Let's talk about money.

Drew

Drew

Got a little dog in you?
Silver Member
The American Poolplayers Association claims 250,000 members. Each member pays $25 in yearly dues. That comes out to $6.25 million. Each member also pays $5 for each weekly event. Assuming each player participates in 10 weekly events a year, each member will contribute $50 per year. That's $12.5 million. Along with the yearly dues, the APA generates $18.75 million per year.

At the APA national teams event, the APA pays out an estimated $600,000. At the APA national singles event, the APA pays out an estimated $300,000. So the players pay $18.75 million, and the APA pays $900,000 back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but $17.65 million is missing.

Edit: It's 17.85 not 17.65. Mental math has never been my thing.
 
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im sure some of this goes to advertising and paying the people who put things together, but thats alot of advertising and salary...
 
Portions of those league fees go to the individual league operators every week.

I agree though, that's a lot of $$$
 
CEO earns 10 million per year. Because of the good result he get a bonus of 7.65 million.
 
ilovepool said:
You pretty much have it right. All they care about is $$$$$$$$
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I don't blame the APA. It's the players' faults. They are getting raped and they know it. Yet they still continue to give away their money.

Why do we not have a professional league? I've said it many times before, the money is there. Don't tell me that there aren't any sponsors either. The APA has over quarter-million sponsors (and they don't care about the investment).
 
This is not a good thing.

ilovepool said:
You pretty much have it right. All they care about is $$$$$$$$
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Amen, and trying to do any thing about it is.
headagainstwall.gif
 
First of all, the numbers are off slightly. It is $20 per year, not $25. And even with all those members, not all are actively playing every session. So while they list that many members, not all of them are paying annual dues every year. That is all the money the league takes in. The weekly fees go to the league operator. The LO buys trophys, handles all the paperwork, mailings, renting tables for tournaments, paying expenses to send teams out to Vegas, etc.
As for the national office, not only do they pay out the tournament money, they pay for the space to hold the nationals, pay the people to run it, pay the refs to officiate over the matches, rent the tables for the tournament, publish a magazine 3 times a year for all their members, and oversee all those local leagues all year long. It's not just a few people taking in all that money...it takes a pretty big staff to run it all.

I'm not saying they aren't making money. If they weren't, there wouldn't even be an APA.

My $20 bucks a year lets me play in a league. I can get about 3 or 4 hours of table time each week for $7 IF I PLAY A MATCH, and for FREE if I don't. I don't know about your location, but some of the rooms around here charge $8 to $10 per hour in the evenings for table time alone. All in all, it seems like a pretty good deal for the players.

It's all in how you look at it.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
The weekly fees go to the league operator. Steve
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Actually, all league operators pay a 20% royalty to the APA.

I assumed 600,000 was active membership, but let's take 2/3 of that and assume 400,000 @ $20 = $8 mil.

Assuming only 10 matches per player yearly is very low. Our APA has 3 sessions (not counting 9 ball, since 8 is the main bread winner) of roughly 14-16 matches per session. Our opperator charges $6 per match. Assuming each APA member plays two session (takes one off) and plays only half of their session's matches, that is at least 14 @ $1.20 x 400,000 = $6.72 mil.

Bringing APA total yearly revenue before expenses to $14.72 mil. Advertising and venue rental.... I would be nearly certain this is covered by advertising revenue from sponsors.

Obviously, the APA could be doing much more to further our sport, but chooses to make the few at the top of the organization rich. Yes, I play APA and enjoy it. Our local room does give discounts, but a much better organization could be made for the players.
 
Yeah, the APA is a profit-making venture, and a successful one. I don't think they're profit is nearly as high as you seem to think, due to the monetary payout for the tri-annuals, the singles events, the fact that they pay their staff, various other prizes given out, etc., but of course, there is a lot of profit there.

But my APA membership pays for itself and then some. I pay $20 a year plus $7 a week, to play 7 or 8 hours of free pool on 9' tables every Thursday night. Over the course of the year, that $20 works out to about $0.40 a week, so I pay $7.40 every Thursday to play pool until I can't see straight. I don't care if the APA makes a huge profit, I'm still coming out ahead.

-Andrew
 
Wow, this is really a ridiculous thread. Do you realize, when you buy a shirt from J.Crew (or K-Mart, pick your pleasure), only 10% AT MOST goes to actually manufacturing the shirt. In other words, you spend $50 on a shirt that costs AT MOST $5 to make. The fact is, that shirt passes through a lot of hands to get to you and each of those people has to get paid.

The APA is no different. It's a huge organization with people that devote their entire lives to its success. They get paid enough to call it a career and I don't think there should be any blame for that.
 
Couple years ago, they sent two of my teams to Vegas...for 8 and 9ball...I stayed there for 9 days, plus $500 in spending money. That $500 alone paid for several sessions worth of play. Also, my league operator has also thrown me spending money for when I play in the U.S. Amatuer Championships.

It's not the worst thing especially when you look at it like it is more geared for the social aspect of pool. Most likely if you are on this site, you are a little more devoted to the pool community and the politics behind it...There are hundreds of thousands of APA members that go just to have fun and don't think that far into it.

