Leon Sly review

Rocket354

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've noticed on this board that almost all reviews of cues and cuemakers either seem to be completely positive or completely negative. Basically, unless the guy completely screws up, you'll only ever hear good things.

This stems of course from people not wanting to come across as complainers, and saying good things is seen as polite. But mostly, it comes from the fact that who is going to denigrate a cue that one will at some point turn around and sell? Add in a few friends scratching each other's backs, and, well, most praise on this board can basically be ignored.

So I write this review with one goal in mind--not pimping someone's cue, or bringing someone down, but for pure information. All good and all bad aspects will be included in this and any other review I write. Perhaps others will do the same.

That all said, that's not to say I'm unhappy with my Leon Sly cue, not at all. I love it and I've found what I think will be my player for a long time.

First, the pics:

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I got the cue close to two months ago, with one shaft, which is the one on the top/right in the pictures. Mr. Sly was very pleasant to deal with, and shipped the cue out promptly.

18.6oz, ivory ferrule, beautiful wood, immaculate ringwork, sublime balance, the cue was amazing. I knew I had found the "one."

I've done a fair amount of business with cuemakers, and have been buying/selling/trading a number of cues mostly through here. I like Leon's cue more than any other cue I've had, and he's been by far the most pleasant to deal with.

I'm far from a woodworker, but to my eye his technical accuracy in this cue is better than any I've owned, save for an Andy Gilbert. The points are all even, the splice clean, and, very importantly to me, the ringwork is especially clean and nice.

There was only one issue with the cue, and it wasn't really Leon's fault. He had gotten an order of finish in that was faulty right from the manufacturer. What would happen is as it would dry, tiny bubbles would appear. So the cue I got looked like it was dusted with sawdust, although not noticeable on the maple, and only somewhat noticeable on the coco (very apparent on the buttcap, of course).

He told me to send it back and he would fix it free, and pay for shipping. I took the opportunity to order a second shaft, also with an ivory ferrule.

A week and a half later it was back in my hands. This time there were three issues, or perhaps I should say just one issue, that manifested itself in three different areas.

There was a ding in the finish near the buttcap (not noticeable in the pics). One could now see and feel the line that is the connection between buttcap and handle (very slight; barely noticeable in the third pic from the bottom). Finally, the ringwork on the second shaft was of noticeably lower quality than the ringwork on the orginal shaft and cue, as the pictures show. The maple was thinner, and had some black appear to bleed into it.

He told me when I sent the cue back that he was busy but would put me first, and I think what I got back showed that he was in a hurry.

He has offered to have me send the cue back and fix things I'm unhappy with, but I like the cue too much to part with it for any period of time. I've taken a rain check on that service, and I know I'll have no problem in the future when I decide to finally take him up on the offer. He's always been extremely prompt in his responses to inquiries, and has always been very willing to talk on the phone about anything and everything.

Grades:

Playability/feel of the cue -- A+
Technical quality of the cue -- A (just original cue, not 2nd shaft)
Technical quality of 2nd shaft -- B+
Ease of interactions/promptness of communication -- A+
Service -- B-

His shafts are superb, made of high quality wood and smooth like butter through my fingers. The second shaft is no different, but the subpar ringwork docks it a bit.

His rush job on the refinish and second shaft is what docks him on service. Of course I can't ignore the perfect execution of the craftsmanship of the original cue and shaft, nor the fact that the lines of communication are always open with him. Also, I've not seen the slightest hint that my situation was anything other than an aberration, so I feel very confident in my dealings with him going forward.

Update: I finally sent the cue back to Leon and he made everything good, and even threw in a few extras at no charge. Details on page 3.
 
