Learning from negative very critical type person?

[Billy_Bob]

I have a team captain who is one of the best players in the area. I have trouble winning even one game in an evening of practice with this guy (8-ball). He wins because he can leave the cue ball exactly where he wants most of the time. He gives our team instruction during weekly practice.

I am a firm believer that success breeds success...

But this guy is very negative and very critical. Never says anything positive about anyone's playing. He will out and out insult team players during practice, say we are losers, their cues are junk, etc.

[BTW: Out of 5 league matches so far this season, I have won 4 and lost 1. Our team is in 1st place.]

And this is something which will come up in a match - other player's sharking, saying things to get you mad, etc. So I don't know if he is doing this so we will "toughen up" and learn to ignore such comments. Or if he is doing this because *he* is sharking us so he will win more games during practice?

Then he will "micromanage". Tell you exactly which ball to shoot and how to shoot it instead of saying what the overall goal should be, then letting the player decide how to accomplish this or ask how to achieve the goal. And actually this gets to be insulting. He will tell me to use follow when it is obvious that is what I need to do. And he has seen me run 7 balls many times, so he should know I don't need to be told how to shoot every single shot.

He tends to be a "shot maker" type of player (as opposed to a "thinking/strategy" type of player). So he will tell me to run in all my remaining balls if the 8 is tied up and try to break up the 8 along with shooting in the last ball (As opposed to leaving a few balls on the table or playing safeties/intentionally missing until I can runout).

This is contrary to what I have learned. In the past, I have lost games because I shot in all my balls and could not make the 8 (opponent easily snookers me, gets ball-in-hand, runs out). Lately I have been winning a *lot* of games by leaving a few balls on the table until I can runout.

So I don't know if this guy's instruction is good for me or bad for me. He is an exceptional player and I am learning quite a few tricks. But I feel his telling me to leave one ball on the table (8) is going backwards for myself. I know darn well I will lose more games if I do this.

And this works for him because he is an excellent shot maker. He is great at kicking and leaving the cue ball in a good spot, so very difficult to snooker him. But I am not that skilled, I will have a difficult time just hitting my ball and will not be able to control where the cue ball goes after my kick.

I question his motivation - what he really is after. Does he really want me to become a better player or does he want to remain "top dog" and be sure no one else on the team ever wins against him. (I get that feeling, but am not sure.)

Note that when Willie Hoppe was first learning, his dad would "smack him upside the head" whenever he missed a shot. And this is what this guy is doing to me although verbally. So could be a good thing?

So I have the following options...

1. Remain on the team, but practice with someone else. (My thinking being that this guy's advice will hurt my game more than it will help.)

2. Remain on the team and continue weekly practice. (My thinking being that success breeds success. This guy is an exceptional player, learn all I can from him even if it is contrary to what I have learned in the past. Learn the "shot maker" way of winning and put aside my "thinking" way of winning for the time being.)

3. Remain on the team, continue weekly practice, and argue with him when I feel he is giving me bad advice. (Thinking that what he says is right for him and is right for me most of the time, but sometimes I need to point out to him that I am not as skilled of a shot maker as he is and that there are other ways I would have a better chance of winning than doing things his way.)

4. Remain on team, continue weekly practice, and tell him what I am planning to do with each shot before I shoot it. (My thinking being that he does not understand that I may be using a strategy sometimes and am missing shots intentionally. [He just sees me as missing the shot.] Then this will give him an opportunity to say if what I am doing is correct or not and suggest a better option or what he would do.)

 

[mrpool06]

Wow. This sounds exactly like the ace on our team. He is not the team-captain though (I am).

He is a great player, yet our team has decided to dump him next season. He gets all of us upset at one point or the other, & I do believe it can throw a person's game off. All of us have snapped at him one point or another, yet he continues to make comments about how someone is stroking, their shot selection, etc....

I think the reason he does it is to make himself feel important. I've learned its best to not make comments about other's playing. Most people on my team are not open to criticism anyway, so I never say anything. I figure its up to them to get better. Although I will offer constructive criticism if it is asked.

