Learn with an aiming system or not

Long

I'll throw this out there but not sure why I want to enter this battlefield. I had the fortunate opportunity to take Stan's foundation course at his home in 2010 on the way back from playing in a bucket list tournament the US Open 9 ball. I kept an open mind and found that CTE does work. My system that I used at the time (and still use) was probably point of contact or maybe ghost ball. I would get down on the shot and if it looked right and I produced a quality stroke it usually went in the pocket. Phil Capelle termed the phrase shot picture which I like and use to teach players. This shot picture aka ghost ball aka point of contact works very similar to CTE it just isn't named ABC, etc.

When working with Stan, he made the comment that it looked like I was already using CTE by the way that I approached the shot and the alignment. Using the visual cues, I could see that CTE did work. Is it the holy grail of pool? Nope, as stated by many before alignment and fundamentals play an extremely important process to actually making a ball. The important part of this story is that CTE does work.

A big part of the problem which is a huge part of teaching is communication. CTE is pretty hard to concept to grasp. I had a friend who bought the first video that Stan put out Pro One. He was having a hard time understanding the concept so I borrowed the video to watch. To be honest, I understood the concept of CTE after working with Stan but after watching the video I was even confused.

The other issue that I have with Hal's system is the concept of pivot. Alignment is hard enough let alone making a pivot after getting in line with the shot. I know that Stan's Pro One addresses the issue but it still about coming down into the shot and not aiming by coming onto the shot if that makes any sense.

So my the point of my ranting is this that CTE does work and HAMB does work. Everyone in this thread is right! I tell students that I work with and also apply to my own game that anything that helps them such as a kicking or aiming system then do it. I teach natural aiming but I will also let students know that there are other paradigms out there such as CTE and use any tool necessary to improve. Sorry PETA but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Now can we all get along?
 
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HawaiianEye said:
Is your only enjoyment coming onto forums and trying to belittle things and people? Do you ever provide anything useful to help anyone?

I have yet to see any contributions by you in any forum trying to explain a method or something that would help someone. You only criticize others who do.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do enjoy being critical, but if you'll notice it is limited to the two or three people who really deserve it! ;)..If you can't find my tips on one pocket, or the many war story tales I've shared, its because you don't know where to look! (or choose to ignore them) Heres one of many lengthy ones, from a few yrs. back..Most seemed to enjoy it! >>>

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5095771&postcount=1

PS..I can't believe this accusation is coming from the most negative person ever on any pool forum!..If it weren't for your constant bragging and self promotion, you would only have about 10 or 12 posts! (Happy birthdays, and such) :rolleyes:
 
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Kid Dynomite said:
This comment about your investigation and inspection of aiming systems and their validity is not in question!

I agree cte and ghost ball and other aiming systems can help.

You are a boxer with no foot work and poor body mechanics. Pre shoot routine is non-existent. Please name one player that uses your same stance? One player that uses the same distance from the stick to the chin as you ? Your back leg is poorly positioned and too much weight on front leg. You pop up on shots and fail to stay down and trust it's going in. You want to see it go in and are the proverbial "jack in the box" of the pool world.

I am not saying this to make you feel bad. I hope that you can get help! You love pool and you need help from max eberle or lee Brett depending on if you plan to adopt a snooker stance or pool stance. Will make the choice for you on which one to contact.

Best of rolls.

Kd





Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Lol, with respect you're not a better player than I am. I know you think you are but you're just not. This is a case of attacking the messenger rather than the message.

You can't make me feel bad, I am ok with where I am at in my game given what I put in. I could do more and get more out of it but I choose not to spend that time. That said you have literally no idea what I have done since the last time you saw me.

That match is the best 'advertising" a person could ever have if one were inclined to "hustle" the world. I have been told often in the past I natural lemon stroke. :-)

But I am not a hustler, just another amateur who loves to play whenever I can. I find it comical though to be talked down to by people about my game when those people also never really accomplished anything in the game.

SJD I can understand, he was a top notcher at one time and he is curmudgeonly. But many of the folks on here aren't really any better than me from what I know. Yeah some are a little better and some are relatively even and some are worse but not many of them have the credentials to be critical of my game even as "bad" as my form looked in that match.

