No leagues here.... Have to travel to NYC or Rockland County. There were a lot of tournaments here, mostly 8 and 9 ball, about 20 years ago. Then, ranked scratch in A and +2 or +3 in B. Have no clue how they rank players now... I actually won a few B tournaments in 9 ball. Played in one 8-ball league where we played 5 games each night, for 10 weeks, getting 1 point per win. I had 48 after 10 weeks. But alas that was almost 20 years ago. Just started playing again after not touching a cue for 7 years. Currently playing a no-name $15 sneaky Pete that's not straight, but I can draw the crap out of.... I guess that makes me a 4, 5? Have no clue
Learn with an aiming system or not
- Thread starter Mike81
- Start date
No leagues here.... Have to travel to NYC or Rockland County. There were a lot of tournaments here, mostly 8 and 9 ball, about 20 years ago. Then, ranked scratch in A and +2 or +3 in B. Have no clue how they rank players now... I actually won a few B tournaments in 9 ball. Played in one 8-ball league where we played 5 games each night, for 10 weeks, getting 1 point per win. I had 48 after 10 weeks. But alas that was almost 20 years ago. Just started playing again after not touching a cue for 7 years. Currently playing a no-name $15 sneaky Pete that's not straight, but I can draw the crap out of.... I guess that makes me a 4, 5? Have no clue
Hitting the bottle kinda early today Dick
Where did I say practice is not important? Action, nah, means nothing. What you don't get, and don't worry, other folks don't either, is folks don't want to become world class, or turn pro, etc. So, what is 'action" gonna do for them? Baseball players make $30M per year, and never been in a casino or bet on a game (except Pete Rose) and they did ok.
You can play Efren all you want, you aint ever gonna play his speed,so losing a TON of money to him is not gonna help you, is it?
SOme folks, and mostly league folks want to get better and they can't "sight" the shots as well as folks with some natural ability, and they just wanna stop missing shots. Why is it so bad to help them get better. And after a while, they will STOP using whatever system they were taught because now the brain has been trained.
I've said this before, but NOBODY will answer me. If CTE and some other systems are so bad, why are the folks who PAID money for this NEVER taken part in the argument here? Weird, huh ? Shouldn't they be here demanding refunds, calling for Stan's head, asking other instructors for their money back?
Surely, in a simple game of pool, there has to be more than one way to learn, teach, play, whatever. Reminds me of the folks that say you should only use maple shafts, no LD's allowed, blah, blah, blah. Man, i hope I never become one of those old guys that sits around saying how good things were in my day, and all the new stuff is crap.
Because I''m gonna be the guy in a 2030 Corvette SMOKING any corvette built prior to that year
Heck I'll bet a new Honda Civic SI will smoke a 1975 Corvette 
GoldenFlash
Banned
Those who live in the past have nothing going on in the present.
Absolutely!
But those old poolroom detectives will never open their minds...the only thing they'll ever 'open' is the next bottle.
:thumbup:Hitting the bottle kinda early today Dick
Action, nah, means nothing. What you don't get, and don't worry, other folks don't either, is folks don't want to become world class, or turn pro, etc. So, what is 'action" gonna do for them? Baseball players make $30M per year, and never been in a casino or bet on a game (except Pete Rose) and they did ok.
You can play Efren all you want, you aint ever gonna play his speed,so losing a TON of money to him is not gonna help you, is it?
SOme folks, and mostly league folks want to get better and they can't "sight" the shots as well as folks with some natural ability, and they just wanna stop missing shots. Why is it so bad to help them get better. And after a while, they will STOP using whatever system they were taught because now the brain has been trained.
I've said this before, but NOBODY will answer me. If CTE and some other systems are so bad, why are the folks who PAID money for this NEVER taken part in the argument here? Weird, huh ? Shouldn't they be here demanding refunds, calling for Stan's head, asking other instructors for their money back?<==well stated
Surely, in a simple game of pool, there has to be more than one way to learn, teach, play, whatever. Reminds me of the folks that say you should only use maple shafts, no LD's allowed, blah, blah, blah. Man, i hope I never become one of those old guys that sits around saying how good things were in my day, and all the new stuff is crap. <==You're right..things WEREN'T good 'back in the day'....it's all sentimental BS.