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Yes I have to agree it is a pretty good review the only part I would disagree with is the B- for Customer service ... I feel Sly has excellent customer service and also we are pretty tight and talk at least once a day if not more ... I got a cue out of the same batch of finish and I did not even notice the small white dots in the coco they were very small... But right after Sly got off the phone with you about the spots he called me and asked me to check my cue as it came from that same batch ... I had to look pretty close ... I mean very close and I saw about 3 of them ... Sly then asked me to send the cue back to him... I declined because to me the cue looked good and to be honest it played to good that I did not want to let it go ... I mean we are talking about a 350.00 Sneaky here ... And I would of never known if Sly had not called me when he found out the batch of finish was bad ... Heck the cue still shined and look perfect I would of felt like I was nit picking him if I sent the cue back ...

Also on the shaft I remember you PMing me asking what Sly charged for a shaft ... I told you for a standard shaft it was 150.00 and you thought that was to high ... You then asked Sly to make you the extra shaft that is a standard 150.00 ... You added a ivory ferrell that is a extra 75.00 and he replaced both tips to your specs and brand .. He gets 35.00 per tip replacement ...Totaled that would of been 295.00 for the work... The shaft alone without the 2 tip replacements ...Is 225.00 with a Ivory ferrell... Sly only charged you 120.00 shipped becuase you did not like the price and he wanted to make you happy ...

To me that seems like some excellent customer service plus he is always willing to make any complaints right ... He even went as far as to call me about a problem I was not even aware of ...

I'm not trying to knock you for your review but I think as you stated in your opening people do not always state all the truths ... And I think you left a few out ... Cue making is a tough job and some customers are very hard to please ... I think you posted a very good review and just posted a few pieces that did not tell both sides of the story and I wanted to see them go on record ... Sly does provide excellent customer service before and after the sale ... You can't make everyone happy but in a tough business such as this where your dealing with the public Sly does go above beyond to make sure his customers are satisfied ... I have talked with several cue makers and the horror stories they tell me of customers expectations at times would make me never go into that line of work ...And makes me wonder why they do it ... And I'm not refering to you here Rocker I'm speaking in general...

Again nice review and I'm not trying to bust your chops but the bottom line is if you want a diamond you need to pay for a diamond ... if you pay for a imitation chances are your not going to get a full diamond...How would the man stay in business at those prices he has a family to feed also...
 
The review seems fair and unbiased. The second shaft would have never made it out of a top tier cue makers shop, regardless of price. The one question I have is does the ring work match up perfectly?
 
I'm not questioning his work on the shaft ... But I know Sly well enough to know now that you mention it that he is pretty fussy about what does leave his shop ... And besides Sly has already offered as always to fix what ever problem exsists ...

My questions were directed at the part about his customer service which I feel is top of the line ... And I feel most people would agree with that... Sly posts many pictures of his work and I don't think I have ever seen anything that did not look good and as it should be ...
 
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The King said:
I'm not questioning his work on the shaft I have not seen the shaft and I doubt that you have either ... But I know Sly well enough to know now that you mention it that he is pretty fussy about what does leave his shop ...

My questions were directed at the part about his customer service which I feel is top of the line ... And I feel most people would agree with that... Sly posts many pictures of his work and I don't think I have ever seen anything that did not look good and as it should be ...


Ahh Dude, he posted a pic of both shafts, and one is clearly sub par. Must have not been too fussy that day.
 
The King said:
My questions were directed at the part about his customer service which I feel is top of the line ... And I feel most people would agree with that...

It's quite obvious how you feel about Leon Sly and his cues. But if you really care about him and his work, then please don't over-hype him or his work. Let his work stand for him.

Not sure how or why you became a spoke person for him but if I was him, I'd just sell through bamacues (Joe Lolley) who simply sell a cue with fact, provide great customer service and let the product speak for themselves.

Both cuemaker and the customer will have good and bad experience.
 
Id say the review is fair. a "b" for customer service is just based on his experience. Its not bad like an "f" but to him it just wasnt perfect and its his review so he can say what he wants. To me, that shaft would be unacceptable.
 