Sorry but guys like Keith McCready and Alex Higgins and Judd Trump prove that you don't HAVE to have perfect form to play great. Not that it is not a worthy goal but all this talk about perfect form kind of goes against the whole let the mind figure it out mantra that so many are pushing.

If the mind can figure it out and the end result is that the balls go in and the cueball goes where it needs to then what's the problem?

You can't really have it both ways if you're going to be a critic. Otherwise there is nothing to criticize. Face it Mike, we are all "bad" players in comparison to the really GOOD players. Maybe your "form" looks better than mine but I am sure that something else I do is better than you...it's a balance of many variables and your equation doesn't look the same as mine but you get the job done as best you can and I get the job done as best I can and neither of us is any threat to SVB.

I know this though....IF I put in the hours that SVB does I would be way better than you are by a long shot. And putting in those hours would HAVE to include doing whatever is neccessary to correct whatever form would be stopping me from making shots that were properly aimed. And vice versa for you, whatever is holding you back would HAVE to be addressed inside those hours for you to get closer to Shane and much farther from me in skill.

This OP asked a SPECIFIC question, learn WITH an aiming system or not. Some said not and some said yes. Attacking me personally because I said yes doesn't make the case for not because there are numerous examples of those who have adopted good aiming systems in their game who ALSO have "proper" fundamentals and they demonstrate a higher level of play than you or me.
 
JB Cases said:
Lol, with respect you're not a better player than I am. I know you think you are but you're just not. This is a case of attacking the messenger rather than the message.

You can't make me feel bad, I am ok with where I am at in my game given what I put in. I could do more and get more out of it but I choose not to spend that time. That said you have literally no idea what I have done since the last time you saw me.

That match is the best 'advertising" a person could ever have if one were inclined to "hustle" the world. I have been told often in the past I natural lemon stroke. :-)

But I am not a hustler, just another amateur who loves to play whenever I can. I find it comical though to be talked down to by people about my game when those people also never really accomplished anything in the game.

SJD I can understand, he was a top notcher at one time and he is curmudgeonly. But many of the folks on here aren't really any better than me from what I know. Yeah some are a little better and some are relatively even and some are worse but not many of them have the credentials to be critical of my game even as "bad" as my form looked in that match.

Sorry but guys like Keith McCready and Alex Higgins and Judd Trump prove that you don't HAVE to have perfect form to play great. Not that it is not a worthy goal but all this talk about perfect form kind of goes against the whole let the mind figure it out mantra that so many are pushing.

If the mind can figure it out and the end result is that the balls go in and the cueball goes where it needs to then what's the problem?

You can't really have it both ways if you're going to be a critic. Otherwise there is nothing to criticize. Face it Mike, we are all "bad" players in comparison to the really GOOD players. Maybe your "form" looks better than mine but I am sure that something else I do is better than you...it's a balance of many variables and your equation doesn't look the same as mine but you get the job done as best you can and I get the job done as best I can and neither of us is any threat to SVB.

I know this though....IF I put in the hours that SVB does I would be way better than you are by a long shot. And putting in those hours would HAVE to include doing whatever is neccessary to correct whatever form would be stopping me from making shots that were properly aimed. And vice versa for you, whatever is holding you back would HAVE to be addressed inside those hours for you to get closer to Shane and much farther from me in skill.

This OP asked a SPECIFIC question, learn WITH an aiming system or not. Some said not and some said yes. Attacking me personally because I said yes doesn't make the case for not because there are numerous examples of those who have adopted good aiming systems in their game who ALSO have "proper" fundamentals and they demonstrate a higher level of play than you or me.
Click to expand...

John,

Respectfully, your response means you missed my whole point. I said numerous times that aiming systems are beneficial!!!

I said many times the CTE is "good" for some people and truly helps them!!!

I took the time to try and help "YOU" with a little bit of advise, Just like you try to do ad-nauseum on here about the benefits of CTE.

