legality of 2nd ball 8 ball break
- Thread starter berlowmj
- Start date
2nd ball break is not illegal; whoever told you that is retarded. My friends and I use it all the time in league, even BCA vegas league.
It's a handy lil break
It's a handy lil break
here's the rules for the break for 8-ball, from the bca website:
LEGAL BREAK SHOT
(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls re-racked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to re-break.
LEGAL BREAK SHOT
(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls re-racked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to re-break.
dabarbr said:
Newbie Question: why?
My Experience
Before I reworked my break shots, I was breaking one time and mishit the cue ball, and it went to the left of the rack with lots of right english, came up behind the rack and hit between the 1st and 2nd ball on the left from the back. Well, my opponent jumped out of his chair, and said that was illegal.
We went and got the TD,and described what happened, and it was ruled fair since I also had made a ball. The match was hill-to-hill, and probably why I tended to overpower the break some. I proceeded to run the table and won the match. I was the talk of the room for quite some time..... LOL
In 8 ball, you can hit any ball you want on the Break as long as 4 balls hit a rail or you make a ball. I have seen players that hit the 3rd ball on a side break instead of the 2nd ball.
But if you do, be prepared to show your opponent that it is NOT against the rules.
Before I reworked my break shots, I was breaking one time and mishit the cue ball, and it went to the left of the rack with lots of right english, came up behind the rack and hit between the 1st and 2nd ball on the left from the back. Well, my opponent jumped out of his chair, and said that was illegal.
We went and got the TD,and described what happened, and it was ruled fair since I also had made a ball. The match was hill-to-hill, and probably why I tended to overpower the break some. I proceeded to run the table and won the match. I was the talk of the room for quite some time..... LOL
In 8 ball, you can hit any ball you want on the Break as long as 4 balls hit a rail or you make a ball. I have seen players that hit the 3rd ball on a side break instead of the 2nd ball.
But if you do, be prepared to show your opponent that it is NOT against the rules.
berlowmj said:
R. Givens book, as good as it is, is strictly about playing 8-ball on a 7' barbox. It doesn't pertain to playing on 9' tables, which is where most pro play happens. Regardless of table size, the most consistent break happens by hitting the head ball square, and controlling the CB. This gives the best opportunity to disperse the energy from the break shot completely into the rack, and leaving none on the CB (assuming you hit the CB with dead center...no top, bottom, right or left). The 2nd ball break cannot be played with center ball, as it is a natural scratch...so most people juice it up with a lot of draw and english. When you break this way, you get a less effecient transfer of energy (since there will be lots of spin on the CB after contact with the rack, which is energy that could have been used to spread the balls more), and subsequently a lesser chance of pocketing a ball and controlling the CB. jmo
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee said:
It is not about maximum energy....it is about moving the top three balls out toward the middle of the table, thus allowing the 8-ball a free pathway.
Also, one can control the cueball quite well with the second ball break. A little low outside and the CB hits the side rail, the reverse kills it and it parks itself on the end rail or close to it. This position is good if you make a ball on the break and have the skill to make an up-table shot or thin cut into an adjacent corner. And it is bad for your opponent, if you didn't make one on the break, if he can't make those shots from the end rail very well. So, it becomes a two-way shot, good or bad, depending on your opponent.
jmo, too,
How ya doing, Scott...gonna be in Iowa soon? I'm ready for another lesson.
Jeff Livingston
Scott Lee said:
Thank you for trying to add a little insight to those who prefer the 2nd ball break. That break is no good unless the 8 counts for the win on the break. Or for those who aren't confident they can break well and/or run out and want to try to turn the game into several innings by not spreading the rack wide open.
Scott Lee said:
I never really understood why people would want to hit the 2nd ball and opt to not squat the cue ball on the break, as you mentioned. Everyone touts the benefit of "making the 8 on the break" but the % may only be increased slightly-- meaning, it's almost never a factor in a set. You might go from "never" to "almost never" by hitting the 2nd ball, and losing the CB while doing so.
Scott, what about hitting the 2nd ball as a form of strategy? There's no doubt the rack is more mucked by hitting the 2nd ball down. If you're playing someone with a higher speed than yourself, does it make sense to break this way, hoping to prevent a run-out if you fail to pocket a ball or hoping to create a safety-battle after the break?