Great review overall.
Sly called me yesterday on his dime and we talked for about a half hour.
I ordered a coco/maple sneaky with 2 shafts. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time and the fact that he was willing to rectify the situation at any cost with you shows me that I made the right decision for my first custom cue and the maker. Sly gave me a time frame in which I can expect my cue and I was prepared to wait alot longer than what he gave me.
His cues get rave reviews as does his service.
Now all I have to do is wait until I get that baby in my hands.
Terry.
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
Great review overall.
Sly called me yesterday on his dime and we talked for about a half hour.
I ordered a coco/maple sneaky with 2 shafts. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time and the fact that he was willing to rectify the situation at any cost with you shows me that I made the right decision for my first custom cue and the maker. Sly gave me a time frame in which I can expect my cue and I was prepared to wait alot longer than what he gave me.
His cues get rave reviews as does his service.
Now all I have to do is wait until I get that baby in my hands.
Terry.


Exactly. as long as he makes it right in the end thats all that matters. i dont think anyone will stay away from his cues due to a small issue with one. I hope to be getting one of my own soon enough.
 
Thanks for the review. Seemed to be very fair to me, and only solidified my desire to add a Sly to my arsenal at some point.

Thanks again,
Zach
 
[QUOTE by Jazz ]
Not sure how or why you became a spoke person for him but if I was him, I'd just sell through bamacues (Joe Lolley) who simply sell a cue with fact, provide great customer service and let the product speak for themselves.
QUOTE]


Well first off I am not a spokesman for Leon nor do I have any of Leon's cues for sale ... Any cue I get from Leon is for my own personal use ... Leon and I are freinds and we talk often. I think selling cues for Leon through Joe is a great idea and have told Leon such or building what he wants to build then posting them on AZ for people to buy what he builds and saying, here it is. As several cue makers do would be great also . I think it would cut out alot of the hassels of dealing with customers that you can never satisfy ... But that is Leon's call and not mine ...

As for how I feel about Leon's cues yeah I think they are great and it is what I use to play with as my personal player ... It is not over hype but how I feel there is no falseness in what I say that statement sounds more like jealousy then any thing else. And like Rocket I am entitled to my own opinions and my life does not revolve around AZ. So the trouble makers and the ones who like to jump into every thread that beats down a cuemaker or are jealous over what another is saying don't bother me ... In fact I laugh at the fools who hide behind thier computers and user names. They critique something nice that someone can build with thier hands and they have trouble cleaning themselves after going to the bathroom... And thier are a few of those trolls in this thread ... Rocket is right, there are those that post reviews with seldom anything negative to say ... But for every good review thier are many good cues that never get a good review. And on the flip side thier are to many of the type of posters here at AZ and some of them are in this thread. That have nothing in thier lives to do but troll AZ looking for negative threads and you see thier names in almost every negative thread downing someone and you know they must be miserable , sad and lonely people and it is all they have to live for ... :shakehead:

I'm going to voice my opinion and say what I have to say and you know where they can go cause it does not matter to me they don't bother me and I have faced much graver situations then someone hiding behind a keyboard ... I like AZ and think it is a great place and I'm not trying to be disrespectful or mean spirited so I apologize in advance if you think I am.

The main point I was trying to get across is that Leon provides great customer service and he cares about his customers and is not trying to or putting a bad product out there and you can see by reading this thread there are those that have good sense AND recognize that fact . AND that's not an opinion but a fact ...

Have a good day people I've had my say ...
 
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The King said:
Yes I have to agree it is a pretty good review the only part I would disagree with is the B- for Customer service ... I feel Sly has excellent customer service and also we are pretty tight and talk at least once a day if not more ... I got a cue out of the same batch of finish and I did not even notice the small white dots in the coco they were very small... But right after Sly got off the phone with you about the spots he called me and asked me to check my cue as it came from that same batch ... I had to look pretty close ... I mean very close and I saw about 3 of them ... Sly then asked me to send the cue back to him... I declined because to me the cue looked good and to be honest it played to good that I did not want to let it go ... I mean we are talking about a 350.00 Sneaky here ... And I would of never known if Sly had not called me when he found out the batch of finish was bad ... Heck the cue still shined and look perfect I would of felt like I was nit picking him if I sent the cue back ...