It was not an attack! It is clear you are in denial if you can not look at those pictures and see "Major" areas of concern. You may have put the work in and addressed those issues. I have no way of knowing? But, given the amount of money at stake and seeing what you see in those pictures. Is a clear indication of major work needed in some critical areas.

I found myself taking a moment to assist a fellow member of AZBilliards and lend some "friendly" advise. I even mentioned two top notch sources for assistance in stance and set up by mentioning Max Eberle and Lee Brett. I did not just mention flaws but provided a source for help to fix the problems.

You may be clueless about my game and speed of play in the pool world and have me clocked as some sort of half whit. But, I am far from it. I assure you.

With your newly developed prowess on the table, May I ask why you did not show up at derby and set the world on fire with your phenomenal skills? Seems obvious to kill two birds with one stone by playing and selling cases at Derby. Your lack of entry into any major or mid-level events is a sign of a lack of confidence. But, we are all to believe you are Harry Houdini on the pool table when your actions say otherwise!!!

KD
 
dardusm said:
I'll throw this out there but not sure why I want to enter this battlefield. I had the fortunate opportunity to take Stan's foundation course at his home in 2010 on the way back from playing in a bucket list tournament the US Open 9 ball. I kept an open mind and found that CTE does work. My system that I used at the time (and still use) was probably point of contact or maybe ghost ball. I would get down on the shot and if it looked right and I produced a quality stroke it usually went in the pocket. Phil Capelle termed the phrase shot picture which I like and use to teach players. This shot picture aka ghost ball aka point of contact works very similar to CTE it just isn't named ABC, etc.

When working with Stan, he made the comment that it looked like I was already using CTE by the way that I approached the shot and the alignment. Using the visual cues, I could see that CTE did work. Is it the holy grail of pool? Nope, as stated by many before alignment and fundamentals play an extremely important process to actually making a ball. The important part of this story is that CTE does work.

A big part of the problem which is a huge part of teaching is communication. CTE is pretty hard to concept to grasp. I had a friend who bought the first video that Stan put out Pro One. He was having a hard time understanding the concept so I borrowed the video to watch. To be honest, I understood the concept of CTE after working with Stan but after watching the video I was even confused.

The other issue that I have with Hal's system is the concept of pivot. Alignment is hard enough let alone making a pivot after getting in line with the shot. I know that Stan's Pro One addresses the issue but it still about coming down into the shot and not aiming by coming onto the shot if that makes any sense.

So my the point of my ranting is this that CTE does work and HAMB does work. Everyone in this thread is right! I tell students that I work with and also apply to my own game that anything that helps them such as a kicking or aiming system then do it. I teach natural aiming but I will also let students know that there are other paradigms out there such as CTE and use any tool necessary to improve. Sorry PETA but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Now can we all get along?
Click to expand...
Props to you.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
John,

Respectfully, your response means you missed my whole point. I said numerous times that aiming systems are beneficial!!!

I said many times the CTE is "good" for some people and truly helps them!!!

I took the time to try and help "YOU" with a little bit of advise, Just like you try to do ad-nauseum on here about the benefits of CTE.

It was not an attack! It is clear you are in denial if you can not look at those pictures and see "Major" areas of concern. You may have put the work in and addressed those issues. I have no way of knowing? But, given the amount of money at stake and seeing what you see in those pictures. Is a clear indication of major work needed in some critical areas.

I found myself taking a moment to assist a fellow member of AZBilliards and lend some "friendly" advise. I even mentioned two top notch sources for assistance in stance and set up by mentioning Max Eberle and Lee Brett. I did not just mention flaws but provided a source for help to fix the problems.

You may be clueless about my game and speed of play in the pool world and have me clocked as some sort of half whit. But, I am far from it. I assure you.

With your newly developed prowess on the table, May I ask why you did not show up at derby and set the world on fire with your phenomenal skills? Seems obvious to kill two birds with one stone by playing and selling cases at Derby. Your lack of entry into any major or mid-level events is a sign of a lack of confidence. But, we are all to believe you are Harry Houdini on the pool table when your actions say otherwise!!!

KD
Click to expand...

ok, so I am glad to see that you have gone from it's snake-oil to it's good in the past week.