Because I''m gonna be the guy in a 2030 Corvette SMOKING any corvette built prior to that year
Absolutely!
But those old poolroom detectives will never open their minds...the only thing they'll ever 'open' is the next bottle.
Hitting the bottle kinda early today Dick
Action, nah, means nothing. What you don't get, and don't worry, other folks don't either, is folks don't want to become world class, or turn pro, etc. So, what is 'action" gonna do for them? Baseball players make $30M per year, and never been in a casino or bet on a game (except Pete Rose) and they did ok.
You can play Efren all you want, you aint ever gonna play his speed,so losing a TON of money to him is not gonna help you, is it?
SOme folks, and mostly league folks want to get better and they can't "sight" the shots as well as folks with some natural ability, and they just wanna stop missing shots. Why is it so bad to help them get better. And after a while, they will STOP using whatever system they were taught because now the brain has been trained.
I've said this before, but NOBODY will answer me. If CTE and some other systems are so bad, why are the folks who PAID money for this NEVER taken part in the argument here? Weird, huh ? Shouldn't they be here demanding refunds, calling for Stan's head, asking other instructors for their money back?
Surely, in a simple game of pool, there has to be more than one way to learn, teach, play, whatever. Reminds me of the folks that say you should only use maple shafts, no LD's allowed, blah, blah, blah. Man, i hope I never become one of those old guys that sits around saying how good things were in my day, and all the new stuff is crap.
Because I''m gonna be the guy in a 2030 Corvette SMOKING any corvette built prior to that year
There's absolutely nothing wrong with aiming systems. And whatever works for one person, regardless of what it is, is fine. But it should be the end user to judge for themselves what works and doesn't, right?
On another note, I think ALL instructors of aiming systems should put some kind of forward in their instruction that all the instruction therein is meaningless if the student has no basic fundamentals to hit a CB straight on it's center axis. And even devote a page or two on building a stance and making a straight stroke. Any higher-level player could just glance over that part, or even use it as a refresher. Whenever I go awry the first thing I check are my fundamentals, because when I get tired, I get lazy, and start fidgeting myself into alignment, instead of stepping back and correcting my stance.
GoldenFlash
Banned
At last......
The big gripers and bellyachers don't seem to even consider thinking with an open mind.
All they know is.."it won't work", "you got to gamble night and day", "hit a million balls", and on and on and on.
That's why I say they're lost in the past.
NOW you're getting with the idea! Good for you.
The big gripers and bellyachers don't seem to even consider thinking with an open mind.
All they know is.."it won't work", "you got to gamble night and day", "hit a million balls", and on and on and on.
That's why I say they're lost in the past.
I think I was saying the "end user" should judge for themselves and why I was asking why NONE of the end users are here telling us how bad things are ?
Any instructor is going to teach proper mechanics before they even get into the aiming part, regardless of what they teach.
So, not sure what needs to be "said" as it's part of the lesson. But if folks are just buying a DVD on aiming, they either better have a decent stroke by then. But nobody is stopping them from obtaining those skills on their own. Most aiming systems can be learned from a DVD, book, whatever, but correcting a crooked stroke, not so much.
Thus, I think one must assume they can stroke the ball at least half way decent. I mean, folks sell stuff on how to throw a curve ball,and they probably assume the person knows how to throw a baseball correctly? If they don't, probably won't help all that much. But at some point, you can't only sell stuff for the folks at the bottom of the totem pole. And only "you" can decide what you or are not ready for.
