Learn with an aiming system or not

[stan shuffett]

I said I disagree with it, I didn't say you had to change it Stan. Folks can open a box of Magic Chalk and return it, folks can take a 4 hour lesson with me and not pay. I chose to do business this way. If your way works for you, fine. My way seems to work for me.

Though, if hardly anyone is asking for a refund from you, then having a refund policy is not such a bad thing. One reason I give it, because I'm 99 % sure folks will not choose that option. If you numbers are similar to mine, it's not a bad way to go. The customer is always right, even when they are wrong

Best of rolls, RJ

Chalk and DVDs are apples and organges.

I have exhibited plenty of goodwill for free over the years.

I plan on doing free clinics and a free online series in conjunction with my book. I may pull up on both of those plans because there seems to be little support .
No mattter what I do I will be hated on. It's gets very frustrating in giving all that I possibly can to satisfy peoples wants.
I am sick of Lou and his stinking refund story that he must retell ever so often. I hope to hell it makes him feel good.

Stan Shuffett

 

[stan shuffett]

Absolutely true. There were several that asked publicly. After Stan said no refund it is not knowable how many others would have asked for one. It was only a few bucks so it wasn't so much a matter of money as principle, considering how it was advertised for months and months.

Lou Figueroa

As in 3 or 4....... A couple of haters and one other that outright lied about 29 pms.
You asked for a refund after you sold your DVD. What a nit!

Stan Shuffett

 

[JoeyA]

While everyone, especially snooker players use the line of aim, some of them learn how to aim by using a fractional aiming system. A quick search pulled up this video which leans to learning how to get to that line of aim. You can watch it by clicking here and going to the 2 minute area of the video but it is a short watch anyway.

JoeyA

Most I've seen use the line of aim.
And they are fanatical in getting down to that line.
Chin, chest, rear foot, elbow, grip, shoulder etc on that line.
Even the back swing is on that line.

Allison Fisher sure changed the women's game when she came over.

 

[lfigueroa]

As in 3 or 4....... A couple of haters and one other that outright lied about 29 pms.
You asked for a refund after you sold your DVD. What a nit!

Stan Shuffett

It was somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen. And I don't recall mentioning PMs. Lastly, I wouldn't ask for a refund if I'd already sold it. After you said no refund, I did sell mine, to a guy in TX I think. Didn't even ask full price

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Chalk and DVDs are apples and organges.

I have exhibited plenty of goodwill for free over the years.

I plan on doing free clinics and a free online series in conjunction with my book. I may pull up on both of those plans because there seems to be little support .
No mattter what I do I will be hated on. It's gets very frustrating in giving all that I possibly can to satisfy peoples wants.
I am sick of Lou and his stinking refund story that he must retell ever so often. I hope to hell it makes him feel good.

Stan Shuffett

er, I only mentioned it because RJ asked. I haven't even been in this thread much.

Lou Figueroa
was just passin' through

 

[stan shuffett]

It was somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen. And I don't recall mentioning PMs. Lastly, I wouldn't ask for a refund if I'd already sold it. After you said no refund, I did sell mine, to a guy in TX I think. Didn't even ask full price

Lou Figueroa

You can not locate 6 refund request. Why? They do not exist.
You sold your DVD and then cried for a refund. Nit City!

Stan Shuffett

 

[JB Cases]

Don't waste your time.

Let me ask ya something.........would you like to be misquoted?

How come you only quoted that part and not the whole statement that shows the context of that qoute?

I'll tell ya why.....you have no character, no honor. You are a on line bully.

Oh, feel free to share the context. You have made an adamant point of refusing to acknowledge the OBVIOUS and AGREED UPON usage of HALF BALL HIT for years.

And if you can't even agree on this simple thing which everyone else on both sides of aiming arguments is FULLY CLEAR on then you don't belong in the discussions.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Looking for some experienced shooters opinions on this. New to pool, been shooting steady for a year now and finally getting better. Want to know if I would make better progress with an aiming system or just stick to learning it by sight and feel. If this topic has been beat to death, my apologies in advance! Thanks for any input.

Here is my opinion...(for what it is worth)

First ask yourself...what exactly is an "aiming system"....I compare an aiming system to what a carpenter would call a measuring tape, ruler, protractor, etc.....These are all "tools" that the carpenter uses to get a "feel" of where to make the final cut in a piece of wood, drill a hole in a board or wall... etc. etc....That is really all an aiming system is......As a pool player you "will" use some method of aiming to get a feel of where to hit the object ball, make a bank or kick etc. etc....There are many tools available to aiming....the tool you use is up to you....Me personally....For many many shots the only tool I found I need to pocket a ball is to sight the channel lines....(what path do I need to shoot the CB down in order to make the OB travel down a chosen path)

That being said....I have studied many many of them, and there is some benefit to knowing them and I won't lie it can come in handy....For instance the sharp almost un-makable cut when OB is frozen to the rail....I know that if I aim with a parallel cue 1/4 CB to the edge of the OB....The shot is pretty much a hanger on a barbox and not far from hanger on a 9'....The reaction you get from surrounding people is "how the hell did he just make that shot".....bottom line....an aiming system gave me a solid feel for making the shot.