My suggestion: dump the guy......or form a new team with the rest of your team.

 

[breakup]

I am a firm believer that positive reinforcement is the most effective in bringing out the best. It was not mentioned but I bet you get a disproportionate amount of criticism for losing than praise for winning. Don’t get me wrong losing needs to sting but winning needs to feel good. It takes both. I also think from what you said that he may enjoy being a bully. If that is the case he is feeding his ego at your expense. Don’t let him deprive you of feeling your accomplishment. His “management style” sounds to be self indulgent.

The only place I voluntarily put up with crap that I would rather not is at work.

 

[Jaden]

Ok this is a tough spot to be in... You have my sympathy.... My advice to you would be this..... You know your game.... and I think you have a better idea what you're confident making than this other player does....; however, you acknowledge that he is a better player and he may be one of the reasons your team is in first.

So my advice would be to use him in two ways.... First use his bickering and constantly telling what shots to make to improve your mental game. in other words learn to ignore him and do what you know will give you a better chance of winning the games during MATCH play. At the same time listen to what he's saying and pay attention to the patterns he is recommending and do those patterns during PRACTICE.....

It will help you to not only overcome the difficulties of sharking but will help your strategy once you become a good enough shotmaker to use it...

 

[mworkman]

If you don't like this guy, I would leave after the season is over. Pool is supposed to be fun, and it doesn't sound like your team is having as much fun as they could be. I don't care if the guy is the best player in the league, If he is taking away from the team's enjoyment of the game, it's not worth it. Does he tell you which or how much beer you can drink too?

 

[Snapshot9]

Just shows you ...

That all good players do not make good instructors, and a good instructor may not be a great player. Teaching is an art of its own, and communication is the key to it. Some players just do not have the social skills needed to instruct others in a positive manner. A good teacher has to know how much information a student can handle at any one given time. And the purpose of education is just to teach you to use your own mind to solve problems in the world, and how to go about it. So many Pool players are desperate for instruction that they end up listening to people that will hurt their game overall, OR will ingrain bad habits into their play THAT will forever limit them in how good they can play. And as you know, old habits are twice as hard to break than a new habit.

Consider this:
1) Player A jumps around picking up instruction from a few good players, and runs into a good player, but negative instructor. This instructor, although a pretty good player, has quirks of his own. Player A ends up picking up these quirks through instruction, but advances to a 7 on a
2-12 9 ball scale. Player A ends up losing $2,500 over a 2 year period,
playing $10-$20 games, $50-100 sets because of these 'quirks' or bad habits that limit his playing.
2) Player B wants to be good, and decides taking lessons from a qualified instructor would be best. He searches out a qualified instructor, and spends $400 in lessons over a given time span, practicing what he learned on his own time. He becomes a 6, then a 7, and eventually an 8. He makes $2,500 over the next 2 years, and continues to get better, because
he thinks about the game properly, has a good stance and stroke, and has no major flaws to hold him back. His potential to become even better is unlimited, and just depends on him.

I have personally witnessed these 2 examples more than once. Who came out ahead in the deal as far as skill, potential, and money?

If you want to be a good Pool player, and are serious about it, you have to set goals for yourself, think and go about it intelligently, and measure your progress. Many times your progress is measured when you play a better player, and how close you come to beating them.

People move towards what they think about, but its how you think about it that will determine how good it will turn out for you. I see many many Pool players that need a course in Logic more than they do in Pool. Read
'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu.

 

[Gregg]

That all good players do not make good instructors, and a good instructor may not be a great player. Teaching is an art of its own, and communication is the key to it. Some players just do not have the social skills needed to instruct others in a positive manner. A good teacher has to know how much information a student can handle at any one given time. And the purpose of education is just to teach you to use your own mind to solve problems in the world, and how to go about it. So many Pool players are desperate for instruction that they end up listening to people that will hurt their game overall, OR will ingrain bad habits into their play THAT will forever limit them in how good they can play. And as you know, old habits are twice as hard to break than a new habit.

