Learn with an aiming system or not

[Oze147]

What I get out of the last pages, is that this CTE thing causes some disagreement...but since I´m pretty new here, this whole back and forth between the two parties and the background stories between some of the posters here doesn`t really interest me.

Nevertheless I was always someone who is willing to work on his game, learn new things or just get a bit more insight into this sport. So although I`m quite happy with my feel/ experience-aiming, I was curious about CTE, wanted to watch a few videos etc.

And I have to admit, that the people who say it is complicated, have a point. At least there is no such thing as a simple video tutorial. John invested quite some time into making videos trying to explain things and...I don`t want to be rude...I think he didn`t do the best job. But I´m a teacher myself (not billiards related) and I know how hard it can be to explain even the simplest things.

So @John, if you make a new videos next time, why don`t you try a different approach and don`t try it yourself, but make something like a highlight real of different scenes where players use CTE in competition...maybe plus just a really short sequence with the basic CTE idea.
So everyone new can get an introduction to the concept and more experienced players can see the system in action by pros.
I think that would help more than this endless debates.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Prophets are seldom recognized in their homeland

Describing what happens at high levels of pro aiming, though, is extremely complicated.

We have all heard pros say that I do not know how I aim. They are not lying for the most part. They really don't know their own details of alignment. Most pros start off at ball address with an OFFSET to center and are not even aware of it. They have virtually no clue what transpires between BA and full stance

CTE is a measured explanation for offsetting at ball address and what subsequently occurs on the way down and during full stance. It has taken me years to unravel all of the visual and physical particulars for CTE but I have done so. Much of what I will explain, many of YOU are already doing but have never been aware of it. So, It may very well help many of you..CTE or not.
NO ONE has the power to make me feel bad or guilty for undertaking to contribute knowledge to the game that most of us love.
Plenty of players are using important aspects of CTE quite successfully such as my son but he does not have the explanation level that I have come to understand.
So, YES, CTE is complicated on one hand but on the other hand, the playing hand, absolutely not. I am glad that I set out to totally grasp the one CTE that exist. It has been worthwhile and I think most of you will be pleased with my forthcoming work.
And, it's not about money as the major findings will be free via online.
Stan Shuffett

I for one am TOTALLY glad you made your findings available and that I ran into them.
It was tough (for me, anyway) as you know, for me to undo years and years of unreliable procedures through that crazy guesswork "ghostball" method of pool shooting. As good as I was when I was young, if this information had been available to me....well hindsight is always 200%. But, I believe I would've been a genuine force to contend with.
I've seen most all of 'em dog for the gelt, except maybe Don Willis, Buck Bozeman, Danny DiLiberto,and Joe Cosgrove. As great as Billy J. was, I even saw him gouge one every now and then. (with Danny Jones, my boyhood hero, unfortunately you never could really tell which way the river was flowing and how deep it was)
Personally, I had absolutely no fear....shooting pool for money was fun and like being on stage for me. I lapped it up...loved the crowds....especially the 'haters'. BUT.....I missed so many, many shots, because of improper aiming. (I always said I played just as bad for fun as I did for the loot).
Stan,....Ignore all the bellyachers, gripers, complainers, pool room detectives, and keep on keeping on.
As far as I am concerned, those guys are meaningless, most are just loudmouth failures in life, they do not enrich my pool shooting life one iota, and this available icon is exactly what they can do for me.....===> :kma:
Regards always and thanks again,
Flash

 

[duckie]

Describing the intracasies of what happens at high levels of pro aiming, though, is extremely complicated. I can talk anyone through the process NOW in a manner of 5 minutes or so.

We have all heard pros say that I do not know how I aim. They are not lying for the most part. They really don't know their own details of alignment. Most pros start off at ball address with an OFFSET to center and are not even aware of it. They have virtually no clue what transpires between BA and full stance

CTE is a measured explanation for offsetting at ball address and what subsequently occurs on the way down and during full stance. It has taken me years to unravel all of the visual and physical particulars for CTE but I have done so. Much of what I will explain, many of YOU are already doing but have never been aware of it. So, It may very well help many of you..CTE or not.

NO ONE has the power to make me feel bad or guilty for undertaking to contribute knowledge to the game that most of us love.

Plenty of players are using important aspects of CTE quite successfully such as my son but he does not have the explanation level that I have come to understand.