But your basic fairly straight in shot or standard angle cut shot I can just visualize the channel lines and make those shots....but that is still an aiming system as basic as it is that gives me the "feel" for making the shot.

Basically "aiming" is like religion....It is best to know about all of them....and then pick the one that you believe in best....There are even some "aiming atheists" out there that think there is no such thing as a aiming system.

The bigger....much more important things to work on are your "natural" mechanics....what do I mean by "natural"?.....With any Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...you can "force" the cue back and through in a straight line....Do it 1000 times and you will get it down pretty good and repeatable.....However....Under pressure your body will revert to it's "natural" movement and the cue will go offline....If you are seemingly "missing" those "key" shots under pressure....likely something is "off" in your grip,stance,posture or alignment.

The trick is to adjust those static pieces....Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment....The only things you really can control....(I call them the non moving or "static" parts) the control where the cue will go back and through straight naturally

Watch any top player ....He is not thinking about where his cue is going back and through....It goes back and through straight naturally based on his Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment....

If I want to dial in my game I don't pocket balls at all....I use only the cue ball on the head spot and send it up table to return to the head spot....If I am putting unwanted side spin on the CB I don't adjust my stroke....I adjust my Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment until the CB is "naturally" being struck straight and true....To dial it in even further....Do the same thing hitting draw on the CB.....If you can hit draw on the CB and have it come back to the spot straight...You will be really dialed in on your stroke....But it is all based on "set up" and now it is going to happen "naturally"

The more my set up is dialed in....pocketing balls becomes VERY simple....The next step is dialing in a "routine" that puts you in that correct set up every time....That is harder than it sounds for the weekend warrior pool player....any slight change to the set up is a slight change to the "natural" stroke.....However....Knowing that all you need to do is "adjust" your set up can get you right back in stroke.

Just like golf....You have a "natural" swing....but it changes from day to day....You have to adjust your set up to fit your natural swing for that day.....Pool is the same way....your natural stroke my change from day to day depending on how much you play....You have to adjust your set up to fit your natural stroke.

I think many many players try to make their stroke fit their natural set up and IMO that is a recipe for mediocrity......JMO

 

[JoeyA]

I have to hand it to you Lou. You're very slick in how you try to get under people's skin.

You're always trying to fly under the moderator's radar, carefully choosing your words to avoid being admonished.


Eventually they will put a muzzle back on you. ;-)

JoeyA

er, I only mentioned it because RJ asked. I haven't even been in this thread much.

Lou Figueroa
was just passin' through

 

[JB Cases]

Stan had a no refund policy in place from the start. I OFFERED Lou a refund and was going to send the dvd to someone who would put it to good use.

Lou did a "hit" piece 'review" and that's all.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Meh....Same old forum....This thread (like all of them) got derailed from the OPs post with meaningless banter that could have been done via PM.

 

[lfigueroa]

You can not locate 6 refund request. Why? They do not exist.
You sold your DVD and then cried for a refund. Nit City!

Stan Shuffett

lol, no one would be able to find six refund requests because too many threads were deleted around that era ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Stan had a no refund policy in place from the start. I OFFERED Lou a refund and was going to send the dvd to someone who would put it to good use.

Lou did a "hit" piece 'review" and that's all.

You can call it anything you want but I tried to write an honest review and even compliment Stan on the sincerity of his effort in the review. But, the DVD is what it is, hence DVD #2 and now a thirty something chapter book.

And, if I wanted to do a hit piece review, I wouldn't have passed on reviewing DVD #2 which was sent to me by another member here with a plea to review it also.

Lou Figueroa

 

[duckie]

Oh, feel free to share the context. You have made an adamant point of refusing to acknowledge the OBVIOUS and AGREED UPON usage of HALF BALL HIT for years.

And if you can't even agree on this simple thing which everyone else on both sides of aiming arguments is FULLY CLEAR on then you don't belong in the discussions.

I have several times with a real world pic.

You are just being a ass by only quoting in part of the written statement the the pic I do post represent.

As for as I know......there is no industry standards in pool. Just because the use of the phase 1/2 half ball hit has been used wrongly for years does not makes it acceptable to all.

But then you are really nothing more than useless scum.....the shit on the bottom of my shoes.

 

[lfigueroa]

Meh....Same old forum....This thread (like all of them) got derailed from the OPs post with meaningless banter that could have been done via PM.

This thread should have been retired to the Aiming Wasteland a long time ago.

Lou Figueroa

 

[stan shuffett]

lol, no one would be able to find six refund requests because too many threads were deleted around that era ;-)

Lou Figueroa

6 refund prequests were never made......Nothing more than an outright lie to say that 6-12 were made.

3/4 at the most on AZ and 0% refund request due to content for 1000s of orders by PayPal.

Stan Shuffett

 

[HawaiianEye]

This thread should have been retired to the Aiming Wasteland a long time ago.

Lou Figueroa

What would be easier to do and less painful for others is for you to be retired from the threads.

