Learning

Most Americans are not HS graduates that means their ability to learn is limited by their communication, reading, verbal or comprehension skills.

The best way to see if a player can learn pool is make him born to a family that lives it daily.

Other than that enjoy finding a pool robot that is human enough to enjoy it for a career.

There are many in Asia that only know it as a career.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Of course all instructors aren't equal. Nobody said they are. Not all instructors are equal for each person, tho, either.

Instructing of any sort is the single profession that a person has the absolute least control on the outcome of their endeavor. An instructor is at the mercy of his students.

Your statements suggest that you have very little respect for instructors. "...if the lesson starts going somewhere you don't want, you stop...". Really? You've hired an expert, but think you know better than he does, that makes you a poor student. A lesson is going to progress how the instructor sees fit because his job is to improve overall performance, if he sees you doing something wrong, he should help correct it, even if you think you are doing it well.

As a student, one should go through four steps:

1. Understand the instructor.
2. Doubt the instructor--which is to say that the student should try to prove or disprove what the instructor teaches with an open mind.
3. Practice the lesson.
4. Reevaluate with the instructor.

If any of the parts is a failure, then the entirety is a failure.

1. If you don't understand the instructor, you can't progress. It is as much the fault of the student as it is of the instructor. For instance, I wouldn't go to a masters level music theory class and expect to understand anything when I can't read music or identify a single chord, but the instructor shouldn't allow me to attend, either.

2. If you blindly follow an instructor, you aren't ever going to fully understand the lesson. If you decide that Instructor Q isn't qualified to teach you anything because he didn't win a world championship, you have closed your mind and consequently, Instructor Q won't be able to teach you anything, but that isn't his fault.

3. Needs no explanation.

4. A student's understanding level will change throughout the process.
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Quick true story about two guys that did it your way:

Two older guys I know -- who are accomplished 1pocket players -- signed up for a lesson with a pretty well known instructor. They got the same lesson everyone gets from this instructor, to include significant changes to their stance. Never mind that these guys were up there in age, had been playing with significant success the way they play, and who in all likelihood were *never* going to change what had worked for them for decades.

But they listened, they did what the instructor told them to do, and didn't say a word. A couple of months later someone I know saw them a tournament and asked them about the lesson and they said it was the biggest waste of several hundred dollars they'd ever spent on pool.

Personally, I do not respect what and how some guys go about the business of instructing pool players, or at least I'm not interested in what they're selling and have actually turned down *free* instruction from two guys whose names you'd recognize. But on the other hand, I do have great respect for other guys that offer instruction and as previously mentioned have happily paid to be taught by them and throwing in a 25% tip.

The bottomline, for me, is that you should get what you want from any instruction, especially if you're paying for it.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Quick true story about two guys that did it your way:

Two older guys I know -- who are accomplished 1pocket players -- signed up for a lesson with a pretty well known instructor. They got the same lesson everyone gets from this instructor, to include significant changes to their stance. Never mind that these guys were up there in age, had been playing with significant success the way they play, and who in all likelihood were *never* going to change what had worked for them for decades.

But they listened, they did what the instructor told them to do, and didn't say a word. A couple of months later someone I know saw them a tournament and asked them about the lesson and they said it was the biggest waste of several hundred dollars they'd ever spent on pool.

Personally, I do not respect what and how some guys go about the business of instructing pool players, or at least I'm not interested in what they're selling and have actually turned down *free* instruction from two guys whose names you'd recognize. But on the other hand, I do have great respect for other guys that offer instruction and as previously mentioned have happily paid to be taught by them and throwing in a 25% tip.

The bottomline, for me, is that you should get what you want from any instruction, especially if you're paying for it.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Yeah, that isn't what I said, the instructor didn't work on what they needed.
 
lfigueroa said:
IMO, there is little that can replace attentive time on the table.

By that I mean being conscious of what you are doing, how you are doing it, and the results that manifest themselves on the table.

Yes, you need to know the physics, geometry, and theory -- books and videos are good in this regard. But then it's up to you to test things out there where the rubber meets the road and to practice, observe, and adjust.

Personally, I'm not so sure an instructor is the best route, especially if they are the kind of instructor that wants to bend you to their model. I see this a lot. Instructors who believe everyone wears a Size 10 shoe. So, IMO, if you seek out an instructor, look for one that will take into consideration your current setup and skills, the amount of time you have to apply to the game, and eschew the guy that tries to mold you into some idealized form of a player that you will never, ever achieve.

Play, observe, adjust, repeat.

Lou Figueroa
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I think this is basically correct, since you do mention the value of a good instructor

When we consider the thousands of hours of play and practice we go through, much of that is on your own. So unless you have a world class coach as a Siamese twin it’s really up to you to experiment and reflect because no one else be around often enough to point out why a shot was missed or where you made a bad decision in a run out.

But I also being coachable can be talent in of itself lol. Some folks are very good at taking direction and applying feedback, and others can be quite stubborn. (I lean towards the latter but endeavour to be the former!)
 
Cameron Smith said:
I think this is basically correct, since you do mention the value of a good instructor

When we consider the thousands of hours of play and practice we go through, much of that is on your own. So unless you have a world class coach as a Siamese twin it’s really up to you to experiment and reflect because no one else be around often enough to point out why a shot was missed or where you made a bad decision in a run out.

But I also being coachable can be talent in of itself lol. Some folks are very good at taking direction and applying feedback, and others can be quite stubborn. (I lean towards the latter but endeavour to be the former!)
Click to expand...

