LD vs regular shafts

MikeF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What's the approximate deflection % difference between a LD shaft & a regular shaft? I've been using a LD shaft for about 6 months now & the difference seems minimal.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
What's the approximate deflection % difference between a LD shaft & a regular shaft? I've been using a LD shaft for about 6 months now & the difference seems minimal.
Here's a quick-and-dirty calculation based on "pivot lengths".

A shaft's pivot length is the distance from the tip to pivot in order to compensate for that shaft's squirt (ignoring "swerve"). It's also the distance of CB travel at which it will go offline the same distance as the tip's offset from center CB (in this case the tip offset is assumed to be 9/16", or maximum). So with that (and a little trig) the shaft's squirt angle for the chosen tip offset can be calculated.

The "Squirt Grades" are my subjective grades - you might grade them differently.

For easier visualization, the last column shows how far the CB goes offline (without swerve) for a 30" shot (about average, I think).

pj
chgo

Squirt Angle-Percent Differences.JPG
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've noticed huge differences between certain cues. I have an old Valley Supreme bar cue that's about 14mm at the tip end. It deflects the cb like crazy, as does an old Helmstetter cue I've had since the late 80's. Compared to my Mezz LD shaft, these cues are terrible, causing a good 2+ degree difference on the cb's direction when shooting certain shots. Even if your regular shaft causes 1° more cb squirt/deflection than your LD shaft, it's enough to miss balls when using spin. But we played for years with cb squirt before LD shafts were a thing, so any shaft, LD or not, can be made to work for you very well if you play with it enough.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Even if your regular shaft causes 1° more cb squirt/deflection than your LD shaft, it's enough to miss balls when using spin.
A cue with average squirt will be up to an inch and a half - more than a half ball - off target for a 30” shot.

But squirt itself is the easy part - it’s consistent, linear and easily learned. When it comes to using spin, the real sand in our shorts is swerve.

pj
chgo
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was at Buffalos in NOLA one day last week. I grabbed a bar cue off the wall because I don’t pack my cues on work trips. That sucker had so much deflection that I couldn’t use any spin, even on a shot a few inches from the pocket. It was punishing! It didn’t dawn on me until after I left to try a different stick. But that’s what I get having my mind tuned to a Revo. The difference was HUGE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DD uses a South West maple shaft. I find that interesting when nearly all pros are using LD or CF shafts
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DD uses a South West maple shaft. I find that interesting when nearly all pros are using LD or CF shafts

The majority of Chinese and Taiwanese pros use stiff maple shafts, preferably with tip diameters larger than 13mm.

Didn't they just dominate the US Open for the most part?

Why do they prefer regular shafts, while American and European players seem to think the LD and smaller diameter shafts work better?
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The majority of Chinese and Taiwanese pros use stiff maple shafts, preferably with tip diameters larger than 13mm.

Didn't they just dominate the US Open for the most part?

Why do they prefer regular shafts, while American and European players seem to think the LD and smaller diameter shafts work better?

The Taiwanese claim their shaft of choice have more "power".
Pred FAT was also "invented" for Taiwanese taste.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Taiwanese claim their shaft of choice have more "power".
Pred FAT was also "invented" for Taiwanese taste.

That is what I've heard, also. Kevin Cheng was talking about their preferences once among the Taiwan players.

The only Predator I have is a FAT shaft that I had custom fitted for my Pancery Titlist cue.

I was going to buy a couple more FAT blanks, but they are hard to find now.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's a quick-and-dirty calculation based on "pivot lengths".

A shaft's pivot length is the distance from the tip to pivot in order to compensate for that shaft's squirt (ignoring "swerve"). It's also the distance of CB travel at which it will go offline the same distance as the tip's offset from center CB (in this case the tip offset is assumed to be 9/16", or maximum). So with that (and a little trig) the shaft's squirt angle for the chosen tip offset can be calculated.

The "Squirt Grades" are my subjective grades - you might grade them differently.

For easier visualization, the last column shows how far the CB goes offline (without swerve) for a 30" shot (about average, I think).

pj
chgo

View attachment 518851
Good post Pat. FYI, I've added a quote here:

data comparing LD and non-LD shafts

And for those interested, actual data for a wide range of shafts is available here:

Platinum Billiards robot test results

Enjoy,
Dave
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What's the approximate deflection % difference between a LD shaft & a regular shaft? I've been using a LD shaft for about 6 months now & the difference seems minimal.