So, YES, CTE is complicated on one hand but on the other hand, the playing hand, absolutely not. I am glad that I set out to totally grasp the one CTE that exist. It has been worthwhile and I think most of you will be pleased with my forthcoming work.
And, it's not about money as the major findings will be free via online.

Stan Shuffett

Auther "Babe" Cranfield expains aiming quite simply and has a real world training device to use.

Just roll the CB over the spot on the table that is on a line that is where the OB is going. His training aid to use with this concept is the Arrow.

Does CTE have a real world training aid that can be place on the table showing anyone a objective, real world, not make believe, spot where the contact patch of the CB needs to roll over to make the OB go where you want.

Getting into position is another matter. That is totally dependent on where the balls are laying on the table. Because of this, there really can not be any one shooting position that can be used.

I can shoot goofy footed.......meaning my foot position are reversed for a right handed player....ie right foot forward, left back......with no issues and on certain shots, this is easier than normal footing.

I can shoot one handed .....behind my back and so on.

I can shoot leaning way out over the table, cue not under my head at all, and make shots.

The point is there is no set standard to use for getting into shooting position because of the variety of shots that require a wide range of shooting positions and because of the variety of people.

Pool is simple to understand. There is no reason to make it as complicated as some.

Send your work to the middle school kids and see how many use your methods v other methods. See how long you hold there attention with this.

I bet they would use the arrow to learn then try to learn CTE along with learning to play pool.

I over heard a 12 year old tell his friend how to aim a shot. He put is finger on a spot on the table and told his friend to roll the CB over the spot. His friend made the shot.

I pretty sure this kid has never head of the arrow, yet that was actually what he was describing.......Babe Cransfield method for aiming.

So aiming is really so simple a kid can explain it to another kid.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I for one am TOTALLY glad you made your findings available and that I ran into them.
It was tough (for me, anyway) as you know, for me to undo years and years of unreliable procedures through that crazy guesswork "ghostball" method of pool shooting. As good as I was when I was young, if this information had been available to me....well hindsight is always 200%. But, I believe I would've been a genuine force to contend with.
I've seen most all of 'em dog for the gelt, except maybe Don Willis, Buck Bozeman, Danny DiLiberto,and Joe Cosgrove. As great as Billy J. was, I even saw him gouge one every now and then. (with Danny Jones, my boyhood hero, unfortunately you never could really tell which way the river was flowing and how deep it was)
Personally, I had absolutely no fear....shooting pool for money was fun and like being on stage for me. I lapped it up...loved the crowds....especially the 'haters'. BUT.....I missed so many, many shots, because of improper aiming. (I always said I played just as bad for fun as I did for the loot).
Stan,....Ignore all the bellyachers, gripers, complainers, pool room detectives, and keep on keeping on.
As far as I am concerned, those guys are meaningless, most are just loudmouth failures in life, they do not enrich my pool shooting life one iota, and this available icon is exactly what they can do for me.....===> :kma:
Regards always and thanks again,
Flash

APA 3, correct?

 

[DMM4342]

Can you, the reader of this post:
1. Remember the title of this thread?
2. The username of the person who started the thread?
3. The content of post #1. of this thread?

If you can not get one answers correct, then please go back to thread #1. review it, study it and then answer:

4. Did he ask for a debate of which aiming method he should study?
5. Have you been debating on his thread?
6. If you have posted on this thread have you attended to his question?
The questions are rhetorical, so there is no reason to post your answers on this thread.

Dave

 

[GoldenFlash]

Can you, the reader of this post:
1. Remember the title of this thread?
2. The username of the person who started the thread?
3. The content of post #1. of this thread?
If you can not get one answers correct, then please go back to thread #1. review it, study it and then answer:
4. Did he ask for a debate of which aiming method he should study?
5. Have you been debating on his thread?
6. If you have posted on this thread have you attended to his question?
Dave

Gotta' love it....
Now THAT is humorous stuff. So applicable.
I stand guilty as charged.
I like your sense of humor.

 

[duckie]

BTW, I'm just as passionate about this sport as most on here. I have gotten to my level of play due to hard work and lots of table time. There is no other way.

In the beginning, being the lazy sort, I did look for shortcuts and they did seem to work for a bit.