I don't have you clocked as any sort of half-wit, in fact I admire your postings and thoughts on pool generally and you certainly have no lack of heart. I just think you are confusing my message here and attacking the messenger.

You assume that I am not already aware of how I play and what my stroke looks like. I am more aware of it than anyone else as it costs me money when I dog it.

I guess you mean well but it's not feeling that way. This thread isn't about me and making it so is deflecting from the topic.

As for Derby, well see that remark is another catty response...your assumption that you know my business and a further assumption that it would be "easy" to run a booth and play shows your ignorance about the subject even though you were being sarcastic. Even if I were a stronger player it would still be super tough to play with any real expectation of success while running a booth.

But since you brought it up....you didn't have a booth to run so what event do you win at Derby? What scores did you make? I mean if you want to make a penis measuring contest go on and whip yours out so we can all lay out the rulers.

Look if you want to be on the dance card Mike I am here in OKC every day. Just show up and we can play some and you can criticize my stroke all you want to. Maybe I will copy your perfect form as we play and have a slight chance to win. By the way Max is one of the players I beat once....since you like to list players whom you beat so I did beat Max, once in a race to five that meant nothing. I guess that means I don't need Max's help right?

Thanks for the "advice" but I have everything I need to improve right here in OKC. And that includes the coaching and the facility to work on my stroke and form alongside my aiming.
 
JB Cases said:
ok, so I am glad to see that you have gone from it's snake-oil to it's good in the past week.

I don't have you clocked as any sort of half-wit, in fact I admire your postings and thoughts on pool generally and you certainly have no lack of heart. I just think you are confusing my message here and attacking the messenger.

You assume that I am not already aware of how I play and what my stroke looks like. I am more aware of it than anyone else as it costs me money when I dog it.

I guess you mean well but it's not feeling that way. This thread isn't about me and making it so is deflecting from the topic.

As for Derby, well see that remark is another catty response...your assumption that you know my business and a further assumption that it would be "easy" to run a booth and play shows your ignorance about the subject even though you were being sarcastic. Even if I were a stronger player it would still be super tough to play with any real expectation of success while running a booth.

But since you brought it up....you didn't have a booth to run so what event do you win at Derby? What scores did you make? I mean if you want to make a penis measuring contest go on and whip yours out so we can all lay out the rulers.

Look if you want to be on the dance card Mike I am here in OKC every day. Just show up and we can play some and you can criticize my stroke all you want to. Maybe I will copy your perfect form as we play and have a slight chance to win. By the way Max is one of the players I beat once....since you like to list players whom you beat so I did beat Max, once in a race to five that meant nothing. I guess that means I don't need Max's help right?

Thanks for the "advice" but I have everything I need to improve right here in OKC. And that includes the coaching and the facility to work on my stroke and form alongside my aiming.
Click to expand...

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/results/2011/

out of 400 plus players from around the "World"

9 ball = 21st place
One pocket = 54th place
Bank pool = 72nd place

for a working stiff who just finished college and works full time in a major hospital and devotes little to no time to the game. But, continue in disbelief.

We could go back and look at some really big names that did not make it as far as I did that you admire!!!

Hell, some didn't even play! Those that did, many got served up early on.

KD
 
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Kid Dynomite said:
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/results/2011/

out of 400 plus players from around the "World"

9 ball = 21st place
One pocket = 54th place
Bank pool = 72nd place

for a working stiff who just finished college and works full time in a major hospital and devotes little to no time to the game. But, continue in disbelief.

We could go back and look at some really big names that did not make it as far as I did that you admire!!!

Hell, some didn't even play! Those that did, many got served up early on.

KD
Click to expand...

Yeah. But John did place 2nd in a $20k One Pocket tournament. That's pretty strong.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/

http://www.azbilliards.com/people/9364-dennis-wilson-jr/results/2011/

out of 400 plus players from around the "World"

9 ball = 21st place
One pocket = 54th place
Bank pool = 72nd place

for a working stiff who just finished college and works full time in a major hospital and devotes little to no time to the game. But, continue in disbelief.

We could go back and look at some really big names that did not make it as far as I did that you admire!!!