Also on the shaft I remember you PMing me asking what Sly charged for a shaft ... I told you for a standard shaft it was 150.00 and you thought that was to high ... You then asked Sly to make you the extra shaft that is a standard 150.00 ... You added a ivory ferrell that is a extra 75.00 and he replaced both tips to your specs and brand .. He gets 35.00 per tip replacement ...Totaled that would of been 295.00 for the work... The shaft alone without the 2 tip replacements ...Is 225.00 with a Ivory ferrell... Sly only charged you 120.00 shipped becuase you did not like the price and he wanted to make you happy ...

To me that seems like some excellent customer service plus he is always willing to make any complaints right ... He even went as far as to call me about a problem I was not even aware of ...

I'm not trying to knock you for your review but I think as you stated in your opening people do not always state all the truths ... And I think you left a few out ... Cue making is a tough job and some customers are very hard to please ... I think you posted a very good review and just posted a few pieces that did not tell both sides of the story and I wanted to see them go on record ... Sly does provide excellent customer service before and after the sale ... You can't make everyone happy but in a tough business such as this where your dealing with the public Sly does go above beyond to make sure his customers are satisfied ... I have talked with several cue makers and the horror stories they tell me of customers expectations at times would make me never go into that line of work ...And makes me wonder why they do it ... And I'm not refering to you here Rocker I'm speaking in general...

Again nice review and I'm not trying to bust your chops but the bottom line is if you want a diamond you need to pay for a diamond ... if you pay for a imitation chances are your not going to get a full diamond...How would the man stay in business at those prices he has a family to feed also...

It sounds like you got some good service from Sly. I was conflicted on the grades, as I wasn't sure exactly how to grade it out. It's tough, that's why I included the full story. Before posting the review here, I did send it to Leon and he approved it. I did that so he could tell me if he felt the review was fair.

As for the shaft and prices, he quoted me the price at $150 (when I first asked for the quote, I asked for it without an ivory ferrule). You and I were in communication at that point and I mentioned to you that $150 seemed a bit high, with $100-120 seeming to be the norm . I did not mention that to Leon at all, as it's his business and he can charge whatever he wants to charge. I accepted that price since I love the cue that much and his shafts are great.

I did ask for a tip change on the original shaft while he was doing the refinish, and I also switched to an ivory ferrule for the 2nd shaft. I also offered to pay extra. When he was done, for the second shaft plus retipping the original shaft, he asked for $120 instead of $150, to cover the shipping costs I incurred sending the cue back to him for repair, and the time and trouble involved.

At the time I wrote the review I thought getting into such nitty-gritty details was unnecessary, but now that I've written it out I see that perhaps the information is pertinent, since it shows just what type of person Mr. Sly is--a stand-up, honest individual. I think $150 for a shaft with an ivory ferrule is more than fair, and knocking $30 off the price plus giving a free tip change in exchange for shipping and trouble is more than fair. Seeing now that he would normally charge $225 for all that just makes me appreciate his service more.
 
i think the thing that messed everything up is your interpretation of what rocket meant when he created the "service" category. judging from your posts, you are interpreting it as leon's communications with rocket while rocket meant for it to represent leon's ability to provide what he says. as you said before, you disagree with his rating of b- for the category of "customer service" (stated in your first post) and you disagreed with this because leon is very easy to communicate with and accomodating. however, this is not what rocket was referring to, he never referred to that category as "customer service" to begin with. he called it "service" and explained the lower rating was due to leon's rush job. right above his "service" category is the communications category which gives an A+, this is the same thing that you were applauding leon for in your first post. essentially, you both agreed on that point so i dont see why theres a discrepancy.