I believe that some guys are just not teachable, so God help them if they don’t figure it out on their own.

Over the years I have occasionally offered advice to a number of guys. Some of it little stuff about a particular shot but sometimes serious mechanical flaws. Some guys can take what you say, immediately implement and say, “Thank you, that works great!” And some guys, even after repeated “coaches” on the same issue do not or cannot change. Then I just give up and shut ma mouth, lol.

Lou Figueroa
 
Learning how to learn is one of life’s greatest achievements. We need help from others who know more, and we need to let others be smarter than us. We also need to be grateful for either God’s blessing, or alternatively, just luck for having the opportunity to allow for learning in the first place (depending on if you are religious or not).

There never exists a self-made man.

Pool is no exception.
 
lfigueroa said:
But, but, the instructor is the hired expert.

Lou Figueroa
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Pull your big boy pants on. If you can't comprehend that I said an instructor should fix what the player needs fixing, or can't figure out that means lessons should be tailored to the person, you aren't capable of having this discussion.

I think you are just looking for a flight. I'm not jb. Your mo is too familiar.

Bye.
 
nataddrho said:
Learning how to learn is one of life’s greatest achievements. We need help from others who know more, and we need to let others be smarter than us. We also need to be grateful for either God’s blessing, or alternatively, just luck for having the opportunity to allow for learning in the first place (depending on if you are religious or not).

There never exists a self-made man.

Pool is no exception.
Click to expand...

Just don’t automatically listen to anyone because they have a business card or web site.

Lou Figueroa
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Pull your big boy pants on. If you can't comprehend that I said an instructor should fix what the player needs fixing, or can't figure out that means lessons should be tailored to the person, you aren't capable of having this discussion.

I think you are just looking for a flight. I'm not jb. Your mo is too familiar.

Bye.
Click to expand...

lol, a very thoughtful, logical argument.

Please stay out of my thread if you can’t hang and just want to issue insults ;-)

Lou Figueroa
you’re no JB
 
lfigueroa said:
Quick true story about two guys that did it your way:

Two older guys I know -- who are accomplished 1pocket players -- signed up for a lesson with a pretty well known instructor. They got the same lesson everyone gets from this instructor, to include significant changes to their stance. Never mind that these guys were up there in age, had been playing with significant success the way they play, and who in all likelihood were *never* going to change what had worked for them for decades.

But they listened, they did what the instructor told them to do, and didn't say a word. A couple of months later someone I know saw them a tournament and asked them about the lesson and they said it was the biggest waste of several hundred dollars they'd ever spent on pool.

The bottomline, for me, is that you should get what you want from any instruction, especially if you're paying for it.
Click to expand...
I agree 100% with your last sentence. But shouldn't the player(s) getting the lesson know up front exactly what the lesson will include, how long it will last, and how much moola? If the instructor says he'll be working on the foundation with stance among other things, right there is an opening to say "Thanks, but no thanks" without flushing the money down the toilet.
If the instructor doesn't say anything up front, the responsibility is on the player to ask what is going to be covered and how.
 
lfigueroa said:
lol, a very thoughtful, logical argument.

Please stay out of my thread if you can’t hang and just want to issue insults ;-)

Lou Figueroa
you’re no JB
Click to expand...

That wasn't an argument, it was a statement of my perception of your inability or unwillingness to understand what I wrote.

You seem to think that I believe all instructors are great. I've never said that.

You only pick parts of posts and repeat them out of context.

You seem to believe that outlasting is the same as winning an argument.

You don't own a thread when you post on a forum. Kinda goes against the definition of 'forum'.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I agree 100% with your last sentence. But shouldn't the player(s) getting the lesson know up front exactly what the lesson will include, how long it will last, and how much moola? If the instructor says he'll be working on the foundation with stance among other things, right there is an opening to say "Thanks, but no thanks" without flushing the money down the toilet.
If the instructor doesn't say anything up front, the responsibility is on the player to ask what is going to be covered and how.
Click to expand...

Seems kinda obvious, doesn't it. It would be like calling a plumber and being angry that he wouldn't fix your electrical issues.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I agree 100% with your last sentence. But shouldn't the player(s) getting the lesson know up front exactly what the lesson will include, how long it will last, and how much moola? If the instructor says he'll be working on the foundation with stance among other things, right there is an opening to say "Thanks, but no thanks" without flushing the money down the toilet.
If the instructor doesn't say anything up front, the responsibility is on the player to ask what is going to be covered and how.
Click to expand...

Sure, but I don’t think that’s the way it always goes.

Lou Figueroa
 
Billiards is more like combat sports competition. An instructor is a partner and it takes time for them to figure you out. New students are not sure how to react to getting knocked out, especially if they are not experienced enough.

The best instructors can spot the signs early and communicate effectively the correction.

The standard instructors say practice this until you get it on your own. Their problem is students wont know if they are practicing right or wrong and that is a lesson.
 
lfigueroa said:
Sure, but I don’t think that’s the way it always goes.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...
It should if somebody takes the lead up front. The lesson getters should tell the lesson giver "this is what I want and what I'm looking for" as well as "this is what I don't want", especially if they're long-time players in many pool room wars.

In your case, am I correct in saying that your main focus and interest is in one-pocket with 14.1 in second place?
Would you want the fundamentals to be 1/2 of the time which includes grip, stance, posture, alignment, aiming? How about
1/4 of the time? What would be your primary wants and focus outside of that? You don't need to say it because I already know.
Let's just say it AIN'T gonna be any part of the fundamentals which needs to be made clear right up front.
 
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