Learning

[jalapus logan]

I think focused self-help is the way to go.

When I practice and inevitably miss a shot or blow a position play I will set it up again and try to better understand it and why it went sideways. It can just be a lack of familiarity with the shot or perhaps something mechanical with a certain shot. And if you can add just one or two shots per session this way you can collect quite a few in a year's time.

As to mechanics, sometimes asking an experienced player to watch and asking for input can be valuable. Or even just doing some self diagnosis with video can be good. Lastly, I think experimentation with your PSR is good and when you're shooting particularly well paying attention to how you step into the shots can lead to long term improvement.

Lou Figueroa

I agree with all of this. For me, I found that one of my flaws was rushing the shot routine. I do that sometimes due to infrequency of play. I have redoubled my efforts at completing all steps of the PSR and especially completing the stroke. Doing this reduces the likelihood that my mechanics will break down under pressure.

 

[jtompilot]

I think focused self-help is the way to go.

When I practice and inevitably miss a shot or blow a position play I will set it up again and try to better understand it and why it went sideways. It can just be a lack of familiarity with the shot or perhaps something mechanical with a certain shot. And if you can add just one or two shots per session this way you can collect quite a few in a year's time.

As to mechanics, sometimes asking an experienced player to watch and asking for input can be valuable. Or even just doing some self diagnosis with video can be good. Lastly, I think experimentation with your PSR is good and when you're shooting particularly well paying attention to how you step into the shots can lead to long term improvement.

Lou Figueroa

I think for the most part you’re about 75% wrong. I’ve had some lessons in the past, a few were good and helped. For the last several years my stroke has become very inconsistent. I’ve video’d myself and analyzed my stroke. I’ve asked other good players to watch me, all to no avail. I’m shocked how bad I look, but somehow I manage to do just enough to play very well at times. It’s so frustrating to lose to a few 600’s and then beat a 700. I’ve played many players from 680-730, they stroke the cue so nicely and just flat out miss less than I do. I might be to old to play like a 700 but I have the desire too.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can fix my stroke without some expert help. God knows I’ve tried to fix it myself and the good players watching me can’t fix it either. When I miss, I know why. The problem is how to fix it and who can help me fix it.

 

[GoldCrown]

I think for the most part you’re about 75% wrong. I’ve had some lessons in the past, a few were good and helped. For the last several years my stroke has become very inconsistent. I’ve video’d myself and analyzed my stroke. I’ve asked other good players to watch me, all to no avail. I’m shocked how bad I look, but somehow I manage to do just enough to play very well at times. It’s so frustrating to lose to a few 600’s and then beat a 700. I’ve played many players from 680-730, they stroke the cue so nicely and just flat out miss less than I do. I might be to old to play like a 700 but I have the desire too.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can fix my stroke without some expert help. God knows I’ve tried to fix it myself and the good players watching me can’t fix it either. When I miss, I know why. The problem is how to fix it and who can help me fix it.

And with the right fixer you’d definitely ramp up a notch.. or two.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I did not say instructors could not be helpful.

What I pointed out is that not all instructors are created equal and in fact good ones are few and far between. Frankly, I'm tired of the blanket endorsement of instructors ;-)

Lou Figueroa

There should be respect for instructors until they prove themselves to be unworthy.

One of the keys of an instructor/student relationship is that the student should feel a responsibility to the time and money they put into the instruction. They probably also feel responsibility to represent their instructor. Much like a dojo where the students want to honor their sensei and their craft.

Not every instructor is going to click with every student. That isn't a failing on either side. I started tutoring students in math at a young age. I quickly learned that I needed to be able to explain things in several ways depending on the tutee. I also had to figure out ways of making some feel that they weren't a failure just because they kept failing to grasp a situation.

Just going to an instructor will not be a magic solution. Your argument of practice time and assessment is valid, but will be enhanced and expedited by an outside observer teaching what to look for, how to evaluate, what and how to practice.

As the saying goes, 'it is a poor student who does not surpass his mentor'. Some instructors only have a small amount of information to pass on, but that doesn't invalidate their importance. Observing math students probably taught me as much as I taught some of them because I was more open to learning than many. I look at how people do a lot of things that I am good at to figure out if their way is better in any aspect. They are my unknowing instructors. Often I find lessons in what they do wrong that assist me in changing what I already do better than they.

I will contend that it is the prevailing disrespect for coaches and instructors among pool players that holds many back. Poor students create poor instruction. The attitude of, 'I can learn it better by myself', and, 'he can't teach me anything, I'm better than him' is laughable.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think for the most part you’re about 75% wrong. I’ve had some lessons in the past, a few were good and helped. For the last several years my stroke has become very inconsistent. I’ve video’d myself and analyzed my stroke. I’ve asked other good players to watch me, all to no avail. I’m shocked how bad I look, but somehow I manage to do just enough to play very well at times. It’s so frustrating to lose to a few 600’s and then beat a 700. I’ve played many players from 680-730, they stroke the cue so nicely and just flat out miss less than I do. I might be to old to play like a 700 but I have the desire too.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can fix my stroke without some expert help. God knows I’ve tried to fix it myself and the good players watching me can’t fix it either. When I miss, I know why. The problem is how to fix it and who can help me fix it.

I'm kind of doubtful about your own diagnosis that it's the stroke. The stroke is the last thing that happens in all shots. I've seen guys with stroke idiosyncrasies, but it was because they had a tremor in their hand from some type of neuropathy problem. Not much can be done there. Nick Varner got it later in his life. Some even get the "yips" in mid stroke similar to golfers when they're putting, including top pros.

Without the above, (my opinion) is stroke problems have to do with the angle of the stance, body, head and eyes in relationship to the shot line. Also to be included would be the fingers and hand gripping the cue. Some grip it tight like they're chocking a chicken...some lightly in their fingers...some releasing the last couple of fingers in the back stroke and retightening
them on the forward stroke. It can also be the wrist position. There are concave wrist positions (Keith McCready)...convex wrist positions...and straight wrist positions. Some remain that way throughout and others are curled during the stroke which also changes the angle of the cue coming into the CB. A lot of time we're doing things we aren't even aware of doing because it got ingrained and "feels" natural and correct. That's where a knowledgeable set of eyes and highly experienced instructor/player can fix thing in a flash. Pool players just hate to spend the money on lessons. A new cue...a new carbon fiber shaft...a new whatever else...no problem! Lessons? OH MY GOD! $$$$!

 

[GoldCrown]

There should be respect for instructors until they prove themselves to be unworthy.

One of the keys of an instructor/student relationship is that the student should feel a responsibility to the time and money they put into the instruction. They probably also feel responsibility to represent their instructor. Much like a dojo where the students want to honor their sensei and their craft.

Not every instructor is going to click with every student. That isn't a failing on either side. I started tutoring students in math at a young age. I quickly learned that I needed to be able to explain things in several ways depending on the tutee. I also had to figure out ways of making some feel that they weren't a failure just because they kept failing to grasp a situation.

Just going to an instructor will not be a magic solution. Your argument of practice time and assessment is valid, but will be enhanced and expedited by an outside observer teaching what to look for, how to evaluate, what and how to practice.

As the saying goes, 'it is a poor student who does not surpass his mentor'. Some instructors only have a small amount of information to pass on, but that doesn't invalidate their importance. Observing math students probably taught me as much as I taught some of them because I was more open to learning than many. I look at how people do a lot of things that I am good at to figure out if their way is better in any aspect. They are my unknowing instructors. Often I find lessons in what they do wrong that assist me in changing what I already do better than they.

I will contend that it is the prevailing disrespect for coaches and instructors among pool players that holds many back. Poor students create poor instruction. The attitude of, 'I can learn it better by myself', and, 'he can't teach me anything, I'm better than him' is laughable.

Anyone that went to Scott Lee without a stroke became a player if they worked at the lesson. I loved the guy. RIP. His SPF course hit the spot. It was a good start. Maybe one size does not fit all but if it fit it fit. Currently my eye sight is horrible. I’m twisting my wrist. Confidence is real low…. I can
use help or maybe I’m simply over the hill. I was playing ok for a while. Age bites.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Anyone that went to Scott Lee without a stroke became a player if they worked at the lesson. I loved the guy. RIP. His SPF course hit the spot. It was a good start. Maybe one size does not fit all but it fit it fit. Currently my eye sight is horrible. I’m twisting my wrist. Confidence is real low…. I can
use help or maybe I’m simply over the hill. I was playing ok for a while. Age bites.

I knew Scott pretty well. Played many hours with him, I was a broke student and never took an actual lesson.

 

[GoldCrown]

I knew Scott pretty well. Played many hours with him, I was a broke student and never took an actual lesson.