Christian
 
Drew said:
The American Poolplayers Association claims 250,000 members. Each member pays $25 in yearly dues. That comes out to $6.25 million. Each member also pays $5 for each weekly event. Assuming each player participates in 10 weekly events a year, each member will contribute $50 per year. That's $12.5 million. Along with the yearly dues, the APA generates $18.75 million per year.

At the APA national teams event, the APA pays out an estimated $600,000. At the APA national singles event, the APA pays out an estimated $300,000. So the players pay $18.75 million, and the APA pays $900,000 back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but $17.65 million is missing.

Edit: It's 17.85 not 17.65. Mental math has never been my thing.
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Maybe i should get a job running the apa leagues cause it looks like they are gettin some good pay=)
 
Alot of rooms are going to in-house leagues...Of course you ain't going to Vegas but who cares as long as the beer is cold right? lol....
 
It looks like you're hinting that the APA should be viewed similarly to a weekly or monthly tournament, which is off-base. As others have said, it's a profit-turning company with operating expenses.
 
tigerseye said:
Maybe i should get a job running the apa leagues cause it looks like they are gettin some good pay=)
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You actually have to BUY a franchise and from what I've seen, it's a pretty good gig.

I mean, this is really what I'm talking about. Let's say you go into an area that does not have the APA. In order to start the APA in that area, you will need to purchase the rights from the APA to start a franchise. That could costs you tens of thousands. Once that's done, you have to build up a following from scratch which is easier said than done.

You look at franchises in Maryland or Chicago and you're talking about machines that have been in place for YEARS. They really made the most of it.

Besides, my personal contribution to the APA has been overwhelmingly minimal. I've spent no more than $100 this year since my bar sponsors my team and I've made about $700 in prizes. With three trips to Vegas under my belt, I have to believe I'm completely in the black. I can't say the same about any other tour or any other league I'm a part of.
 
tigerseye said:
Maybe i should get a job running the apa leagues cause it looks like they are gettin some good pay=)
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For a new area it is actually very inexpensive. You could make your money back in one year with just 20 teams. The larger the area the more expensive, but you would have a higher likelihood of recruiting enough teams to make money. A small county could be purchased for less than $20000.
 
I don't know where you got your figures, but there's NO way you could make back your investment (even in a new league area) in one year, with just 20 teams. The franchise cost alone (which is based on county population), would cost a minimum of several thousand dollars (including the software fee). I was an APA League Operator in a rural area (ID/MT), and struggled to put together 20 teams in each of five towns, that were spread out across 90,000 sq. miles. My league was operated by mail, and because of the huge area, my players were lucky to see me personally more than once a month. Even so, my players were happy, had fun, considered it a good bargain, and competed to go to Vegas every year (on my dime). There was also ZERO sandbagging in my leagues.

As Jude, Pooltcher and Andrew have said, the LO provides a service for a fee (my net "profit averaged $5-$7 per team, per week). That's hardly making a killing (I make a LOT more than that doing the job I have now!:D ). The league operators in larger metro areas (such as Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, New Orleans, etc) are making nice incomes. But they either worked very hard to build up their team base (300-400+ teams), or they paid a pretty price to buy into an already established area. I can tell you from experience that established APA leagues frequently are sold for as much as $2000/team. You'd have to work a while to make your money back on an investment like that! Most APA LO's work very hard to please their players. Some are 'bad apples'...like in any organization. IMO, you can't fault APA for what they provide. It's a player's choice to participate or not. Don't like it? Don't play! It's as simple as that... JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

iba7467 said:
For a new area it is actually very inexpensive. You could make your money back in one year with just 20 teams. The larger the area the more expensive, but you would have a higher likelihood of recruiting enough teams to make money. A small county could be purchased for less than $20000.
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Scott,

Let's remember that a lot of these people complaining are the same ones who complain that room owners don't bend over backwards catering to "players" over the common man.

And never even bother to look at the fact that "real players" often don't buy drinks, food, t-shirts, play darts, buy music from the jukebox, etc... In other words, they want special treatment, FOR FREE.

I mean jesus....I spend more than $50 WHEN I TAKE MY FAMILY TO THE MOVIES ONCE. And you people are complaining about getting 60-70 HOURS of camaraderie and team play for $50-$75????? I think I'm gonna be sick.

[/negative rant] Okay.....Happy Russ is back. :D

Russ
 
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That is exactly what I was saying Scott. I received all the information about opening an APA league in my local area. Start-up cost would have been roughly $20,000.

Unless I am misunderstood the cost structure - a possibility as I have not proceeded beyond the initial review as of yet - the APA receives 20% royalties.

At $6 per player per match with 20 teams playing 8 ball only, the LO would receive $27,000 (20 teams, 3 sessions, 15 weeks per session) less royalties $5400 leaving $21,600. Obviously administrative costs as well as a minimum $3000 payout to qualifying Vegas team means not getting investment back in one year, but this could be covered easily if 8 and 9 ball were played.

As I am interested in the franchise, please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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