I see kids going into the "fast" cage all the time. I try and tell parents they are doing more harm then good, but the don't listen. The cages are for timing and proper mechanics not how fast of a pitch you can hit. A kid with bad mechanics has NO shot in the fast cage, but there is not any note on the outside warning folks they need a "good baseball stroke" before entering. At some point, folks have to figure out some stuff for themselves too
After Stan's first DVD came out, after months of hype and many claims it would answer *all* questions and "stand alone" ...and it didn't, there were many folks here who asked for a refund after buying the DVD.
Stan said, "No refunds."
Lou Figueroa
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I think I was saying the "end user" should judge for themselves and why I was asking why NONE of the end users are here telling us how bad things are ?
Any instructor is going to teach proper mechanics before they even get into the aiming part, regardless of what they teach.
So, not sure what needs to be "said" as it's part of the lesson. But if folks are just buying a DVD on aiming, they either better have a decent stroke by then. But nobody is stopping them from obtaining those skills on their own. Most aiming systems can be learned from a DVD, book, whatever, but correcting a crooked stroke, not so much.
Thus, I think one must assume they can stroke the ball at least half way decent. I mean, folks sell stuff on how to throw a curve ball,and they probably assume the person knows how to throw a baseball correctly? If they don't, probably won't help all that much. But at some point, you can't only sell stuff for the folks at the bottom of the totem pole. And only "you" can decide what you or are not ready for.
I see kids going into the "fast" cage all the time. I try and tell parents they are doing more harm then good, but the don't listen. The cages are for timing and proper mechanics not how fast of a pitch you can hit. A kid with bad mechanics has NO shot in the fast cage, but there is not any note on the outside warning folks they need a "good baseball stroke" before entering. At some point, folks have to figure out some stuff for themselves too
Folks today don't figure stuff on their own. That's the problem. If they did, they wouldn't be here trying to figure it out, they'd be at the table. The other problem is that I bet most folks think they have a halfway decent stroke. Most folks probably think they're better than they really are. Even a pro thinks he/she can make every shot. And of course, that's not true - they all miss sometimes. And sometimes, on the easiest of shots.
The "bottom of the totem pole" phrase is a misnomer. The bottom position was actually the most important, because it was either "eye level" with the observer, or that they carried the "weight" of the others on top.
If you were an instructor, and your student paid you for a lesson on aiming, I'm pretty sure the instructor will at least gloss over fundamentals, or check to see his student's fundamentals were sound FIRST. Why does it have to be different when you buy that same instructor's book? As Benny Hill said, never ASSUME... because you can make an ASS of U and ME. Even a small blurb somewhere stating, "This system won't work if you don't have the basic fundamentals to execute these shots, so if you don't have them, take some time to work on that first before proceeding" would be beneficial.
Why do I think nobody comes here and complains about the aiming system DVD they bought? Because like many, they buy it as a last resort because they get humiliated in league. Then they find out it doesn't work for them, but don't realize it's because they have a poor sense of fundamentals. They blame themselves and leave the game.
In my day, when we did have a local batting cage, there were warnings at the gate that the fast pitch cage was for expert players and to use extreme caution. I remember the alpine slide ride at Action Park (or Traction Park.) They had warnings all over, and even pictures of people whose skin were peeled off from accidents on the slide. Didn't stop anyone from speeding down the expert slide.
When you train to shoot a gun, you learn first how to handle a gun, then learn all the parts of the gun, then learn a stance (the Weaver stance for the cops) and learn how to aim BEFORE you ever fire a round. Not as deadly, but it's the opposite in pool - you fire away at every ball first with no clue how to stand or aim or stroke, but you learn all that later when you want to get serious about it.
Good analogies...Very well put!...I would hope a few of the previous responders, would read and comprehend your post! ..Makes their rambling replies look a little weak!
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You haven't been paying attention. :grin:
I percieve Stan to be an honorable gentleman..He as simply convinced, that his method of teaching (CTE, Pro 1) can replace things like HAMB, or contstantly being in tough action!..I maintain, it is a distant second!.....He does give you what you pay for, so its your decision!....As with anything else thats for sale, it is buyer beware!..So I have no problem with his 'no refund' policy!