Consider this:
1) Player A jumps around picking up instruction from a few good players, and runs into a good player, but negative instructor. This instructor, although a pretty good player, has quirks of his own. Player A ends up picking up these quirks through instruction, but advances to a 7 on a
2-12 9 ball scale. Player A ends up losing $2,500 over a 2 year period,
playing $10-$20 games, $50-100 sets because of these 'quirks' or bad habits that limit his playing.
2) Player B wants to be good, and decides taking lessons from a qualified instructor would be best. He searches out a qualified instructor, and spends $400 in lessons over a given time span, practicing what he learned on his own time. He becomes a 6, then a 7, and eventually an 8. He makes $2,500 over the next 2 years, and continues to get better, because
he thinks about the game properly, has a good stance and stroke, and has no major flaws to hold him back. His potential to become even better is unlimited, and just depends on him.

I have personally witnessed these 2 examples more than once. Who came out ahead in the deal as far as skill, potential, and money?

If you want to be a good Pool player, and are serious about it, you have to set goals for yourself, think and go about it intelligently, and measure your progress. Many times your progress is measured when you play a better player, and how close you come to beating them.

People move towards what they think about, but its how you think about it that will determine how good it will turn out for you. I see many many Pool players that need a course in Logic more than they do in Pool. Read
'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu.

Probably one of the most informed, concise responses I've read here on the AZ.

 

[ScottW]

In essence, "Penny wise, dollar foolish" applies to what Snapshot said.

It sounds to me like the original poster a) needs to quit dealing with this bad influence and b) if he *really* wants to improve, find someone else (either for free, or pay them for instruction) who is a better instructor.

 

[Billy_Bob]

...I bet you get a disproportionate amount of criticism for losing than praise for winning...

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I suspected there were a few other teammates out there like this guy.

And yes, there is *no* praise ever from this guy when I win or make a good shot/run. When I win, he will find something negative to say about my playing. (Although sometimes I am intentionally missing a shot [which he can't understand doing] so he just sees me as missing a shot rather then making a good strategy move.)

Thinking about playing on this team and the replies above, I think what I will do is use this opportunity to "learn all I can", and hopefully I will be able to get through the rest of the season. Do what he wants during practice, but shoot the way which works best for my skill level during matches sounds like a good solution. Then decide what to do at the end of the season.

Thinking back on my practice sessions with this guy... Actually he is most negative with his remarks when I win a game or two when playing against him. I know he can't stand to lose - *ever*. And I've noticed that another player on my team, who can run some tough layouts, suddenly will "miss a shot" toward the end of his run when playing this guy. He has played with this guy a lot, so maybe he is doing this intentionally.

And I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I know they need me on the team if they want to win 1st. So if the negativity during practice gets too nasty, I can suddenly leave. Perhaps if I do this a few times, he will think twice before making such comments (or as many) in the future.

 

[Scott Lee]

Great response Snapshot9!

tap, tap, tap to Scott Fraser's response...exactly what I would have said. One more thing BB...I'd tell that your team captain to shut his mouth when you're playing. You don't need his "advice", and you'd prefer to play your own game. Get with the other team members, and if he says anything, tell him to let you play your own game, or he can have a team of one, as the rest of you will walk...since it's apparent that none of the rest of your team likes his actions either. That might shut him up, at least for the rest of the session.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Cornerman]

Then he will "micromanage".

This is one of those double-edge sword, catch-22, can't win for losing situations. If he micromanages, he's a dickhead. If he doesn't, then he'll be questioned on why he didn't "call a timeout" or some such thing.

I've got no answers. You can't change his style. Either deal with it or move on. It's an amateur league. I'm sure you don't need the hassle.

Personally, I try to never micromanage and generally won't call a timeout even if I know the play is low percentage. Balancing when to go in and when to stay back sucks because no matter what, the decision will be wrong for someone.