u then further stated that u're not questioning the work on the shaft so u agree with rocket's assessment of it as well so i just dont understand why u are in disagreement with him. he never once said that leon's customer service was bad or deserving of a b-, in fact he said it's an A+. perhaps you misread or misunderstood the "service" category that rocket created as he is not referring to "customer service" as you claim it is.

for further clarity, i think a better name for the service category would be attention to detail. as rocket stated, leon did a rush job on the second shaft which resulted in dirty ringwork that did not match. furthermore, it seems leon was unaware of the finish problems until rocket brought it up. if rocket can see it, leon should have been able to see it before it left his shop as well. another problem was the ding in the butt after the rocket sent it in for repairs as well as being able to feel where the buttcap and buttsleeve connected. so while leon may usually be very "fussy" regarding his work, in rocket's case there are problems which warrants the grade that he gave.
 
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hangemhigh said:
The review seems fair and unbiased. The second shaft would have never made it out of a top tier cue makers shop, regardless of price. The one question I have is does the ring work match up perfectly?

I assume you mean when the shaft is screwed on does its ring work line up with the ring work on the butt? The ring work is very slightly off on the first shaft. I think it matched up perfectly when I first got the cue, but maybe it has loosened ever-so-slightly since then; either that or I just didn't screw it on all that tight the first day or two I had the cue. For the second shaft, the ring work simply does not line up.

For me, that doesn't matter too much. This isn't a $4k show cue, but my everyday player. The ring work on the second shaft being a little "dirty" is somewhat disappointing, especially given the fabulous work done on the original shaft and on the cue itself.
 
Danktrees said:
i think the thing that messed everything up is your interpretation of what rocket meant when he created the "service" category. judging from your posts, you are interpreting it as leon's communications with rocket while rocket meant for it to represent leon's ability to provide what he says. as you said before, you disagree with his rating of b- for the category of "customer service" (stated in your first post) and you disagreed with this because leon is very easy to communicate with and accomodating. however, this is not what rocket was referring to, he never referred to that category as "customer service" to begin with. he called it "service" and explained the lower rating was due to leon's rush job. right above his "service" category is the communications category which gives an A+, this is the same thing that you were applauding leon for in your first post. essentially, you both agreed on that point so i dont see why theres a discrepancy.

u then further stated that u're not questioning the work on the shaft so u agree with rocket's assessment of it as well so i just dont understand why u are in disagreement with him. he never once said that leon's customer service was bad or deserving of a b-, in fact he said it's an A+. perhaps you misread or misunderstood the "service" category that rocket created as he is not referring to "customer service" as you claim it is.

for further clarity, i think a better name for the service category would be attention to detail. as rocket stated, leon did a rush job on the second shaft which resulted in dirty ringwork that did not match. furthermore, it seems leon was unaware of the finish problems until rocket brought it up. if rocket can see it, leon should have been able to see it before it left his shop as well. another problem was the ding in the butt after the rocket sent it in for repairs as well as being able to feel where the buttcap and buttsleeve connected. so while leon may usually be very "fussy" regarding his work, in rocket's case there are problems which warrants the grade that he gave.

Good post, Dank, you clarified my position very well. The whole grading methodology is rife with peril...
 
Eric, I think it's a fair review very well said i told you to send it back when you could i would fix the problem Guarnteed, my policy is 200% Guarnteed to the customer or your money back that's how i work my customers come first my wife and Dog come second Thanks again Sly!!!!
 
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The King said:
So the trouble makers and the ones who like to jump into every thread that beats down a cuemaker or are jealous over what another is saying don't bother me ... In fact I laugh at the fools who hide behind thier computers and user names..

If you're ever in northern California (SF area), then please let me know and you can match the face to the user name. I've met few non-local AZers in person ... in fact, just last week in Vegas where I went to meet some people even though I don't play in APA league.
 
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