Personally, for me, there's almost no scenario where I wouldn't hit the 1st ball and squat the ball... but I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on purposely mucking the break against better players (I have friends who SWEAR by this). My feeling is if the opponent is better, what makes you think you'll win the ensuing safety battle?
Dave
Just curious
senor said:
The 2nd ball break, IMO, is very important on a bar box if you are playing a decent player that doesn't have great command of the cueball for cluster break out. If you are a solid player and make a ball you either 1) have an easy runout or 2) have a few clusters that you can break apart if you are a good player. If you do not make a ball then they either have a shot at a runout or in situation 2 probably won't be able to get break out the clusters and get out at the same time. So that lends to them making 4 or 5 of their balls and clearing the table for your runout when they don't break the cluster.
Either head break or 2nd ball you still have to hope that you make a ball. I would just rather deal with a few clusters to get out then cram it wide open for solid opponents to get out on me.
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Break shot
Most people are not trying to make the 8 offf a 2nd ball hit. They have been told or shown that they can get a good spread and easily make a ball with that type of break, especially for someone that can not break good from the front ball. It levels the playing field some for a weaker player.
Also, when a bar table is not breaking good from the front ball, the 2nd ball break will yield better results most of the time. It could be because the cloth is worn, the balls are dirty.
Also, I do not agree with the best break being off a 'dead ball' hit (cueing cue ball dead center). A little english puts english on the object balls coming out of the pack and the object balls have more 'action' on them coming off the rails, which results in balls going in that would not otherwise.
The english put onto the object balls more than makes up for any energy loss on the cue ball by putting some english on it. I use about 3/4 tip left and down when I break from the right side, about 1-1 1/2" to the left of where the first diamonds cross on the table.
Most people are not trying to make the 8 offf a 2nd ball hit. They have been told or shown that they can get a good spread and easily make a ball with that type of break, especially for someone that can not break good from the front ball. It levels the playing field some for a weaker player.
Also, when a bar table is not breaking good from the front ball, the 2nd ball break will yield better results most of the time. It could be because the cloth is worn, the balls are dirty.
Also, I do not agree with the best break being off a 'dead ball' hit (cueing cue ball dead center). A little english puts english on the object balls coming out of the pack and the object balls have more 'action' on them coming off the rails, which results in balls going in that would not otherwise.
The english put onto the object balls more than makes up for any energy loss on the cue ball by putting some english on it. I use about 3/4 tip left and down when I break from the right side, about 1-1 1/2" to the left of where the first diamonds cross on the table.
Snapshot9 said:
I'm thinking about what you wrote. By the way, I don't know either way...
But if you apply english on the CB, wouldn't only 1/2 the balls have the action you mentioned because of the gear affect? Meaning, every other ball would have the opposite "action" you describe because they might be spinning back into the rack? So, 1/2 balls would have more action than a dead-ball hit, and the other half would have less? So, a dead-break would have fewer "hot" balls as you described, but overall a better result?
Honestly, I'm not downing what you're saying... I'm just pondering. One result of english on the break is for certain: I've been staring at your post for a while now and not working in my office, trying to figure it out. I guess is that it's random based on the equipment / conditions. Sometimes your way is better, other times a dead-hit.. depending on humidity, cloth, cleanliness of balls, etc. Personally, all I know is squatting the ball gives me the steering wheel if a make a ball. Since it's not a lock that you make the ball on the 2nd ball down, I like at least being in the center of the table if I DO make it... and go from there.
Let's not get carried away. When you get past the 2nd or 3rd ball of contact, the gearing effects become negligible very quickly. In addition, with the rack all connected like it is this even further diminishes the transfer of english to the balls. Finally, any 3 balls touching in a perfect triangle (which all of them are in a good rack), the gearing effects will get cancelled / blocked. For example, if you look at any gearing mechanism (i.e. a watch or clock), you will never see 3 gears arranged in a triangle pattern all on the same plane. Why? Because the cogs won't turn.
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FLICKit said:
Makes sense to me...
Secaucus Fats
Banned
Gregg said: