Lessons ! Just get some lessons !!

My lessons were done "on the road" with seasoned RoadPlayers

lfigueroa said:
*Because* people don't practice and implement what they are taught. It's as easy as that.

I can't count the number of times someone has asked me for advice and I have given it to them and... three weeks later I see them and they are doing exactly what they did before. I'm not talking esoteric modifications to their play -- I'm talking very basic things that any decent pool player would point out like a more level cue, a solid bridge, maybe just not raising up as they're stroking.

Part of that is: people will not pay attention to free advice; people will not invest in practice; people (even those who have paid for lessons) will not make the commitment to change.

And sometimes, to be honest, instructors give out bad advice. I have seen instructors tear apart a player's game -- knowing full well these were once a week league players -- and treat them like they were going to go into training 10 hours a day, seven days a week, and completely rebuild their game. That dan't work so good either -- the instructor has to tailor things to the player for a good fit. Not all do that, instead giving out a standard lesson plan to one and all.

And don't get me started on the "instructors" with pivoting, three-angle aiming systems and all kinds of other cockamamy :-)

Lou Figueroa
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Taking "Lessons" is another way of saying taking "Classes" and we all took classes to learn reading, writing, english, math, ect. I even took piano, trumpet and drum lesson when I was in my pre teenage years. Any higher education is usually done by taking lessons/classes.

My lessons were done "on the road" with seasoned RoadPlayers that had a vested interest in me winning by betting on the side. I didn't doubt their knowledge because it was from the "school of hard knocks", and they also learned from passed down "road knowledge".

To learn this Game is very difficult without someone to teach, share or allow you to model their game and systems/techniques. Am I saying this necessary to be a great player? Yes, I am, there are no exceptions.

However, that's to be a great player, if you want to just play to have fun and enjoy the Game and social experience then it's not necessary at all. Overall it's just a way of escape, release, enjoyment, gambling, socializing, or self expression for the most part. In many ways the Game is BETTER if you don't get too good. :wink: Pool's one game that when you get to be on top of the ladder the only thing left is to fall. :smile: Just Kidding :groucho:
 
Well,

Lou shown up some point you ll find over and over again-especially the point he wrote about where players/students don t *do* and *practice* what they ve been taught.

Over the last years i was lucky to be able to talk a lot with instructors and addicted players all over the planet. If we are talking about instruction lessons, we need to talk also about *the relationship* between a student and a teacher/instructor. This is one of the most important parts- if it doesn t click between the two humans- it s of course a waste of time!
To try to find out *who has the wrong attitude*, or who did something wrong, or who forgot to make this or that.......that s not really worth to find out.

Important is the right attitude on BOTH sides. The instructor as well as the student have to be serious.

If i tell a student *to practice this or that*, i expect that he will do it- if i then see or just have the feeling, that he gives a shit (sry if that sounds too harsh^^), i ll let him know, will tell him ONCE again- and if nothing happens i ll also let him know, that it really doesn t make sense to go on.

A very nice example: A student just came over for one week to practice with me. A very talented young man, and a strong 100 ball runner. When i startet with him, i told him to work on a special drill for 5-10 minutes a day. Over a period of about one year he increased his skills wonderful- he had nice results, including reaching 3 *milestones* (how i call goals, student have to write down for themselves right on beginning).

Back to the point *student does not do what he s being taught*
On the 2nd day i started with him to work on kicking systems. After setting him up the first basic shots and practice positions he missed the 1st position about 5-6 times in a row- After this 1-2 minutes i told him right in the face, that he never practiced *those daily 5 minutes* like i shown him and recommened him. He looked at me a bit surprised and also a bit kind of ashamed. He immediatley saw, that he did a mistake in rating *the exersize* himself as not necessary enough :-). But it had also a good thing- next to having fun (myself) to see his face, he was also surprised that i saw after 1-2 minutes that he never made the *homework* on this part.

Well- this is what several guys wrote about- Many players are *rating* the exersizes and drills they ve been shown or taught. But where was the mistake? Did I (the instructor) ve been not precise enough? Or was it the students fault bc being lazy or by *rating the advice wrong*?

So- all in all: The quality of the relationship is important. Both have to believe each other- If this is not given, not a single lesson is worth to be done!

About the postings *sense of working with instructors* i will not really write something. That would be just *bad blood part XXXV* or so^^.

Everything is about having the right attitude- that s it.


lg from overseas,

Ingo
 
Neil and Roger, I too will apologize for snapping a bit quickly in my response earlier.