But not in the long run. The one and only thing that has greatly improved by consistency,in the long run, has been quality practice, and not some shortcut/aiming system, LD shaft, type of tip and so on.

I decided to keep it simple. The simpler the better. This is why the table spot idea of Cranfields suits my style of play. The arrow training device does not get its just dues and why so many overlook this is unreal.

No thoughts of degrees, no thoughts of imaginary points, lines, ball overlap, just where to place the CB.

I against any method that adds a extra layer of complicated steps that is not necessary despite the raging of others.

Yo know, pros played at a pro level before they are pro or they would not have gone pro.

Meaning.......pros ain't the only ones that got the lock on how to play high level pool.

 

[JB Cases]

I guess there will be no video explaining how simple it is from you.

John, why can't you just be honest when it comes to this?
Worse , you keep flip-flopping.

This is just another thread showing your incessant hyping of that system.
The original poster has already admitted he needs to work on his mechanic and setup. And you want him to learn a pivot system.
One instructor who teaches CTE has already admitted to it being complicated.
And being confused by the first DVD.
Even though he already knew how to do it.
And he's admitted it's tough enough to get on the aiming line without pivots.

2,000.

OK 2000, not CTE.

I am honest. Again simple to learn hard to master...Like most worthwhile things in life.

But, simple or not nothing give you the right to be so negative and defamatory. Nothing. You have acted terribly for the entire time I have seen you on here. I almost never see you make any kind of positive post. Maybe you do in other places but I almost only see you in the aiming threads being negative, insulting, and defamatory.

It doesn't matter if CTE is the most complicated way to aim ever devised...It's not but if it were then so what? It still works incredibly well and once learned it becomes an integrated part of the preshot routine allowing the shooter to quickly and confidentiality and objectively find the aiming line.

Your constant attempts to dissuade readers from even considering it is shameful.

This video pretty much sums it all up when it comes to how you act vs how we act. We try to grow pool and you try to keep it down.

https://youtu.be/nfWlot6h_JM

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

What I get out of the last pages, is that this CTE thing causes some disagreement...but since I´m pretty new here, this whole back and forth between the two parties and the background stories between some of the posters here doesn`t really interest me.

Nevertheless I was always someone who is willing to work on his game, learn new things or just get a bit more insight into this sport. So although I`m quite happy with my feel/ experience-aiming, I was curious about CTE, wanted to watch a few videos etc.

And I have to admit, that the people who say it is complicated, have a point. At least there is no such thing as a simple video tutorial. John invested quite some time into making videos trying to explain things and...I don`t want to be rude...I think he didn`t do the best job. But I´m a teacher myself (not billiards related) and I know how hard it can be to explain even the simplest things.

So @John, if you make a new videos next time, why don`t you try a different approach and don`t try it yourself, but make something like a highlight real of different scenes where players use CTE in competition...maybe plus just a really short sequence with the basic CTE idea.
So everyone new can get an introduction to the concept and more experienced players can see the system in action by pros.
I think that would help more than this endless debates.

I don't teach. I explore concepts. Fwiw not every explanation works for every viewer. But I have dozens of comments from people who say they were helped by the videos I make.

I used to sell jump cues. I created a demonstration that showed the usefulness of jump cues with shots from easy to tough. But I found out that even good players sometimes had trouble with the jump shot even with a jump cue. I had to devise about five different ways to explain the stroke and overcome objections.

CTE is no different. In fact every concept in pool is no different. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all presentation. Learning how to teach is itself an art.

Thank you for the advice. I am sure as time goes by the way to present it will be refined and simplified. I want to say that this would likely have gone faster if it were not for the defamatory opposition that has spoiled these discussions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

Auther "Babe" Cranfield expains aiming quite simply and has a real world training device to use.

Just roll the CB over the spot on the table that is on a line that is where the OB is going. His training aid to use with this concept is the Arrow.

Does CTE have a real world training aid that can be place on the table showing anyone a objective, real world, not make believe, spot where the contact patch of the CB needs to roll over to make the OB go where you want.

Getting into position is another matter. That is totally dependent on where the balls are laying on the table. Because of this, there really can not be any one shooting position that can be used.

I can shoot goofy footed.......meaning my foot position are reversed for a right handed player....ie right foot forward, left back......with no issues and on certain shots, this is easier than normal footing.

