stroke the ball, they are still hitting the ball. The farther off center, a slower stroke speed is need. When center ball is used, you can stroke as hard as you want, like a break shot.

Test setups that do not reflect real world situations are useless.......and this is from a testing engineer.
 
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JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
You know, most times it's better to remain silent and perhaps be thought a fool, rather than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Said the guy debating an empirical fact by name calling. :wink:

Or should I give the benefit of a doubt, and assume this refers to my first paragraph?? I wouldn't debate that it's indeed, debatable! :boring2:
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
Neither add up but 911 is even crazier... For me, the single strangest thing is the news reporting the collapse of building 3 well before it collapsed... Then there's the way it went down, by all demolition experts standards, like a perfectly executed demolition... There's a large contingent of Scientists and Structural Engineers who've studied those buildings and are adamant they could not have collapsed as reported... Wasn't there some high-ranking official caught smuggling out documents in his shorts before the "911 Commission"? lol


One interesting question is, where did the Thermite come from? High grade Thermite. Liquid metal was dripping from the buildings, during the tv footage.

I don't know the answer myself, but that is one of many interesting questions.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
A CB speed of 1 mph is 17.6 inches per second. There was a graph that started at 3 mph or 52.8 inches per second......that’s over 1/2 the table length.
Fascinating but meaningless.

The farther off center, a slower stroke speed is need.
Needed for what? Stroke speed has nothing to do with squirt (except swerve may increase at slower speed).

...and this is from a testing engineer.
Yes, it’s surprising.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
There's a large contingent of Scientists and Structural Engineers who've studied those buildings and are adamant they could not have collapsed as reported...
Hillary did it with her emails - or Obama with his “birth certificate” - I can’t keep ‘em all straight.

pj
chgo
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Here's a quick-and-dirty calculation based on "pivot lengths".

A shaft's pivot length is the distance from the tip to pivot in order to compensate for that shaft's squirt (ignoring "swerve"). It's also the distance of CB travel at which it will go offline the same distance as the tip's offset from center CB (in this case the tip offset is assumed to be 9/16", or maximum). So with that (and a little trig) the shaft's squirt angle for the chosen tip offset can be calculated.

The "Squirt Grades" are my subjective grades - you might grade them differently.

For easier visualization, the last column shows how far the CB goes offline (without swerve) for a 30" shot (about average, I think).

pj
chgo

View attachment 518851

If those numbers truly reflect practical differences using a normal stroke wouldn't it be virtually impossible to pocket a ball without a low deflection shaft? These seem like some sort of extreme condition.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
Just a bit of background here first. I'm the originator and author of the Target Ball Concept and the next book The Flight of the Cue Ball which deals mainly with Side Spin. I don't usually go into the detail I'm going to go into today on here because Aiming is subjective however you can make things difficult if you want to.

The core of my system involves perceptions that are different than any other I've seen published and yes when I was done with my material I took a test drive through several of them just to see what they were about.

The post by Patrick below is pretty accurate in anyone's book and while its probably very factual, "Can you use the information in order to find something to hang onto while at the table? Yes if you're that interested you might could,' however the more general you can make something the more useable it is during application.

I found a way to simplify the information in my Side Spin book so as to make the differences between LD and other shafts easier to comprehend in a visual sense. I used 3 basic squirt types of shafts to base my studies on. Factory shafts 8 in taper both plastic in nature ferrules and Ivory as well as 15in long pro taper shafts at 12.75 and 12.80 and LD shafts. I used various LD's by borrowing them testing them, using them and by the end of the book I decided to switch to LD shafts to see if that was something I wanted in my game. I purchased two Jacoby Hybrid shafts used one a bit thinner than the other but both around 12.75. I play with the thicker of the two and play well with them.

Recently I decided to try one of the shafts (natural maple 12.80mm) that I keep for my Pechauer break cue and see how I would do with it after going LD for a little over a year.

I already know how to use a pivot point to assist me in this and even then I had a difficult time adjusting to the level of play I've become accustomed to.

All in all the adjustments are smaller. The adjustments are dependent on distance of the object ball to the cue ball but no one else seems to want to address that so I did in my book.