While I meant everything I said, it sure sounds whining. I don't mean it to.

And Roger, I do "take my lessons" here locally, as often as I can. I spend as much time playing with the better players here as I can. They are all willing to help, not just me, but anyone who wants to learn. Small pond and all, we have a pretty good group of people here. Just this past week an opportunity came up in one of my league matches to use a technique I had been taught a couple months earlier. I recognized it, executed it (almost successfully, heh...got the hit, missed the pocket) and cant wait to tell the person who taught it to me. To let him know I was listening, and it stuck with me.

It has long been my hope to arrange a proper lesson with one (or more) of the fantastic folks I have met here on AZB. Someday, perhaps, stuff will come together and make that possible. Fortunately, there are so many here that give advice and help freely, and please don't think that fact is taken for granted, at least by me. I appreciate it so very much. Thanks, gang.
 
Roger Long said:
I can agree with everything you said except for the last sentence, Lou.

I've gone on record as saying that CTE/Pro One is all about marketing. I will stand behind that statement, but I should have been more explicit by saying that the CONTROVERSY over CTE/Pro One is due to its marketing here on AZB.

"CTE" and "Pro One" are labels that are meant to describe specific ways of aiming. Some people do not understand, or use, these systems, and therefore disagree with their right to be promoted (marketed) here at all. These people have argued vehemently against the system, but I think they've just been resentful because the system won't simply go away.

However, Stan has developed a product that has been shown to help many players improve their games. And in my opinion, he has priced his DVD fairly. I have no idea what he charges for private lessons, but that's none of my business, anyway. What matters is that those who have taken them have reported success and satisfaction.

And even though I've had bitter exchanges with Spidey, Neil, JB, and Joey, I do not believe for a moment that they, or Stan, have ever been deceitful towards anyone. Some of them have been brutally honest, but honest nonetheless. All-in-all, I haven't seen anything "cockamamy" in their descriptions of CTE/Pro One.

I sincerely hope that this post does not open old wounds, but instead will serve as a start towards new understanding and tolerance. Also, I like, and greatly respect you, Lou. Won't you please join me in trying to bring peace to the aiming threads?

Roger
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Roger, hugs and kisses to you too, but I don't follow you. I certainly don't have any resentment about anyone's aiming system.

As to "peace to the aiming threads" -- I don't know what you mean there either. I believe that as long as you can logically explain why you think an aiming system is ca-ca you should be able to express that opinion in a polite manner. When I pay for a DVD and I end up feeling the system it describes is clearly bogus I think I should be able to say that, just as those that find it to propose a path they want to follow on their pool journey should be allowed to politely endorse it.

As to the word "cockamamy" that has always been, to me, a synonym for "ridiculous" not necessarily deceitful nor dishonest. Just ridiculous. And some systems are.

Lou Figueroa
 
Don't forget my offer to you.....it still stands.



justadub said:
Neil and Roger, I too will apologize for snapping a bit quickly in my response earlier.

While I meant everything I said, it sure sounds whining. I don't mean it to.

And Roger, I do "take my lessons" here locally, as often as I can. I spend as much time playing with the better players here as I can. They are all willing to help, not just me, but anyone who wants to learn. Small pond and all, we have a pretty good group of people here. Just this past week an opportunity came up in one of my league matches to use a technique I had been taught a couple months earlier. I recognized it, executed it (almost successfully, heh...got the hit, missed the pocket) and cant wait to tell the person who taught it to me. To let him know I was listening, and it stuck with me.

It has long been my hope to arrange a proper lesson with one (or more) of the fantastic folks I have met here on AZB. Someday, perhaps, stuff will come together and make that possible. Fortunately, there are so many here that give advice and help freely, and please don't think that fact is taken for granted, at least by me. I appreciate it so very much. Thanks, gang.
Click to expand...
 
Yoda4962 said:
Players want to get better, but they think the solution will come to them in their dreams in the middle of the night.

I don't understand why they wont get lessons or coaching, and learn what others have already busted their buts to learn. !

LOL
Click to expand...

I believe that most people starting out or even average players don't know where to go for coaching. I asked one of the shooters in a local bar to help me work on my banking. Sure he says. Just watch me...$80 bucks to watch some guy make bank shots while not explaining english, speed, nothing. Disheartening. Told him he was full of it. Later, Dave Matlock heard about it and gave me some pointers...for free. Can't be upset about it. Worked out really well. Got hustled by a shark but ended up getting lessons from a pro.

