learning spin

[BC21]

They could be shot as intentional fouls.

That whole "intentional foul" stuff is shady, as far as the line between sportsmanlike and unsportsmanlike conduct goes.

For instance, intentionally fouling to tie a ball up or put your opponent in trouble is "acceptable", as long as you do it by striking the cb first. I believe it would be considered unsportsmanlike to actually move a ball without striking the cb first. Other than that, I'm not sure what constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct with some intentional fouls.

For instance, not even making an attempt to strike the cb is "acceptable" when playing 1-pocket, which to me is unsportsmanlike. I'm talking about when a player simply taps the top of the cb with his tip and says "I owe one". But that's where the 3-foul rule can be helpful... do the same thing right back, and if he does it again, tell him he's on 2 fouls and then you do it again. If he does it a 3rd time he loses the game.

 

[straightline]

That whole "intentional foul" stuff is shady, as far as the line between sportsmanlike and unsportsmanlike conduct goes.

For instance, intentionally fouling to tie a ball up or put your opponent in trouble is "acceptable", as long as you do it by striking the cb first. I believe it would be considered unsportsmanlike to actually move a ball without striking the cb first. Other than that, I'm not sure what constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct with some intentional fouls.

For instance, not even making an attempt to strike the cb is "acceptable" when playing 1-pocket, which to me is unsportsmanlike. I'm talking about when a player simply taps the top of the cb with his tip and says "I owe one". But that's where the 3-foul rule can be helpful... do the same thing right back, and if he does it again, tell him he's on 2 fouls and then you do it again. If he does it a 3rd time he loses the game.

I had not thought of 3 foul pertaining to one pocket. Any foul ball in hand would be my choice. Not that I get to play - nobody plays it in any shape or form here, but without ball in hand, my thoughts on intentionals would be progressive deductions or a flat 5 points. So far my foray into intentionals consists entirely of tapping the white ball into the stack but I think I'll devote some time to pushing clusters around.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... For instance, not even making an attempt to strike the cb is "acceptable" when playing 1-pocket, which to me is unsportsmanlike. I'm talking about when a player simply taps the top of the cb with his tip and says "I owe one". But that's where the 3-foul rule can be helpful... do the same thing right back, and if he does it again, tell him he's on 2 fouls and then you do it again. If he does it a 3rd time he loses the game.

When it is your turn to play, you are required to play a shot. A shot can only be done by contacting the cue ball with a forward motion of the cue stick. Further, it is illegal to intentionally play a miscue. It is not allowed to tap the cue ball with your ferrule. It is not a permitted part of the game. It is not a shot.

Of course most players neither read the rules nor play by them.

 

[bbb]

When it is your turn to play, you are required to play a shot. A shot can only be done by contacting the cue ball with a forward motion of the cue stick. Further, it is illegal to intentionally play a miscue. It is not allowed to tap the cue ball with your ferrule. It is not a permitted part of the game. It is not a shot.

Of course most players neither read the rules nor play by them.

thats unfortunate

 

[BC21]

When it is your turn to play, you are required to play a shot. A shot can only be done by contacting the cue ball with a forward motion of the cue stick. Further, it is illegal to intentionally play a miscue. It is not allowed to tap the cue ball with your ferrule. It is not a permitted part of the game. It is not a shot.

Of course most players neither read the rules nor play by them.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[FranCrimi]

When it is your turn to play, you are required to play a shot. A shot can only be done by contacting the cue ball with a forward motion of the cue stick. Further, it is illegal to intentionally play a miscue. It is not allowed to tap the cue ball with your ferrule. It is not a permitted part of the game. It is not a shot.

Of course most players neither read the rules nor play by them.

And most local TDs are too soft when it comes to enforcing the rules --- and many of them don't even know all the rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

And most local TDs are too soft when it comes to enforcing the rules --- and many of them don't even know all the rules.

I had one major TD back in the the 1980s actually tell me he didn't want a clear set of rules to play by because if a player was obnoxious, rules uncertainty allowed the TD to jerk the player around. I was very surprised by that -- I was young and naive.

Neat trivia: Naive is Evian spelled backwards.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When it is your turn to play, you are required to play a shot. A shot can only be done by contacting the cue ball with a forward motion of the cue stick. Further, it is illegal to intentionally play a miscue. It is not allowed to tap the cue ball with your ferrule. It is not a permitted part of the game. It is not a shot.

I often see these intentional safeties done with a gentle push. That's not a miscue exactly - is it an allowed intentional foul?

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

I often see these intentional safeties done with a gentle push. That's not a miscue exactly - is it an allowed intentional foul?

pj
chgo

At 14.1 it used to be a standard technique to play a sort of push shot. If the cue ball is on the side of the rack and your opponent is on the first foul, if you push the cue ball a few inches into the middle of the rack, a return safe can be very hard.

My feeling is that such intentional multiple hits/pushing should not be a part of the game.