Sure its what you get used to but the differences I've experienced using LD don't log enough downside to make me want to go back. After all more allowance needed = more likelihood of a miss in my factoring mind.

If you're having trouble now with natural shafts of any kind LD may be for you but figure on switching for good when you switch or buy used to test it out. If you don't like an LD then get rid of it and try another LD.

The differences in LD shafts aren't so dramatic as it pertains to squirt/allowances needed. It has more to do with how the shaft is made and whether or not its good for you in terms of hit and how it feels when the tip is applied to the cue ball there are some differences in the torque/spin I can't explain scientifically but I can't play with a Z3 shaft. I'm sure I could get used to it but its far enough from my current style that I'd rather not. I'm sure there are differences in other shafts as well. Read up and choose what sounds like its you.

There may be reasons the difference is minimal to you now. I've been at that place but once you get a shaft firmly planted into your game your subconcious adjustments will accept what you're using and you'll know you're set up right with side spin on a shot with your normal equipment to the point that when you change it will be hard to switch. If you're not using Side Spin a great deal that would be another reason they seem to not have big differences. Center Top and Bottom and give you a lot with any shaft but if that was all the selections needed why even have LD?

I'm not playing near as much as I was but I'm playing One Pocket and that game needs Side Spin.



What's the approximate deflection % difference between a LD shaft & a regular shaft? I've been using a LD shaft for about 6 months now & the difference seems minimal.

Here's a quick-and-dirty calculation based on "pivot lengths".

A shaft's pivot length is the distance from the tip to pivot in order to compensate for that shaft's squirt (ignoring "swerve"). It's also the distance of CB travel at which it will go offline the same distance as the tip's offset from center CB (in this case the tip offset is assumed to be 9/16", or maximum). So with that (and a little trig) the shaft's squirt angle for the chosen tip offset can be calculated.

The "Squirt Grades" are my subjective grades - you might grade them differently.

For easier visualization, the last column shows how far the CB goes offline (without swerve) for a 30" shot (about average, I think).

pj
chgo

View attachment 518851
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
did the opposite

I was at Buffalos in NOLA one day last week. I grabbed a bar cue off the wall because I don’t pack my cues on work trips. That sucker had so much deflection that I couldn’t use any spin, even on a shot a few inches from the pocket. It was punishing! It didn’t dawn on me until after I left to try a different stick. But that’s what I get having my mind tuned to a Revo. The difference was HUGE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I have tried JoeyA's 11.8mm Revo and would have to have one if I was still gambling or competing regularly.

Many years ago I was used to regular house cues and bought a twelve ounce snooker cue with around a ten mm tip on it. When I first tried a lot of english on table length shots on a bar table the results were embarrassing! I didn't miss the pocket, I missed the object ball several inches!:D That was my introduction to low deflection long before it was cool.

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
short version

You are spot on with this of course. Short version is a low deflection shaft affects the cue ball path less when using side spin. While an old hand may not want to make the adjustments from what they are used to I have recommended those just learning to start with a low deflection shaft simply because it makes learning to play easier. Successful newcomers are happy newcomers.

Hu


Just a bit of background here first. I'm the originator and author of the Target Ball Concept and the next book The Flight of the Cue Ball which deals mainly with Side Spin. I don't usually go into the detail I'm going to go into today on here because Aiming is subjective however you can make things difficult if you want to.

The core of my system involves perceptions that are different than any other I've seen published and yes when I was done with my material I took a test drive through several of them just to see what they were about.

The post by Patrick below is pretty accurate in anyone's book and while its probably very factual, "Can you use the information in order to find something to hang onto while at the table? Yes if you're that interested you might could,' however the more general you can make something the more useable it is during application.

I found a way to simplify the information in my Side Spin book so as to make the differences between LD and other shafts easier to comprehend in a visual sense. I used 3 basic squirt types of shafts to base my studies on. Factory shafts 8 in taper both plastic in nature ferrules and Ivory as well as 15in long pro taper shafts at 12.75 and 12.80 and LD shafts. I used various LD's by borrowing them testing them, using them and by the end of the book I decided to switch to LD shafts to see if that was something I wanted in my game. I purchased two Jacoby Hybrid shafts used one a bit thinner than the other but both around 12.75. I play with the thicker of the two and play well with them.