I can shoot one handed .....behind my back and so on.

I can shoot leaning way out over the table, cue not under my head at all, and make shots.

The point is there is no set standard to use for getting into shooting position because of the variety of shots that require a wide range of shooting positions and because of the variety of people.

Pool is simple to understand. There is no reason to make it as complicated as some.

Send your work to the middle school kids and see how many use your methods v other methods. See how long you hold there attention with this.

I bet they would use the arrow to learn then try to learn CTE along with learning to play pool.

I over heard a 12 year old tell his friend how to aim a shot. He put is finger on a spot on the table and told his friend to roll the CB over the spot. His friend made the shot.

I pretty sure this kid has never head of the arrow, yet that was actually what he was describing.......Babe Cransfield method for aiming.

So aiming is really so simple a kid can explain it to another kid.

Yep ghost ball aiming is a couple hundred years old....Yet it needs fingers, templates, devices, an amazing ability to pick invisible spots on balls and cloth and hold those spots while getting into position to aim the cue ball to roll over that invisible spot.

CTE needs no devices, fingers, templates, or superhuman imagination.

All that is needed is the cue ball, the object ball, eyes and knowledge.

https://youtu.be/fMNs82JOumU

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

BTW, I'm just as passionate about this sport as most on here. I have gotten to my level of play due to hard work and lots of table time. There is no other way.

In the beginning, being the lazy sort, I did look for shortcuts and they did seem to work for a bit.

But not in the long run. The one and only thing that has greatly improved by consistency,in the long run, has been quality practice, and not some shortcut/aiming system, LD shaft, type of tip and so on.

I decided to keep it simple. The simpler the better. This is why the table spot idea of Cranfields suits my style of play. The arrow training device does not get its just dues and why so many overlook this is unreal.

No thoughts of degrees, no thoughts of imaginary points, lines, ball overlap, just where to place the CB.

I against any method that adds a extra layer of complicated steps that is not necessary despite the raging of others.

Yo know, pros played at a pro level before they are pro or they would not have gone pro.

Meaning.......pros ain't the only ones that got the lock on how to play high level pool.

What is your level? I ask because I get a lot of shit for daring to talk about any aspect of pool at my level. I am fairly sure you are no where close to my level so I wonder what you mean when you say pros are not the only ones who have a lock on playing high level pool? Are you trying to say that you play high level pool?

Because nothing you have written or shown us indicates that you even play average level pool.

 

[JoeyA]

Yes, I've heard many pros say that they can't explain how they aim.

If aiming were so easy, the professional players could just tell everyone how they do it and with just a straight stroke, there would seldom ever be a missed shot.

Hal Houle would be very proud of you Stan, as I am.

Stan, thanks for your valuable contributions to the pool world.


JoeyA

Describing the intracasies of what happens at high levels of pro aiming, though, is extremely complicated. I can talk anyone through the process NOW in a manner of 5 minutes or so.

We have all heard pros say that I do not know how I aim. They are not lying for the most part. They really don't know their own details of alignment. Most pros start off at ball address with an OFFSET to center and are not even aware of it. They have virtually no clue what transpires between BA and full stance

CTE is a measured explanation for offsetting at ball address and what subsequently occurs on the way down and during full stance. It has taken me years to unravel all of the visual and physical particulars for CTE but I have done so. Much of what I will explain, many of YOU are already doing but have never been aware of it. So, It may very well help many of you..CTE or not.

NO ONE has the power to make me feel bad or guilty for undertaking to contribute knowledge to the game that most of us love.

Plenty of players are using important aspects of CTE quite successfully such as my son but he does not have the explanation level that I have come to understand.

So, YES, CTE is complicated on one hand but on the other hand, the playing hand, absolutely not. I am glad that I set out to totally grasp the one CTE that exist. It has been worthwhile and I think most of you will be pleased with my forthcoming work.
And, it's not about money as the major findings will be free via online.

Stan Shuffett

 

[JB Cases]

Yes, I've heard many pros say that they can't explain how they aim.

If aiming were so easy, the professional players could just tell everyone how they do it and with just a straight stroke, there would seldom ever be a missed shot.

Hal Houle would be very proud of you Stan, as I am.

Stan, thanks for your valuable contributions to the pool world.