Hell, some didn't even play! Those that did, many got served up early on.

KD
Click to expand...

Good. Do we need to look at the resumes of the rest of the people who played? I bet a lot of them have jobs as well.

Mike you're a good player. You're not a great player. Yet. Everyone else in the events finished somewhere too. I would have expected a much better showing from someone who had no other obligation at the DCC than to play. :-) I am kidding, I am sure you had a good time and are proud of where you finished. Everyone at our level is always of proud of finishing "in the money."

When you say 400 players was that 400 in each event? I mean I finished 17th once in an event with over 800 players in it so should I think that means I am good enough to talk pool?
 
dardusm said:
I'll throw this out there but not sure why I want to enter this battlefield. I had the fortunate opportunity to take Stan's foundation course at his home in 2010 on the way back from playing in a bucket list tournament the US Open 9 ball. I kept an open mind and found that CTE does work. My system that I used at the time (and still use) was probably point of contact or maybe ghost ball. I would get down on the shot and if it looked right and I produced a quality stroke it usually went in the pocket. Phil Capelle termed the phrase shot picture which I like and use to teach players. This shot picture aka ghost ball aka point of contact works very similar to CTE it just isn't named ABC, etc.

When working with Stan, he made the comment that it looked like I was already using CTE by the way that I approached the shot and the alignment. Using the visual cues, I could see that CTE did work. Is it the holy grail of pool? Nope, as stated by many before alignment and fundamentals play an extremely important process to actually making a ball. The important part of this story is that CTE does work.

A big part of the problem which is a huge part of teaching is communication. CTE is pretty hard to concept to grasp. I had a friend who bought the first video that Stan put out Pro One. He was having a hard time understanding the concept so I borrowed the video to watch. To be honest, I understood the concept of CTE after working with Stan but after watching the video I was even confused.

The other issue that I have with Hal's system is the concept of pivot. Alignment is hard enough let alone making a pivot after getting in line with the shot. I know that Stan's Pro One addresses the issue but it still about coming down into the shot and not aiming by coming onto the shot if that makes any sense.

So my the point of my ranting is this that CTE does work and HAMB does work. Everyone in this thread is right! I tell students that I work with and also apply to my own game that anything that helps them such as a kicking or aiming system then do it. I teach natural aiming but I will also let students know that there are other paradigms out there such as CTE and use any tool necessary to improve. Sorry PETA but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Now can we all get along?
Click to expand...
And some people recommend teaching that to noobs?
To this day, that pivot thingy is still not clear.
 
JB Cases said:
It's clear to those who are willing to learn.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There were a bunch of people that bought the videos, or took lessons from Stan, and it didn't become "clear".

Maybe they needed to "open their minds" further? Or become more "willing".

I have yet to find anyone that struggles with the principle of ghost ball aiming. And it works for shots going to a pocket, caroms, and combinations. No adjustments required. How's THAT for a simple system! No moving parts. I think that's probably the best way for a beginner to learn the game. But I don't have an extensive training facility for the advancement of billiard sciences, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I can't make 2 balls in a row............

The problem with Ghost Ball aiming is that you can't make a 2-3 DVD set out of it. It's been available for free for eons. So, there's no gold in them there hills.
 
JB Cases said:
It's clear to those who are willing to learn.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I was willing to learn and even spent some time and money trying to learn it.

However, what I ultimately learned is that:
  1. There is no mathematical formula that is going to put you in line for a vast majority of shots
  2. Pivoting is greatly dependent on bridge length and that has a tendency to change a lot during a match.
  3. Using side, when needed, greatly changes things.
  4. If you are using CTE and get down on a shot but have to adjust at all, then you are using feel/ghost ball angles which is the entire reason you know you have to adjust.
  5. There are more variables in determining your shot with CTE than there are with ghost ball.
  6. I am much better getting my line and aiming at a ghost ball.
  7. Ghost ball eventually becomes feel much quicker than CTE does and CTE will eventually
 
JoeyInCali said:
So clear.
Right, just watch youtube videos and 2 DVD's.
And still be confused.
Click to expand...
.