He was a master instructor teacher. Never looked at his watched. Did not try to sell anything. When the student understood the lesson the lesson was complete. You were fortunate to play/know him.

 

[slide13]

Anyone that went to Scott Lee without a stroke became a player if they worked at the lesson. I loved the guy. RIP. His SPF course hit the spot. It was a good start. Maybe one size does not fit all but if it fit it fit. Currently my eye sight is horrible. I’m twisting my wrist. Confidence is real low…. I can
use help or maybe I’m simply over the hill. I was playing ok for a while. Age bites.

Scott was great, I did his SPF course in a small group setting and it was really good. I should dig up the papers I took away from that lesson and revisit it all sometime soon. Very insightful.

I've only taken two lessons but I've been lucky that one was with Scott Lee and the other was with Jerry Briesath.

 

[GoldCrown]

Scott was great, I did his SPF course in a small group setting and it was really good. I should dig up the papers I took away from that lesson and revisit it all sometime soon. Very insightful.

I've only taken two lessons but I've been lucky that one was with Scott Lee and the other was with Jerry Briesath.

That's a solid 2... Please let us know how your game is going. How valuable the lessons were.

 

[slide13]

That's a solid 2... Please let us know how your game is going. How valuable the lessons were.

The lessons definitely helped at the time! It's been over 10 years since I had my lesson with Scott and even longer with Jerry. Unfortunately life got in the way at times and I had a gap where I didn't play at all for a while...so my game is in the rebuild stage right now. But, thanks to those lessons I feel like I have a good foundation of knowledge and experience to draw on and use as I try to work my way back.

I would eventually like to find another instructor to take some lessons with but I need to put in some work and use what I already know before I'm ready to start adding more to that I think. But it's definitely on my list.

 

[GoldCrown]

The lessons definitely helped at the time! It's been over 10 years since I had my lesson with Scott and even longer with Jerry. Unfortunately life got in the way at times and I had a gap where I didn't play at all for a while...so my game is in the rebuild stage right now. But, thanks to those lessons I feel like I have a good foundation of knowledge and experience to draw on and use as I try to work my way back.

I would eventually like to find another instructor to take some lessons with but I need to put in some work and use what I already know before I'm ready to start adding more to that I think. But it's definitely on my list.

I commend your priorities.

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree with all of this. For me, I found that one of my flaws was rushing the shot routine. I do that sometimes due to infrequency of play. I have redoubled my efforts at completing all steps of the PSR and especially completing the stroke. Doing this reduces the likelihood that my mechanics will break down under pressure.

I feel timing is important.

You need to give all the parts time to unfold and get into position.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I think for the most part you’re about 75% wrong. I’ve had some lessons in the past, a few were good and helped. For the last several years my stroke has become very inconsistent. I’ve video’d myself and analyzed my stroke. I’ve asked other good players to watch me, all to no avail. I’m shocked how bad I look, but somehow I manage to do just enough to play very well at times. It’s so frustrating to lose to a few 600’s and then beat a 700. I’ve played many players from 680-730, they stroke the cue so nicely and just flat out miss less than I do. I might be to old to play like a 700 but I have the desire too.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can fix my stroke without some expert help. God knows I’ve tried to fix it myself and the good players watching me can’t fix it either. When I miss, I know why. The problem is how to fix it and who can help me fix it.

OK, so what did I get wrong?

Lou Figueroa
75%
wow

 

[Coos Cues]

Always remember to get competent instruction on fundamentals at the time you pick up your first cue. Preferably as a teen ager.

If you have skipped this important step then forget about it.

You will never be over a 650 fargo.

 

[lfigueroa]

There should be respect for instructors until they prove themselves to be unworthy.

One of the keys of an instructor/student relationship is that the student should feel a responsibility to the time and money they put into the instruction. They probably also feel responsibility to represent their instructor. Much like a dojo where the students want to honor their sensei and their craft.

Not every instructor is going to click with every student. That isn't a failing on either side. I started tutoring students in math at a young age. I quickly learned that I needed to be able to explain things in several ways depending on the tutee. I also had to figure out ways of making some feel that they weren't a failure just because they kept failing to grasp a situation.

Just going to an instructor will not be a magic solution. Your argument of practice time and assessment is valid, but will be enhanced and expedited by an outside observer teaching what to look for, how to evaluate, what and how to practice.