JoeyA

I concur.

Haters hate. Creators create.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[SJDinPHX]

Haters hate. Creators create.

....And dreamers, dream..(of magic bullets, like CTE)

 

[JB Cases]

BTW, I'm just as passionate about this sport as most on here. I have gotten to my level of play due to hard work and lots of table time. There is no other way.

In the beginning, being the lazy sort, I did look for shortcuts and they did seem to work for a bit.

But not in the long run. The one and only thing that has greatly improved by consistency,in the long run, has been quality practice, and not some shortcut/aiming system, LD shaft, type of tip and so on.

I decided to keep it simple. The simpler the better. This is why the table spot idea of Cranfields suits my style of play. The arrow training device does not get its just dues and why so many overlook this is unreal.

No thoughts of degrees, no thoughts of imaginary points, lines, ball overlap, just where to place the CB.

I against any method that adds a extra layer of complicated steps that is not necessary despite the raging of others.

Yo know, pros played at a pro level before they are pro or they would not have gone pro.

Meaning.......pros ain't the only ones that got the lock on how to play high level pool.

What "shortcuts" did you take? (by definition a shortcut is what gets you to your destination faster. In pool once you reach the destination there is no need to take the shortcut again. Going to work a shortcut that was good yesterday might not be available today.)

So I am curious what you did that you consider shortcuts that only "seemed to work for a bit" but then later didn't work?

 

[JB Cases]

....And dreamers, dream..(of magic bullets, like CTE)

And curmudgeons bludgeon......with memories of times long gone.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yep ghost ball aiming is a couple hundred years old....Yet it needs fingers, templates, devices, an amazing ability to pick invisible spots on balls and cloth and hold those spots while getting into position to aim the cue ball to roll over that invisible spot.

CTE needs no devices, fingers, templates, or superhuman imagination.

All that is needed is the cue ball, the object ball, eyes and knowledge.

https://youtu.be/fMNs82JOumU

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

You can throw away Gordy's templates too then.
It won't eventually develop you to have an eye for the aiming line.

 

[duckie]

Aiming is easy.........explaining it is not do to the fact words are too limited in meaning to explain the experience of aiming.

You can not put experience into any form of system by words.

All CTE does is add a too difficult, unnecessary layer of complicated steps to shot making.

This theme is has been reported by others who tried it.

There is only one way to know how to aim and that is experience of aiming, not any form of system.

Wonder how Babe Cranfield or even Mosconi got to be so good without using CTE? Or any other past greats?

Oh wait........thats right subconsciously they were using CTE......just didn't know it cause no one use there to tell them.

 

[JB Cases]

Can you, the reader of this post:
1. Remember the title of this thread?
2. The username of the person who started the thread?
3. The content of post #1. of this thread?

If you can not get one answers correct, then please go back to thread #1. review it, study it and then answer:

4. Did he ask for a debate of which aiming method he should study?
5. Have you been debating on his thread?
6. If you have posted on this thread have you attended to his question?
The questions are rhetorical, so there is no reason to post your answers on this thread.

Dave

Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, Yes. No they are not rhetorical. The topic is actually an important one. And debate over WHICH methods are good and which are not are to be expected. That type of debate is actually good in the long run when it stay civil and on topic. When it devolves into personal slurs, outright lies, deliberate denigration of concrete examples, and defamation THEN the debate is useless because it becomes circular and polluted.

IF you removed 3-4 posters from this thread then it would have died a long time ago. And one of them is not me. ON Facebook I participate in similar topics and strangely enough the people there seem MOSTLY to be able to converse about the pros and cons from their perspective without getting personal and the topic generally reaches a stopping point fairly quickly.

That said....I have another big set coming up due to a conversation where one of the participants decided to get personal and challenge me to play. We will know on Saturday if I have sufficiently worked on my stroke enough to make the use of the aiming systems I know worthwhile. ;-)

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You can throw away Gordy's templates too then.
It won't eventually develop you to have an eye for the aiming line.

There's something I don't get. All of John's videos herald the advantage of CTE. Then...he does a safety play video. And he uses a "double the distance" technique to get an aiming line to hit the ball. Establishes a contact point on the ball. And is able to use the cueball to contact that contact point.....without using CTE. How is he able to hit this "imaginary" point?

Puzzling.