PS..If I were him though, I would be hoping for a better class of pool players, to be touting the virtues of his honest efforts! ..Barton, Chi.RJ, and the Golden Flush, are not exactly a better class of player! :embarrassed2:
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The whole idea of giving a "refund" on something that is in someone's mind is ludicrous to me.
There is no "product" that you can prove either works or is "defective". It is all in the users mind...whether it works or it doesn't. It isn't like buying a toaster and finding out it doesn't work and then taking it back.
CTE is a concept of visualizing something, just like Ghost Ball, CP2CP, etc. If I make a ball, can anyone "see" inside my mind and definitely say what system, if any, that I am using?
I learned to play pool at a very early age and I have HAMB over the years. I have read tons of books and toyed with various things that I have read, seen a video on, or someone has told me and I think that maybe I use a "blend" of everything I have learned. I don't usually "think" about how I am aiming...I just "see what I think is the right angle", line up, and then shoot.
I have never ordered any CTE videos or books, but I have seen a few of the short videos that have been posted by Stan, and others, online and read through numerous threads on here in the flame wars. I can visualize, in my mind, sort of how the concept is supposed to work, but I have never dedicated much time into going into it in detail.
I, also, don't think CTE is something that one can call "their own" because this system has been around for decades, in one fashion or another. The same goes for TOI, which is a playing system, and not an aiming system as many people think it is.
I'm not advocating that any one aiming system or playing method is better than another. Whatever works for you is the deciding factor.
I would suggest trying different things if whatever you are doing doesn't work, but I think the majority of people, who start trying to find the "magic bullet", simply haven't put in the time and effort to get the basics down first.
It takes a "natural" player to be able to visualize and carry out all kinds of difficult shots while being contorted up in awkward positions, with unconventional strokes, etc. The average person can't do that and will need to find something more conventional that works for them in a consistent manner.
I see people, every Sunday, in the APA league who are level 2s and 3s and they are talking about LD shafts and $30 tips and all kinds of shit and they can't even hold the cue level or even in the same place twice in a row. They are buying $300 shafts and they couldn't hit the other end of the table with a laser-scoped rifle. Whoever is running these leagues needs to invest some time in teaching people how to play rather than just taking their money.
There is no "product" that you can prove either works or is "defective". It is all in the users mind...whether it works or it doesn't. It isn't like buying a toaster and finding out it doesn't work and then taking it back.
CTE is a concept of visualizing something, just like Ghost Ball, CP2CP, etc. If I make a ball, can anyone "see" inside my mind and definitely say what system, if any, that I am using?
I learned to play pool at a very early age and I have HAMB over the years. I have read tons of books and toyed with various things that I have read, seen a video on, or someone has told me and I think that maybe I use a "blend" of everything I have learned. I don't usually "think" about how I am aiming...I just "see what I think is the right angle", line up, and then shoot.
I have never ordered any CTE videos or books, but I have seen a few of the short videos that have been posted by Stan, and others, online and read through numerous threads on here in the flame wars. I can visualize, in my mind, sort of how the concept is supposed to work, but I have never dedicated much time into going into it in detail.
I, also, don't think CTE is something that one can call "their own" because this system has been around for decades, in one fashion or another. The same goes for TOI, which is a playing system, and not an aiming system as many people think it is.
I'm not advocating that any one aiming system or playing method is better than another. Whatever works for you is the deciding factor.
I would suggest trying different things if whatever you are doing doesn't work, but I think the majority of people, who start trying to find the "magic bullet", simply haven't put in the time and effort to get the basics down first.
It takes a "natural" player to be able to visualize and carry out all kinds of difficult shots while being contorted up in awkward positions, with unconventional strokes, etc. The average person can't do that and will need to find something more conventional that works for them in a consistent manner.