Fred

 

[JimBo]

I have a team captain who is one of the best players in the area. I have trouble winning even one game in an evening of practice with this guy (8-ball).
Then he will "micromanage". Tell you exactly which ball to shoot and how to shoot it instead of saying what the overall goal should be, then letting the player decide how to accomplish this or ask how to achieve the goal. And actually this gets to be insulting. He will tell me to use follow when it is obvious that is what I need to do. And he has seen me run 7 balls many times, so he should know I don't need to be told how to shoot every single shot.

He tends to be a "shot maker" type of player (as opposed to a "thinking/strategy" type of player). So he will tell me to run in all my remaining balls if the 8 is tied up and try to break up the 8 along with shooting in the last ball (As opposed to leaving a few balls on the table or playing safeties/intentionally missing until I can runout).

I'm very confused by your post, you start by talking about this great player who never loses, then when you go into detail you explain a guy who shoots like a rookie and in any top level tournament could never win, specially not in 8-ball. On the 1 hand I can see where this guy comes from, I was a team captain for many years and I was very hard on my teams. But I got results, we would go to states every year, and had many trips to Vegas doing well every time. Sometimes explaing why you want a player to do something just takes to much time and will only confuse them further. Now one thing I would say is if this guy is so bad for the team you need to get rid of him, if he's just getting to you then I'd say either move on or use it as a driving force to get better and beat him. From what you say it shouldn't be to hard to beat him learning basic strategy and executing safety play on him. I think if you start to beat him using more strategy then pure fire power I think he will start to listen to you a bit more and take you more serious. He may just want what's best for himself and the team and just not be good at people skills.

Jim

 

[Billy_Bob]

...Personally, I try to never micromanage and generally won't call a timeout even if I know the play is low percentage. Balancing when to go in and when to stay back sucks because no matter what, the decision will be wrong for someone...

Actually with myself, you can tell I need a timeout when I stand there staring at the table for awhile. And I will usually call a timeout myself in these situations.

This is also how I judge how good a safety was that I played. The longer my opponent stares down the table, the better!

 

[Billy_Bob]

I'm very confused by your post, you start by talking about this great player who never loses, then when you go into detail you explain a guy who shoots like a rookie and in any top level tournament could never win, specially not in 8-ball...

Correct, this guy would not win at the pro level. He is a top "local league player" and can beat anyone in the state at his same skill level (SL 6), but SL 7's will give him a run for his money. And of course a "thinking/strategy" type SL 7 will do him in with a quickness.

And that is how I win games against him (the few I win). I intentionally leave my balls on the table, try to snooker him while fixing problem balls, then runout when I can.

What he can do (which I can't) is what I would call locking and unlocking a pocket. So he will shoot and get the cue ball after the shot to move a blocking ball between one of my balls and a pocket.

Then my turn to shoot and I can't runout or do anything with that ball which is blocked. I'm not good enough at position play usually to get the cue ball to unblock the pocket or leave the CB behind my ball so I can make it in another pocket.

Then he gets up to shoot and easily unblocks the pocket and runs out.

Although if I continue to practice with this guy, perhaps I will learn out of necessity. I always like a challenge...

 

[JimBo]

If you don't like this guy, I would leave after the season is over. Pool is supposed to be fun, and it doesn't sound like your team is having as much fun as they could be. I don't care if the guy is the best player in the league, If he is taking away from the team's enjoyment of the game, it's not worth it. Does he tell you which or how much beer you can drink too?

LOL I love this post. My league was filled with teams who thought like this, they were all great drinkers and they were always home for the playoffs. Pool is sposed to be fun, but league pool isn't the same as pool with your buddies. I tell the people on my teams that winning is fun and if you listen and follow directions we'll win and have fun. But I also think that different people play league for different reasons, so to each his own

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Actually with myself, you can tell I need a timeout when I stand there staring at the table for awhile. And I will usually call a timeout myself in these situations.

This is also how I judge how good a safety was that I played. The longer my opponent stares down the table, the better!