 

[FranCrimi]

At 14.1 it used to be a standard technique to play a sort of push shot. If the cue ball is on the side of the rack and your opponent is on the first foul, if you push the cue ball a few inches into the middle of the rack, a return safe can be very hard.

My feeling is that such intentional multiple hits/pushing should not be a part of the game.

I often see these intentional safeties done with a gentle push. That's not a miscue exactly - is it an allowed intentional foul?

pj
chgo

I've played in (and refereed) a lot of pro 14.1 events over the years, and any player who pushed the cb a couple of inches into the pack would be facing an unsportsmanlike conduct foul. They'd probably lose 16 points for that along with a stern warning that the second offense would result in loss of game. If it's being allowed now, then shame on them for lowering the bar. However, a light push of about 1/8 of an inch to settle the cb between 2 balls would have been accepted. The difference is that the latter could be argued as a light tap. That would never be the case for the former.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I've played in (and refereed) a lot of pro 14.1 events over the years, and any player who pushed the cb a couple of inches into the pack would be facing an unsportsmanlike conduct foul. They'd probably lose 16 points for that along with a stern warning that the second offense would result in loss of game. However, a light push of about 1/8 of an inch to settle the cb between 2 balls would have been accepted. The difference is that the latter could be argued as a light tap. That would never be the case for the former.

That's probably a reasonable way to do it, but I don't think it was ever written in the rules. Several times I saw top pro players push the cue ball in far enough to rearrange a dead ball and I don't think a foul was ever called.

 

[straightline]

Interesting how this "sportsman" stuff works. Never played in a straightpool or one hole tourney. One pocket was always by the game - even seen _buy_ the game but I digress. Being imprinted on pool room ethics I'd fall on the <match up how you like> side of things. It's pool not a board game.

 

[FranCrimi]

That's probably a reasonable way to do it, but I don't think it was ever written in the rules. Several times I saw top pro players push the cue ball in far enough to rearrange a dead ball and I don't think a foul was ever called.

I'd have to check the old rule books since the rules get rewritten every several years but I believe it came under the category of general rules and what a legal stroke is. While you are allowed to shoot through frozen balls, you still must execute a legal stroke. I think pushing a cue ball through a pack of balls, some which are most likely not frozen, doesn't fit the definition of a legal stroke. But that's only a 1 point foul. The unsportsmanlike part of the foul is based on the player's intent in using the illegal stroke.

 

[Imac007]

I'd have to check the old rule books since the rules get rewritten every several years but I believe it came under the category of general rules and what a legal stroke is. While you are allowed to shoot through frozen balls, you still must execute a legal stroke. I think pushing a cue ball through a pack of balls, some which are most likely not frozen, doesn't fit the definition of a legal stroke. But that's only a 1 point foul. The unsportsmanlike part of the foul is based on the player's intent in using the illegal stroke.

The rule as I understand is more related to a double hit.
A frozen ball, under high speed scrutiny does not double hit.
If you add a third ball, or more, to the end, that can hinder the frozen ball(s) even slightly it would be very hard not to double hit.

As to the ethics of totally arranging the balls with illegal strokes is something I would report immediately and let the officials deal with them.

Don’t let it distract your game is the takeaway.

 

[FranCrimi]

The rule as I understand is more related to a double hit.
A frozen ball, under high speed scrutiny does not double hit.
If you add a third ball, or more, to the end, that can hinder the frozen ball(s) even slightly it would be very hard not to double hit.

As to the ethics of totally arranging the balls with illegal strokes is something I would report immediately and let the officials deal with them.

Don’t let it distract your game is the takeaway.

Yes, double hit is a consideration but also what constitutes a legal stroke.

 

[Imac007]

Yes, double hit is a consideration but also what constitutes a legal stroke.

One league I play in allows a frozen ball push. - no double hit
The other asks for a 45° cue angle and uses the ob center as the “foul” line, whether close or frozen.

 

[FranCrimi]

One league I play in allows a frozen ball push. - no double hit
The other asks for a 45° cue angle and uses the ob center as the “foul” line, whether close or frozen.

Official rules allow a normal stroke to take place directly into the ob when the cb is frozen to that ob, however, the pool cue is finishing the stroke in that situation, meaning the cb has left the tip of the pool cue. In the situation of pushing a ball a few inches into a pack of balls, it's not possible for the pool cue to finish the stroke where the cb leaves the tip of the pool cue. The tip is coming to rest while still touching the cb. Jerking the cue back to remove it from the cb isn't finishing the stroke in that instance. And even if the cue ball buried in the pack, did leave the tip of the pool cue microscopically, it would settle back and touch it again, microscopically, for a double hit.

 

[JC]

I had no idea either.

and, yes I am an advocate of HAMB without even knowing it.

I prefer HABB, it's like a thousand times better!

 

[straightline]

HEAP
Hit Em All Perfect