We can only hope Mr. Wilson is paying attention.

 

[lfigueroa]

6 refund prequests were never made......Nothing more than an outright lie to say that 6-12 were made.

3/4 at the most on AZ and 0% refund request due to content for 1000s of orders by PayPal.

Stan Shuffett

Not much of a spread between your four and my six. In any case, we're both going on memory and neither can "prove" our point. I suppose I could, just as easily, call your number an outright lie but won't.

And who would go through the pain of a PP refund request for a few bucks? I believe folks just thought you'd do the honorable thing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[louieatienza]

WOW, when you miss a point, you really miss. "the bottom of the totem pole" reference was referring to weaker players. And not all things being sold have to be marketed to new player or even players with weak strokes. IF folks think they are good enough, or have the skills to move up, that is their choice to make. But again, you can't sell something based on only what the low level guy is doing.

And you know what, I think any pool player knows they are only as good as their stroke, and if they don't know that, mabye they want to get the corrected. But my goodness, I really hate when I get a pool book on advanced instruction and it's talking about how to make a bridge?? So, yeah, folks do it all the time. And if some folks don't want to, so be it, that' their choice.

And actually, I am an advanced instructor, and NOBODY can pay me just to learn how to "aim". Everyone gets the same first lesson, and it depends how "good" you are as to how far we advance in that lesson. Some folks have rock solid mechanics, or just need small tweak here and there. We'll get farther along in the first 2 hours than most others.

And I've spent the first 2 hours just on someone's stance, bridge, grip and teaching the how to hit center ball, 2 hours because they could not do it. Once the bridge was good, there went the elbow, once the elbow was fine, there went the wrist, I felt like the kid putting his finger in the wall at the dike.

So, yeah, we are arguing about the same things. Sure, everyone should have their strokes evaluated, but folks don't want to "pay" for such things, or they don't believe they have a problem. Nobody can "fix" that, so if they want to buy aiming DVD's or whatever, so what, i'd rather have good aim and below avg stroke, then below avg stroke and terrible aim, no ??

And yep,, I have a 100% money back guarantee on everything I sell and every lesson I've given. After 12 years, and close to a 400 lessons, and if you are not 100% satisfied with the lesson, you don't pay. I have the same policy with baseball hitting instruction, but i charge and get TWICE as much for baseball as I do pool, and the same deal, if parents are not happy, don't pay me. Nobody has taken that route yet, but I"m sure it will happen one day, and I'll won't take it personal, if they didn't get what they wanted, they should not have to pay.

LOL I understand what you meant, but just pointing out a common misconception people have about totem poles. I'm not saying we have to market products to the lowest common denominator, but a majority of players who buy aiming system products are in that minor position on the totem pole, and they should be made aware that they won't get the full benefit of the lesson without a solid foundation.

To your second point: They can't correct what they don't know is bad. The last thing people blame is themselves. It's just human nature. So it can't be their stroke, because they think they "know" how to stroke the cue straight and hit the exact center of the CB.

I do realize from your post that you are an advanced instructor, and that's a great thing. I'd bet the first thing you'd do is have a new student shoot a few racks to get a feel for where they are in their game, so you can go from there. Unfortunately a book or DVD can't do that, so the purchaser must self-evaluate. But if they don't know that, how do they improve? I'm sure if you had a baseball student, and they had some serious flaw, you'd try to correct that before proceeding with advanced techniques. Same thing for any sport. But it's very rare to have that kind of 1-on-1 instruction with pool.

I disagree about aim vs. stroke. If one had a good stroke, it would be far easier to teach aim. I think most people have a good enough idea of where to place the cue ball to get the OB in the pocket. But they short-circuit everything by having an improper stance, which puts their head in a disadvantageous position and causes their stroke to compensate. I don't think many people realize that the human body has an instinctive mechanism to stay in balance, and when someone starts off in an imbalanced state, the body automatically and subliminally fights to get to a balanced state. Thus come the flaws an extraneous moves in the stroke. It works in golf (where I learned this from), pool, and I'm sure in baseball as well as most other target sports. We see pros all the time. The sight the shot, get down, stroke - then don't like the look, get up, and reset. I think a lot of league players (and including myself) just try to twist the body around to conform to an error in aiming, which causes the body imbalance, which causes the poor stroke. It's a lack of concentration, attention to detail, laziness... It's only the gifted few that can play with idiosyncrasies since they've done that since childhood.

All that said, it's admirable that you do stand by your teachings 100%. It's great that there are those I this sport that do.

---------------------------------------------

I do understand, however, that this is more difficult to do with purchased media, since piracy and sharing are so easy. So I do understand if an opened DVD cannot be refunded. You couldn't return a DVD movie or software if the package was opened, save for physical damage.

 

[stan shuffett]

Not much of a spread between your four and my six. In any case, we're both going on memory and neither can "prove" our point. I suppose I could, just as easily, call your number an outright lie but won't.

And who would go through the pain of a PP refund request for a few bucks? I believe folks just thought you'd do the honorable thing.

Lou Figueroa

I guess you are the model for what's honorable.

Stan Shuffett