The funny thing about this post is that you are wrong about knowing when you needed the time out, chances are you needed it the shot before. Most GOOD coaches hate when they watch the player make the wrong shot and then ask for the time out to try to fix what they just did. The thing I like to do is tell the shooter what options they have and give my advice as to which I feel is best, then let them decide and live with it, but in some cases I will tell them exactly what to do and that's it, it's not open to debate. I will however explain it after the match on the practice table, over and over until the player understands it and see's it for themself so that next time it comes up they won't need to waste a timeout.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

Although if I continue to practice with this guy, perhaps I will learn out of necessity. I always like a challenge...

I think this is the best advice, you as a player needs to realize you can learn from almost any player, take what you can from this guy and learn from it. If it's how to beat a guy like him or how to ignore negative comments and pick and choose which things will help you. But the best thing to do is win and an enjoy the winning.

Jim

 

[BRKNRUN]

So he will tell me to run in all my remaining balls if the 8 is tied up and try to break up the 8 along with shooting in the last ball

I don't know any "good" player that would intentionally leave the 8 tied up until the last ball...(has this guy never heard of "insurance ball"

This leads me to belive that he is not quite an "ace" player as you make him out to be...I have seen very good "shotmakers" that suck at 8-ball.

I have aloso seen players with lower physical skill levels play good because they know how to take advantage of the lay of the the table.

I think one of the biggest parts of decision making in 8-ball (and often never really even discussed) is looking at how your (opponents) balls lay in comparison to yours.....(relating to chess) which pieces are in a more "advantages" position.

Sometimes your opponents balls have more of an effect on your decision making than your balls.

 

[Skess]

Correct, this guy would not win at the pro level. He is a top "local league player" and can beat anyone in the state at his same skill level (SL 6), but SL 7's will give him a run for his money. And of course a "thinking/strategy" type SL 7 will do him in with a quickness.

From your description, the guy sounds like a great shooter, not a great player. Yes, there is a difference. As a league 7, I look for guys like him to play against. As a skill level 6, he is not going to run out every time up which means I'm going to see a lot of open tables where he's sitting on 1 or 2 balls. If I play it right, I'm either out or he's locked up. Obviously, it doesn't work like that 100% of the time, but I'll take my chances and I'll win way more than I lose against him.

It sounds to me that you have a pretty solid approach to the game and if you were to get real instruction, you could improve more quickly.

As for the attitude, that's up to you. Personally, I wouldn't put up with it, but that's your call.

 

[Gregg]

LOL I love this post. My league was filled with teams who thought like this, they were all great drinkers and they were always home for the playoffs. Pool is supposed to be fun, but league pool isn't the same as pool with your buddies. I tell the people on my teams that winning is fun and if you listen and follow directions we'll win and have fun. But I also think that different people play league for different reasons, so to each his own

Jim

I agree with your points, and your antidote of "Great drinkers who are home for the playoffs."

But I feel that this is not the essence of why this thread was created. I PMed the author of this thread, because I am in the same predicament, but often have other league members of mine who also post here...

The point is that this shooter is killing his confidence and game, and makes him feel bad. It's almost like you are being bullied on the school playground. I went 10 and 2 one session and still felt like it wasn't enough. I was not having fun, and may game suffered.

Like you said, I also now have five trophies over the past three years, and were in the finals to go to Las Vegas, and semi finals for New Orleans (this years TAP), BUT WINNING AT ANY COST is not prime factor for me, personally. Sure winning is fun, but not when you sell out.

My glory days are over. I have done quite a few thing in the past through HS and college athletics, and work related goals. Bar league pool does not have the kind of prestige that some may covet. For example, would you really care if our bar league DART team wins the whole shebang? Most people I speak with could care frigging' less about pool as well, and may even laugh that I would take such a thing seriously.

My game, and my happiness went up weeks after I stopped shooting, and my SL even went up by one! I have a full family, full time job, and play as often as I can, but I want to have fun when I do it.

To be honest, I felt so much pressure during all of the money tournaments and playoffs that I rather not have been there at all to begin with. Sounds like a loser attitude, but I can't change how I feel, and don't want to try. Who wants to spend all weekend shooting pool and being miserable? I have better things to do with my limited time.

But that's all just me, and how I feel, personally.