After doing more research, I'll be taking lessons with Stan Shuffett later this year.

Point being, it's hard work finding good help when there are so many sharks in my little pond.
 
David Matlock knows the Game. Stan is highly accomplished as well

delmari001 said:
I believe that most people starting out or even average players don't know where to go for coaching. I asked one of the shooters in a local bar to help me work on my banking. Sure he says. Just watch me...$80 bucks to watch some guy make bank shots while not explaining english, speed, nothing. Disheartening. Told him he was full of it. Later, Dave Matlock heard about it and gave me some pointers...for free. Can't be upset about it. Worked out really well. Got hustled by a shark but ended up getting lessons from a pro.

After doing more research, I'll be taking lessons with Stan Shuffett later this year.

Point being, it's hard work finding good help when there are so many sharks in my little pond.
Click to expand...

David Matlock knows the Game. Stan is highly accomplished as well, stick to men like these two and you'll do fine. Watch out for the "technical sharks", they're all about confusion. :wink:
 
Just for the general discussion about lessons.....

Even though i am a pro player, and run 100's in 14.1. I would give my left arm for coaching from another pro or highly skilled player. (The pros at the major tournaments are very stingy with coaching, it's hard to get. ) My attitude is that no matter what level of play i get to, I believe that there must be a way to improve.

I would hope you all keep your minds open, and TRY EVERYTHING. How else can you grow and learn ?

I think that i have learned and tried every aiming system known to man. Some work for me, some don't, but the learning process brings growth.

FYI, i wonder why that 'triangle' system works so well ? Very interesting what the mind can do !

One parting thought. Do yourself a favor, and get lessons if at all possible. It's a MUCH SHORTER PATH to good play.
 
duckie said:
People like to use the word they in order to give some appearance of relevance to their statement. They this, they that and so on.

Taking lessons is not needed to improve in pool. It's a myth. It's something that those in the market of selling lessons want you to believe. Those that took lessons wants you to believe this so that don't feel bad for taking lesson when not needed.

Practice is what improves your game nothing more or nothing less. No lesson, if you feel you needed them, will improve your game without practice.

And this idea if you don't take lessons you don't want to improve and lazy is absurd. I've never seen so many people that know what eveyone is about,what motivates, what works for them.

Of course I practice what I preach. I'm back on my 4-5 hour practice days again after a summer slow from putting in over 1850 hours at the table last year. This is how I've improved and no lessons would ever have given the info and experience that putting in those hours have done.

I say unless you put in more time than me than y'all are lazy,uncommitted to improving your game.
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All I can say is that to paraphrase Danny McGorty, I know a ton of people who would swim a river of crap to play you.

Anyone who truly feels that lessons have no benefit is in a sad place in their lives. In the leatherworking community we continue to get better and stronger by sharing our knowledge and techniques.

You often force babe cranfield on us. Why did you pick up his book if you were not looking for instruction?

Also, if you really don't think people need lessons then why are you here giving lessons?



www.jbcases.com
 
On the note of lessons...how does one move beyond that? How do I find a coach? Someone who is willing to help me reach my personal goal rather than just show me how to stand and hold a cue? Billiards is more than just cueing, you have pressure situations and learning ways of dealing with that. I need lessons but I'd get farther with a coach. So...how do I go about finding one? Any thoughts?
 
Neil said:
Way back when, some guy saw some lawn game, and wanted to bring it indoors. So, he instructed himself on how to go about it. He then instructed others about the game he "invented". So, obviously, the instructor came first! Not quite the answer you were looking for, was it?? :grin:
Click to expand...

Good One Neil :)

Also, funny how Major League teams hire pitching coaches in the minors and even on the major league team. I mean, these guys have been throwing a baseball since they were 5 years old, little league, pony league, High School, college, minor leagues for years, so after 20 years of throwing a baseball 60' and 6", they need to be coached.....

What happened to the HAMB rule, or in this case TAMB rule ??

Yes, there are some pitchers that were born to pitch and some players that were born to shoot pool, but for the majority of the others, they need some help along the way.

I still cannnot believe that pool is the only sport you don't need any instruction.... is pool really that easy?
 
Neil said:
Way back when, some guy saw some lawn game, and wanted to bring it indoors. So, he instructed himself on how to go about it. He then instructed others about the game he "invented". So, obviously, the instructor came first! Not quite the answer you were looking for, was it?? :grin:
Click to expand...

I look for no answers about anything from you.