I see people, every Sunday, in the APA league who are level 2s and 3s and they are talking about LD shafts and $30 tips and all kinds of shit and they can't even hold the cue level or even in the same place twice in a row. They are buying $300 shafts and they couldn't hit the other end of the table with a laser-scoped rifle. Whoever is running these leagues needs to invest some time in teaching people how to play rather than just taking their money.
Congrats!...You finally said several things we can agree on! :thumbup:
To me any person with decent eyesight would be able to visualize where to hit a ball in order to pot. Problem is the execution which requires good mechanics (stance, bridge, grip etc) to be able to deliver cue on the visualized line of the shot.
So, if you have trouble finding the aiming line by all means try systems.
So, if you have trouble finding the aiming line by all means try systems.
WOW, when you miss a point, you really miss. "the bottom of the totem pole" reference was referring to weaker players. And not all things being sold have to be marketed to new player or even players with weak strokes. IF folks think they are good enough, or have the skills to move up, that is their choice to make. But again, you can't sell something based on only what the low level guy is doing.
And you know what, I think any pool player knows they are only as good as their stroke, and if they don't know that, mabye they want to get the corrected. But my goodness, I really hate when I get a pool book on advanced instruction and it's talking about how to make a bridge?? So, yeah, folks do it all the time. And if some folks don't want to, so be it, that' their choice.
And actually, I am an advanced instructor, and NOBODY can pay me just to learn how to "aim". Everyone gets the same first lesson, and it depends how "good" you are as to how far we advance in that lesson. Some folks have rock solid mechanics, or just need small tweak here and there. We'll get farther along in the first 2 hours than most others.
And I've spent the first 2 hours just on someone's stance, bridge, grip and teaching the how to hit center ball, 2 hours because they could not do it. Once the bridge was good, there went the elbow, once the elbow was fine, there went the wrist, I felt like the kid putting his finger in the wall at the dike.
So, yeah, we are arguing about the same things. Sure, everyone should have their strokes evaluated, but folks don't want to "pay" for such things, or they don't believe they have a problem. Nobody can "fix" that, so if they want to buy aiming DVD's or whatever, so what, i'd rather have good aim and below avg stroke, then below avg stroke and terrible aim, no ??
And yep,, I have a 100% money back guarantee on everything I sell and every lesson I've given. After 12 years, and close to a 400 lessons, and if you are not 100% satisfied with the lesson, you don't pay. I have the same policy with baseball hitting instruction, but i charge and get TWICE as much for baseball as I do pool, and the same deal, if parents are not happy, don't pay me. Nobody has taken that route yet, but I"m sure it will happen one day, and I'll won't take it personal, if they didn't get what they wanted, they should not have to pay.
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I was not aware of this, and if true, I don't agree with his policy at all.
Oh, so a buyer can purchase and open the package, watch the material and or copy it..and then just get a refund. DVDs and CDs do not work that way. Damages and defects are another story.
I have thousands of orders with PayPal and no one and I repeat no one has ever gone through the dispute process asking for a refund based on the content. In fact----the word refund has only come 5 or less times in 7 years. Pretty darn good record for f thousands of orders.
I can only think of the name of one pro hater that cried out for a refund.
Stan Shuffett
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Yep. There's not a business around that allows the return of opened media (CD's, DVD's, Video Games, etc) unless it's defective.
I said I disagree with it, I didn't say you had to change it Stan. Folks can open a box of Magic Chalk and return it, folks can take a 4 hour lesson with me and not pay. I chose to do business this way. If your way works for you, fine. My way seems to work for me.
Though, if hardly anyone is asking for a refund from you, then having a refund policy is not such a bad thing. One reason I give it, because I'm 99 % sure folks will not choose that option. If you numbers are similar to mine, it's not a bad way to go. The customer is always right, even when they are wrong
Best of rolls, RJ
Absolutely true. There were several that asked publicly. After Stan said no refund it is not knowable how many others would have asked for one. It was only a few bucks so it wasn't so much a matter of money as principle, considering how it was advertised for months and months.
Lou Figueroa