I have seen as much as a half ball or more width difference shooting from the spot to end rail contact point. You can hit center to center, or the cueball can totally miss the ball. That is like being able to make the ball in the corner pocket or cutting it in the side if you think about it. I did not mess with testing any sort of back-hand english or pivot points or anything, just shot the same way I usually do and saw how different shafts hit.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I have seen as much as a half ball or more width difference shooting from the spot to end rail contact point.
The chart above shows that a high squirt shaft misses the target by about 2" shooting from 30" away from the OB. From the spot to the end rail is 2 1/2 times that, so (without swerve) that same shaft will miss by 5 inches (more than 2 ball widths). A low squirt shaft will miss by about half that.

Is it any wonder that lower squirt shafts are becoming the big thing? Sure, you can learn to cope with any amount of squirt eventually, but it's inherently easier and more accurate to cope with less.

pj
chgo
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What's the approximate deflection % difference between a LD shaft & a regular shaft? I've been using a LD shaft for about 6 months now & the difference seems minimal.
Even among LD shafts, there can be huge differences in deflection depending on the shaft, and particularly depending on how much spin (how far off center) you are applying. For instance, there is not that big a deflection difference between a Predator 314-3 and a Predator Z-3 - both considered low deflection shafts. However, if you compare a Mezz WX700 to a Mezz WX900, also both considered low deflection shafts, there is an extremely noticeable difference, with the WX900 shaft deflecting considerably less. That is my experience anyway.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The chart above shows that a high squirt shaft misses the target by about 2" shooting from 30" away from the OB. From the spot to the end rail is 2 1/2 times that, so (without swerve) that same shaft will miss by 5 inches (more than 2 ball widths). A low squirt shaft will miss by about half that.

Is it any wonder that lower squirt shafts are becoming the big thing? Sure, you can learn to cope with any amount of squirt eventually, but it's inherently easier and more accurate to cope with less.

pj
chgo

I also think in my experience with working with some newer players, that deflection in shafts causes a big issue with players getting better.

Without knowing that aiming with spin can change where the cueball hits depending on the shaft being used, new players will miss a lot of shots when they use use spin. And with new players spin is not always on purpose, so they may be shooting a lot of shots with spin without even knowing they are or what it does.

I do have specific examples with quite a few players that I watched, they would be OK on straight shots, then soon as they shot at an angle or trying to spin, they missed. I noticed when they shot at an angle they unconsciously hit the cueball on the side.

I stopped them and explained what I was seeing, and then setup a few shots with several shafts, including theirs, to show what happens when they use side spin. A few months later I would play with those people and they would tell me how they are doing better in league, beating players they never could before, and they also shoot better in the tournament with us. That showed me that learning what different cues do to aim starts to be as important as basic mechanics once you get past the very beginners.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I also think in my experience with working with some newer players, that deflection in shafts causes a big issue with players getting better.
Yes, for instance it's much harder to learn to aim with a gun that doesn't shoot straight. And as I've said before, swerve is an even bigger problem because it's way less predictable.

pj
chgo
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I wonder if anyone can do a simulation if pool balls where square. If you hit a flat surface to the side, let's say it had no way to spin on the center but otherwise was free to move in any direction, would it still be pushed to one side?

It may be some theoretical surface where the center of the object was fixed and the object could not spin, but it can go side to side or any direction except around it's own center axis.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
So I wonder if anyone can do a simulation if pool balls where square. If you hit a flat surface to the side, let's say it had no way to spin on the center but otherwise was free to move in any direction, would it still be pushed to one side?

It may be some theoretical surface where the center of the object was fixed and the object could not spin, but it can go side to side or any direction except around it's own center axis.
Squirt happens because the CB rotates while in contact with the tip, pushing the shaft to one side and the CB the other way. So I'm thinking without CB rotation there's no squirt - but I can't think of a way to test it.

pj
chgo
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
So I wonder if anyone can do a simulation if pool balls where square. If you hit a flat surface to the side, let's say it had no way to spin on the center but otherwise was free to move in any direction, would it still be pushed to one side?

It may be some theoretical surface where the center of the object was fixed and the object could not spin, but it can go side to side or any direction except around it's own center axis.

This seems impossible. If you strike a square block left of center it will have to rotate clockwise around its center of mass, which means it will be pushed aside, unless there is an equal force applied to the same face but right of center, canceling the rotation with an equal but counter-clockwise force. Then the block would move straight in the same direction of each colliding force.
 
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