As the saying goes, 'it is a poor student who does not surpass his mentor'. Some instructors only have a small amount of information to pass on, but that doesn't invalidate their importance. Observing math students probably taught me as much as I taught some of them because I was more open to learning than many. I look at how people do a lot of things that I am good at to figure out if their way is better in any aspect. They are my unknowing instructors. Often I find lessons in what they do wrong that assist me in changing what I already do better than they.

I will contend that it is the prevailing disrespect for coaches and instructors among pool players that holds many back. Poor students create poor instruction. The attitude of, 'I can learn it better by myself', and, 'he can't teach me anything, I'm better than him' is laughable.

Not all instructors, doctors, lawyers, mechanics, etc. are created equal -- I have sat for jury duty and listened to an attorney who's opening statement was so bad that, if I had been the defendant, I would have leapt up and thrown myself on the mercy of the court.

IMO you don't give anyone a free pass.

You do your due diligence, ask around, interview the instructor, AND if the lesson starts going somewhere you don't want, you stop and re-direct. For God's sake, don't just nod your head and take some rote presentation. Personally I've taken three lessons from: Dallas West, Ray Martin, and Steve "Cookie Monster" Cook. And at the outset of those lessons each of those gentlemen asked me the exact same question: "What are we doing today?" And then I told them what I wanted to work on.

Once again, IMO, if the instructor you've chosen doesn't ask you that... throw yourself on the mercy of the court, lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm kind of doubtful about your own diagnosis that it's the stroke. The stroke is the last thing that happens in all shots. I've seen guys with stroke idiosyncrasies, but it was because they had a tremor in their hand from some type of neuropathy problem. Not much can be done there. Nick Varner got it later in his life. Some even get the "yips" in mid stroke similar to golfers when they're putting, including top pros.

Without the above, (my opinion) is stroke problems have to do with the angle of the stance, body, head and eyes in relationship to the shot line. Also to be included would be the fingers and hand gripping the cue. Some grip it tight like they're chocking a chicken...some lightly in their fingers...some releasing the last couple of fingers in the back stroke and retightening
them on the forward stroke. It can also be the wrist position. There are concave wrist positions (Keith McCready)...convex wrist positions...and straight wrist positions. Some remain that way throughout and others are curled during the stroke which also changes the angle of the cue coming into the CB. A lot of time we're doing things we aren't even aware of doing because it got ingrained and "feels" natural and correct. That's where a knowledgeable set of eyes and highly experienced instructor/player can fix thing in a flash. Pool players just hate to spend the money on lessons. A new cue...a new carbon fiber shaft...a new whatever else...no problem! Lessons? OH MY GOD! $$$$!

Yes, and all that stuff: fingers, and wrists, and a whole lot more need to be taken into consideration because they are what produce the stroke.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Always remember to get competent instruction on fundamentals at the time you pick up your first cue. Preferably as a teen ager.

If you have skipped this important step then forget about it.

You will never be over a 650 fargo.

Much has to do with natural talent and the amount of time you have to play.

Then there is your ability to analyze and learn and your drive to compete.

Lou Figueroa
and udder stuff too

 

[MmmSharp]

I think focused self-help is the way to go.

When I practice and inevitably miss a shot or blow a position play I will set it up again and try to better understand it and why it went sideways. It can just be a lack of familiarity with the shot or perhaps something mechanical with a certain shot. And if you can add just one or two shots per session this way you can collect quite a few in a year's time.

As to mechanics, sometimes asking an experienced player to watch and asking for input can be valuable. Or even just doing some self diagnosis with video can be good. Lastly, I think experimentation with your PSR is good and when you're shooting particularly well paying attention to how you step into the shots can lead to long term improvement.

Lou Figueroa

I lose so many games doing this. The opponent hates it, and calls me a cheater when i reset up the shot i just missed. Wink.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Always remember to get competent instruction on fundamentals at the time you pick up your first cue. Preferably as a teen ager.

What teenager does that? I don't know of one. Probably not a single teenager in this country comes into this forum to read anything. Their cellphone has been in their hand since six and takes up the time.
Only one youngster that I know about got professional training starting at the age of 10 and all throughout his teen years which
produced the greatest record in college history and amateur events. He even beat some champion pro players. His name is Landon Shuffett. His pappy is a professional instructor and wrote a 6 lb. book on a facet of pool known as aiming. But a lot more
went into his success than just that. It included all facets of pool.
I think Mosconi stood on a milk carton as a child to reach the table and pretty much learned it on his own.