And what lawn game used sticks in the manner as a cue?

And how well did spin work in this lawn game?

Did someone write a set of instruction on how to use a cue properly without first learning how to use the cue properly?

Did the understanding of spin come from people that never played the game or from people that first played the game and then past this on to others?
 
duckie said:
Did the understanding of spin come from people that never played the game or from people that first played the game and then past this on to others?
Click to expand...

I hope you realize that learning spin (or any other technique) is much easier when someone TEACHES it to you. Provided, of course, that they know what they are talking about.

All the practice in the world won't make you great if you don't know what it is you're practicing.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Good One Neil :)

Also, funny how Major League teams hire pitching coaches in the minors and even on the major league team. I mean, these guys have been throwing a baseball since they were 5 years old, little league, pony league, High School, college, minor leagues for years, so after 20 years of throwing a baseball 60' and 6", they need to be coached.....

What happened to the HAMB rule, or in this case TAMB rule ??

Yes, there are some pitchers that were born to pitch and some players that were born to shoot pool, but for the majority of the others, they need some help along the way.

I still cannnot believe that pool is the only sport you don't need any instruction.... is pool really that easy?
Click to expand...

I was a middle school pitching coach for 4 years. One of my students went onto a very successful high scool 'career' & a very, very successful college 'career' & was drafted by Houston. He went to the minors where they changed his motion to improve his cuve ball which he really did not even need as he threw 96mph & his change up was awesome. He wound up with an injured elbow & recently gave it up. I would say that they ruined him.

Pool is not that difficult of a 'sport' on the physical side . It is a difficult 'game' on the mental side. I believe 'most' players, depending on the level of their physical fundamentals, could benefit more from a mental or even a psycological coach than a physical stroke instructor.

Just my humble $0.02 opinion.
 
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We live in a society dominated by the need for instant gratification. Everyone is looking for the quick fix, the magic wand, the silver bullet. I guarantee you most people who take a lesson, particularly their first one, are looking for more instant/immediate improvement than they're likely to achieve. Very few are willing to put in the practice time necessary, to incorporate what they learned in the lesson, into their standard game.

I'm a very right brained type of person and take a more mechanical approach to sports. This can be detrimental as well, I all too often tend to over think things rather than just do what "I feel" and let it happen. Lessons from a knowledgeable instructor work well for me as I believe you maximize your performance and minimize the time it takes to get there by starting with a fundamentally sound stroke. I'm not demanding that I'm right but to my way of thinking, why spend much time working on an aiming system until you have a stroke that can reliably and consistently deliver the cue ball to the aim point?

I see people on here post about pool being an easy game. I happen to think that is rather ridiculous. Pool is an immensely complex game when you consider all the aspects of attempting to play at a high level. Knocking pool balls into a pocket is relatively easy and that is true. Unfortunately, to play at a higher level, that is a given. Knocking balls into the pocket while considering CB position, thinking about run outs, considering safeties and everything else is hardly easy.

I took a lesson from Stan for CEI/Pro One or whatever it is several years ago. Stan is a great guy, clearly an accomplished player in his own right and I think, a reasonably good teacher. I simply didn't get the concept and I admit it. I'm guessing it is the whole right brain thing. I'm not condemning his aiming system, I'm simply saying it didn't work for me in the least. Same is true of the SEE stuff, I could understand the concept, it simply seemed like a way to add complexity to aiming without providing any significant value, at least for me. I can understand however that other people who think differently would grab hold of this type of aiming system and love it. Different strokes for different folks.

I firmly believe that duckie would benefit from a lesson, or lessons, were he to somehow become open minded about it and give it a fair try. However, if he prefers doing it his way, more power to him. Probably what is more important is that he clearly loves the game, as proven by the hours he says he puts in, and finds entertainment from it. I often wonder myself how I can justify the hours I put into pool. I have ZERO illusions or visions of grandeur about my potential, I simply love the game. I am fascinated by the geometry and nuances of the game. I've made a lot of new friends and acquaintances playing the game. And at 55 years of age, how many sports can I still go out and compete in at a reasonable level? As stupid as it may sound, I enjoy the team part of APA and I enjoy the competition, as meaningless as it may seem. The lessons I've taken from Scott have been invaluable in helping me enjoy the game more, see measurable improvement and allow me to compete better.
 
