The second shot is a lot tougher to call. If my opponent hit this on me with no ref, I wouldn’t be mad about giving them that game. But I still believe both shots are fouls.
League players! Good Shot or Bad?
- Thread starter peppersauce
- Start date
On that kind of shot you can often avoid driving the cue ball through by hitting closer to center on the cue ball so the cue ball and the table stop the cue stick. More vertical, too.Dang it, Bob. You and your right answers taking all the fun out of the conversation.I agree with you. Still a foul based on the CB’s initial path. It does draw back in the second video, but for a split second before the draw takes you can see that the CB is pushed through the tangent line.
For context, this was not my match, but a teammate’s match. My teammate was the one shooting the 8. I was 100% sure she was going to foul, but she actually hit an absolutely perfect soft nip masse type shot and avoided the foul. I set the shot up after and couldn’t hit it without fouling. Funny thing is, NOBODY on either team saw anything wrong with the shots I was shooting and were completely confused when I told them I was fouling the CB. Including the girl who just hit the shot legally!
Agreed. Didn’t see your reply. I would’ve quoted you and Bob together.
According to WPA rules:
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.From my perspective, the video looks to me that the player is shooting away from the OB. The OP says that he was shooting away from the OB. His bridge hand is on the rail close to the CB. Set up the shot exactly where the ball and bridge hand are set, try to make a legal shot, and tell me that he was attempting to draw that ball.
I have attempted the shot several times (more than 3) and the shot is almost wired, no throw needed. Patrick Johnson suggested that the shot might be legal if aiming away from the OB. geoff_182 suggested to “Aim towards the 9 ball”, which I tried each time and which it looks to me that the player played the shot that way. When I set up the shot, basically, I am aiming to the 9-ball and the shot (OB and CB) looks exactly like the video.
If I was asked to watch the shot and if the shot was performed as I see it and as the OP described and there was no obvious double hit or push, I would say that the player gets the benefit of the doubt and say that he met the rule and made a legal shot. But I am incapable by “consensus”.
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It’s hard to see the angle in the video, but I’m not grazing the OB. I’m shooting into it at about a 1/2 ball hit angle. Maybe even slightly fuller. My fault for not being more clear on the angle of the shot. If you watch both videos, I put my cue over the CB lined up to the second diamond on the long rail. That’s the angle I’m shooting the shot. It can be made without fouling, as I witnessed when the girl played the shot at league. But I wasn’t able to replicate it. IMO, both of the videos I posted were fouls.
He aims at the second diamond from the pocket, enough angle even at that close distance to move the tangent line a little forward of straight downtable.
pj
chgo
As a TD / neutral judge of the shot, I have a slightly different take on this. If I’m asked by either player to judge this shot and the shooter still has the bravado to play the shot the way it is played in the original video, he is most certainly putting me on the spot.
After then seeing the shot, even if I’m unsure as to whether or not it was a foul, I’m inclined to not rule in the shooter’s favor, particularly if he had other options and could have chosen to have played the shot differently and still pocketed the shot.
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I yield to your experience and academics. I will try your experiment but my table is being recovered now. The big question: In a big tournament would you call it fair or foul?
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Here’s why it’s a double hit. I slowed down the video. A ball wants to follow the tangent line. The primary legal reason it goes forward of the tangent line is if you have top spin. The primary reason it goes back of the tangent line is if you have bottom spin.
This ball is obviously hit with bottom spin and should immediately follow the tangent line shortly and then start pulling back as the spin grabs. That didn’t happen.
The ball goes well forward of the tangent line out the gate due to a double hit. Then the back spin grabs and pulls it back off the double hit line. A legal hit would have never went forward drastically in the first place.
White = tangent line
Red = double hit line
Yellow = action line after double hit
Blue = action line without double hit
Even though I slowed that down, I could see that clear as day in full speed on my first viewing because I knew what to look for.
This ball is obviously hit with bottom spin and should immediately follow the tangent line shortly and then start pulling back as the spin grabs. That didn’t happen.
The ball goes well forward of the tangent line out the gate due to a double hit. Then the back spin grabs and pulls it back off the double hit line. A legal hit would have never went forward drastically in the first place.
White = tangent line
Red = double hit line
Yellow = action line after double hit
Blue = action line without double hit
Even though I slowed that down, I could see that clear as day in full speed on my first viewing because I knew what to look for.
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I think your yellow line is closer to the actual tangent line for his shot angle (which he helpfully points out with his cue).
pj
chgo
The direction of the yellow line may be closer to that of the tangent line, but the tangent line itself, by definition, extends from the point of contact between the cue ball and the object ball, where the white line begins.
The fact that cue ball moves significantly forward of the actual tangent line indicates the double hit.
Again, I don’t think very many league players would identify it as such though…
What’s not close to the tangent line at all is the red line. The initial cueball trajectory was well forward by a large margin.
That’s the key, the way I see it. If I was called to watch the shot, that’s all I’m looking at. If the CB gets pushed through the tangent line, even for a split second like in the second vid I posted, I’m calling it bad.
The tangent line by definition is perpendicular to the path of the 8 ball. The 8 ball travels along the short cushion. The tangent line must be parallel to the long cushions and perpendicular to the short cushion. I think the white line is bent back a little to the left but the yellow line is bent far more forward.
Yeah, I’m probably overestimating how much the OB can be overcut with the small gap between it and the cushion.
pj
chgo