Recently I decided to try one of the shafts (natural maple 12.80mm) that I keep for my Pechauer break cue and see how I would do with it after going LD for a little over a year.

I already know how to use a pivot point to assist me in this and even then I had a difficult time adjusting to the level of play I've become accustomed to.

All in all the adjustments are smaller. The adjustments are dependent on distance of the object ball to the cue ball but no one else seems to want to address that so I did in my book.

Sure its what you get used to but the differences I've experienced using LD don't log enough downside to make me want to go back. After all more allowance needed = more likelihood of a miss in my factoring mind.

If you're having trouble now with natural shafts of any kind LD may be for you but figure on switching for good when you switch or buy used to test it out. If you don't like an LD then get rid of it and try another LD.

The differences in LD shafts aren't so dramatic as it pertains to squirt/allowances needed. It has more to do with how the shaft is made and whether or not its good for you in terms of hit and how it feels when the tip is applied to the cue ball there are some differences in the torque/spin I can't explain scientifically but I can't play with a Z3 shaft. I'm sure I could get used to it but its far enough from my current style that I'd rather not. I'm sure there are differences in other shafts as well. Read up and choose what sounds like its you.

There may be reasons the difference is minimal to you now. I've been at that place but once you get a shaft firmly planted into your game your subconcious adjustments will accept what you're using and you'll know you're set up right with side spin on a shot with your normal equipment to the point that when you change it will be hard to switch. If you're not using Side Spin a great deal that would be another reason they seem to not have big differences. Center Top and Bottom and give you a lot with any shaft but if that was all the selections needed why even have LD?

I'm not playing near as much as I was but I'm playing One Pocket and that game needs Side Spin.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The issue with those squirt tests is the CB speed used is no where near the actual CB speed used in actual play.
The reasons why fast speed is used when comparing shafts can be found in the answer to the 2nd question on the natural pivot length resource page. For convenience, here is a pertinent quote:

natrual pivot length resource page said:
If your only goal is to see how two shafts compare for you for a given stroke speed, shot distance, cloth condition, and cue elevation, you can use whatever speed you want. But you will not be able to directly compare your experience with anybody else’s experience; and if you don’t hit the CB at the exact same speed with the exact same cue elevation with each shaft, your comparison might be flawed.

To measure a shaft’s “natural pivot length,” you must measure squirt only, and not the combined effects of squirt and swerve (AKA squerve). One way to do this (e.g., in a cue testing machine, or on a table with a rail removed) is to position the cue perfectly level so there will be no swerve. With a perfectly level cue, the pivot length measurement would be the same regardless of shot speed. A perfectly level cue is not possible at a pool table since the cue must be elevated slightly to clear over the rails. With cue elevation, swerve is unavoidable. However, if you use fast speed over a short distance, swerve will be negligible. If you don’t use a perfectly level cue or a short distance shot at fast speed, you will not be measuring the “natural pivot length” of the shaft. Instead, you will be measuring the “effective pivot length” for a given shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, and cloth conditions. This would make it nearly impossible to accurately compare one shaft to another especially with different people doing tests with different strokes on different tables. If you instead measure the “natural pivot length,” this will be the exact number for that shaft that anybody could measure on any table. And to know how two shafts might compare (without having to physically test them yourself), all you need to know is the “natural pivot length” for each shaft.

See also: Rules for CB Deflection (Squirt) Testing.

You can use any shot speed and distance you want to compare shaft CB deflections, but if you don't use fast speed with the cue as level as possible, you will need to be very careful.

Concerning actual play, CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve) varies in complicated ways with shot speed and distance (and with type of spin, cue elevation, and conditions). A good way to experience these effects and learn how to adjust for them in all situations is to run through the SAWS BHE/FHE calibration drill. I strongly encourage people to try it out. Even if you don't plan to use the system, what you learn in the drill can be helpful.

Regards,
Dave
 

rnsbr

Registered
All this LD shaft talk is getting crazy. I have both. Hard maple and Samsara LD shafts. It’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian! In most all cases, my hard maple shafts work fine.
 
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