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delmari001 said:
On the note of lessons...how does one move beyond that? How do I find a coach? Someone who is willing to help me reach my personal goal rather than just show me how to stand and hold a cue? Billiards is more than just cueing, you have pressure situations and learning ways of dealing with that. I need lessons but I'd get farther with a coach. So...how do I go about finding one? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately in the USA at least pool doesn't really have much in the way of coaches except in certain private situations.

In China I know that instructors do take on the role of coaches. They travel with their players and do what coaches do in other sports. In return they get a percentage of the player's winnings.

My advice would be to try and find a shortstop level player or better who is able and willing to train and travel with you while you play in matches and tournaments. Let them coach you on how they deal with everything that you need to know outside the technical side of how to play.

I can tell you that this advice is well worth it. Once I was in a relationship with a road player that was mostly instruction but some coaching. We went to play a guy that I had played a little before for $100 a game one hole and I quickly got out to a five game lead pushing the coin on the rail. Then I eased up and let it get back to even then a little back and forth and we quit even. My coach then gave me an important piece of advice that has served me well ever since. He said when you play by the game you want to pay by the game because having to pull $100 bills out each game means more and puts more pressure on the loser than moving beads or markers. He felt that if I had insisted on pay by the game then I would have beaten the guy out of a lot of money because I would have had the cash in my pocket and been way more diligent about not easing up and the opponent would be out the cash and feeling the sting.

But with beads on the wire it could be $10 a game or $100 and the pressure or lack of pressure is the same.

This is the type of thing and much much much more that a coach brings to the table. My road partners have kept me calm, told me when I am jumping up, advised me on how to play different people, kept me motivated etc....
 
Very good advice.

JB Cases said:
Unfortunately in the USA at least pool doesn't really have much in the way of coaches except in certain private situations.

In China I know that instructors do take on the role of coaches. They travel with their players and do what coaches do in other sports. In return they get a percentage of the player's winnings.

My advice would be to try and find a shortstop level player or better who is able and willing to train and travel with you while you play in matches and tournaments. Let them coach you on how they deal with everything that you need to know outside the technical side of how to play.

I can tell you that this advice is well worth it. Once I was in a relationship with a road player that was mostly instruction but some coaching. We went to play a guy that I had played a little before for $100 a game one hole and I quickly got out to a five game lead pushing the coin on the rail. Then I eased up and let it get back to even then a little back and forth and we quit even. My coach then gave me an important piece of advice that has served me well ever since. He said when you play by the game you want to pay by the game because having to pull $100 bills out each game means more and puts more pressure on the loser than moving beads or markers. He felt that if I had insisted on pay by the game then I would have beaten the guy out of a lot of money because I would have had the cash in my pocket and been way more diligent about not easing up and the opponent would be out the cash and feeling the sting.

But with beads on the wire it could be $10 a game or $100 and the pressure or lack of pressure is the same.

This is the type of thing and much much much more that a coach brings to the table. My road partners have kept me calm, told me when I am jumping up, advised me on how to play different people, kept me motivated etc....
Click to expand...

Very good advice...."a C-note in the hand is worth two marked up with a coin on a pool table". :wink:
 
Instructor - Coach - Trainer

Hola,

John made a very good and important statement. There s a big difference between being an instructor or being a coach.
Being a coach means that you have to take care for the *complete human* you are working with-and not just showing him this or how to do that. In the case of coaching it includes everything what is necessary to compete. To tell what is necessary to change, or even not.
This is more a relationship, where the coach usually knows almost everything about this *human*, so he can see and feel immediatley if something goes wrong and how to help.
The step from being an instructor to being a coach is a huge one- a very huge step!

The coach then also have to push the human to another level, to tease and poke him-and also has to help him with *non-pool-related* things, that could disturb his pool-game/career.

Being "just" an instructor is usally more about technical nature, to learn him doing things with the cue and how to do it right.

Well written John!

lg
Ingo
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Good One Neil :)

Also, funny how Major League teams hire pitching coaches in the minors and even on the major league team. I mean, these guys have been throwing a baseball since they were 5 years old, little league, pony league, High School, college, minor leagues for years, so after 20 years of throwing a baseball 60' and 6", they need to be coached.....

What happened to the HAMB rule, or in this case TAMB rule ??

Yes, there are some pitchers that were born to pitch and some players that were born to shoot pool, but for the majority of the others, they need some help along the way.

I still cannnot believe that pool is the only sport you don't need any instruction.... is pool really that easy?
Click to expand...


Well-- that s the point, lol. Too many ppl still think that pool is that easy :-) But like almost always.....they tend to know everything and have always the right excuse at the right moment :grin-square:
 
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