Not to mention the guy making those DVDs has spent over 10 yrs figuring it out ,, and most of the guys who are said to use it were already real good players so we really don't know if results are any better than placebo effects


1
 
John B,

I don't know if you want to be a better player or not? I gave up playing pool for many years to make cues because there was no longer any money in playing pool. There still is not.

What I do know is that an aiming system is OK during the learning phase but like a training bike you used as a child it needs to be given up as an adult if you want to become a good or great player.

You need to "feel" the shots without conscious effort. You need to have confidence in what you are doing. Being too mechanical is the road to disaster.

The ZeroX bit on Automatic Aiming is the way it has to be to play at a high level. You want to play in the Zone where you don't remember what happened when you collect the money. That is where all great players live.

You may not have the basic fundamentals but it might be worth a try. It worked for me after a long layoff.

Bill S.
 
bstroud said:
John B,

I don't know if you want to be a better player or not? I gave up playing pool for many years to make cues because there was no longer any money in playing pool. There still is not.

What I do know is that an aiming system is OK during the learning phase but like a training bike you used as a child it needs to be given up as an adult if you want to become a good or great player.

You need to "feel" the shots without conscious effort. You need to have confidence in what you are doing. Being too mechanical is the road to disaster.

The ZeroX bit on Automatic Aiming is the way it has to be to play at a high level. You want to play in the Zone where you don't remember what happened when you collect the money. That is where all great players live.

You may not have the basic fundamentals but it might be worth a try. It worked for me after a long layoff.

Bill S.
Click to expand...

How do you know that CTE or some other good aiming system doesn't lead to automatic aiming?

I mean when good players tell you that it does why do you continue to talk down to me about it?

For my level I have gambled a lot in my life and booked a lot of winners where I was in the "zone". I get what you're saying but you refuse to even consider what I am saying.

You seem to think that I am "selling" something that only I believe in and that no one else does. I would honestly hope that you would know me better than that and know that I wouldn't be promoting anything that I thought would hurt a player's game or hinder them in any way.

I mean I know you respect performance and I certainly have never given a player of your caliber anything from me to respect when it comes to playing pool. But I also showed you many players whom you OUGHT to respect for their ability based on your ability to gauge speed.

Why don't you comment on them and the fact that they essentially say that the aiming systems they use allow them to automatically aim as well?
 
Skippy27 said:
I was willing to learn and even spent some time and money trying to learn it.

However, what I ultimately learned is that:
  1. There is no mathematical formula that is going to put you in line for a vast majority of shots
  2. Pivoting is greatly dependent on bridge length and that has a tendency to change a lot during a match.
  3. Using side, when needed, greatly changes things.
  4. If you are using CTE and get down on a shot but have to adjust at all, then you are using feel/ghost ball angles which is the entire reason you know you have to adjust.
  5. There are more variables in determining your shot with CTE than there are with ghost ball.
  6. I am much better getting my line and aiming at a ghost ball.
  7. Ghost ball eventually becomes feel much quicker than CTE does and CTE will eventually
Click to expand...

Awesome,

I learned that no one offers a mathematical formula for aiming. (well it seems that in fact that there is someone now on the aiming forum offering just that) But CTE and 90/90 offer OBJECTIVE reference points to use to aim with and those points used correctly lead the shooter to the correct shot line consistently.

I learned that pivoting is NOT dependent on bridge length and is easily done for whatever bridge length the shot requires.

Sidespin is EASY to adjust for off the centerball baseline.

I learned that if you get down and it doesn't "feel" right then you can always get back up and refocus to be sure you got the steps right.....just like you can do with any method of aiming.

I learned that there are LESS variables with CTE than with Ghost Ball. Namely the biggest one being the complete INVISIBILITY of the "Ghost" ball. I learned that CTE is utterly dependable and objective.

I learned that I am much better at getting on the line using CTE (and 90/90) than I am using Ghost Ball.

I learned that when I use CTE to line up then it becomes way easier to imagine a ghost ball when I feel like doing that. I also learned that I don't have to give up using Ghost Ball just because I learned to use CTE. In other words I kept GB in my tool box and can and do use it when it's the right tool for the shot.
 
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