Let's talk about money.

[Scott Lee]

Okay...you're wrong! Do you think that the league will run itself? You haven't figured ANY operational costs (trophies, Vegas fund, posters, weekly league sheets, data processing, postage, gas, and other misc. costs, like end of session and end of year parties). You have to give back to the players. The ones who don't make it to Vegas want something, even if it is only a few bucks back and/or a party. $3000 will not send a team of 8 players to Vegas from Alabama, for 5-7 days + travel time (unless they are carpooling in a van). My figure to you, for 'net profit' is accurate and honest. You can try to 'cheapskate' your players to make a few extra bucks, but it will hurt you in the long run. Lastly, you better figure on being 'out in the bars' EVERY night for that first year (at least), getting your face out, and making friends to recruit as league players. Is your time worth nothing? Even at 42 weeks a year (and believe me, you'll have a tough time convincing your 20 teams to play in the summer...at least at first), you're in reality, looking at under $10k for working a full time job! Best of luck! I am one of a handfull of LO's who managed to scrounge out a living immediately, from only working the APA (most continue their regular job for at least the first year, if not longer...so now you're working TWO full time jobs!). I went from zero to 60 teams in 6 weeks...and won a national award for it. However, my partner and I busted our asses, and covered a zillion miles and hours spent, to do it! If I were you, I'd go TALK in person, to several other APA LO's in rural league areas similar to yours (there are a few right there in AL and MS), before I made any decision to spend $20K (which personally I think is a ripoff...I paid $4k for my areas, but that was 15 yrs ago!).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

That is exactly what I was saying Scott. I received all the information about opening an APA league in my local area. Start-up cost would have been roughly $20,000.

Unless I am misunderstood the cost structure - a possibility as I have not proceeded beyond the initial review as of yet - the APA receives 20% royalties.

At $6 per player per match with 20 teams playing 8 ball only, the LO would receive $27,000 (20 teams, 3 sessions, 15 weeks per session) less royalties $5400 leaving $21,600. Obviously administrative costs as well as a minimum $3000 payout to qualifying Vegas team means not getting investment back in one year, but this could be covered easily if 8 and 9 ball were played.

As I am interested in the franchise, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Gregg]

It's none of your business what that APA earns in annual revenue.

It's like a line worker complaining about what the owner makes. Who has time to listen to that?

 

[worldison2]

It's none of your business what that APA earns in annual revenue.

This says it all! If you don't like the price of the product, don't buy it! It's called capitalism.
I'm a NY Giants season ticketholder. I pay $85 a game each for 2 seats. For 10 games that's $1700. Do you know why I do that? Because I like to watch football games in the stadium. (That's me in the avatar in Giants Stadium).
Do you know what the Giants would do if I asked them for an accounting of how they spend the money? They would laugh in my general direction.

We all make choices on how to spend our entertainment dollar. I find pool in general to be just about the best value for the dollar compared to just about every other sport. (Except maybe jogging, but you never see a jogger with a smile on his face)

 

[macguy]

Maybe i should get a job running the apa leagues cause it looks like they are gettin some good pay=)

The Miami Herald once did a thing on pool leagues and the ones they interviewed claimed to be making from $75,000 to $125,000 a year running leagues.

 

[Drew]

I think my original intent with this thread has been lost.

It seems to me that everybody on this forum is concerned with the state of pool. There's not enough money. There aren't any sponsors. There's no professional pool. I only wanted to point out the fact that pool is a multi-million dollar industry. Frankly, I don't care how much the APA, BCA, TAP, and VNEA leagues make. But I do care about our professional players. I care that the best players in the country are stuck below the poverty line. I care that the best players have to gamble to make a living.

There are solutions. There is money. There are even governing bodies. Why won't they help?

 

[Bigjohn]

The American Poolplayers Association claims 250,000 members. Each member pays $25 in yearly dues. That comes out to $6.25 million. Each member also pays $5 for each weekly event. Assuming each player participates in 10 weekly events a year, each member will contribute $50 per year. That's $12.5 million. Along with the yearly dues, the APA generates $18.75 million per year.

At the APA national teams event, the APA pays out an estimated $600,000. At the APA national singles event, the APA pays out an estimated $300,000. So the players pay $18.75 million, and the APA pays $900,000 back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but $17.65 million is missing.

Edit: It's 17.85 not 17.65. Mental math has never been my thing.

Sounds like a huge misappropriation of funds. This should be checked into. No Doubt.

 

[Fatboy]

i dont count other peoples $$$$, it dosent matter to me, i have no problem with other people making $$$.

and who works for free? i dont.

 

[TheBook]

But my APA membership pays for itself and then some. I pay $20 a year plus $7 a week, to play 7 or 8 hours of free pool on 9' tables every Thursday night. Over the course of the year, that $20 works out to about $0.40 a week, so I pay $7.40 every Thursday to play pool until I can't see straight. I don't care if the APA makes a huge profit, I'm still coming out ahead.

-Andrew

How do you get to play "free" pool for 7 to 8 hours or until you can't see straight?

All I ever get is about 1 game or so during the 1/2 hour warm up period and then whatever time it takes to play the match.

Thanks

 

[Russ Chewning]

How do you get to play "free" pool for 7 to 8 hours or until you can't see straight?

All I ever get is about 1 game or so during the 1/2 hour warm up period and then whatever time it takes to play the match.

Thanks

Not all room owners are so greedy with table time. There are many room owners who will give any open tables to league players, as league players are a great boon to their business.

But, if your room/bar owner is not doing so, then perhaps it is not a great deal for you, and golf would be a less expensive hobby.

Russ

 

[APA LO]

I think my original intent with this thread has been lost.

It seems to me that everybody on this forum is concerned with the state of pool. There's not enough money. There aren't any sponsors. There's no professional pool. I only wanted to point out the fact that pool is a multi-million dollar industry. Frankly, I don't care how much the APA, BCA, TAP, and VNEA leagues make. But I do care about our professional players. I care that the best players in the country are stuck below the poverty line. I care that the best players have to gamble to make a living.

There are solutions. There is money. There are even governing bodies. Why won't they help?

I love threads like these. If I understand you correctly, you're upset with APA because there isn't a decent men's pro tour?

First off, I'm not sure what a professional tour has to do with an amateur pool league, but I'll respectfully attempt to give you my opinion on the matter.

The APA is very active in sponsoring the WPBA women's pro billiard tour. It's been a long and lasting relationship and it's been a great relationship. I have attended many WPBA functions over the years and the ladies understand the importance of sponsorship. They understand where their bread is buttered. On and off the greens, they represent nothing but the utmost class. They have elevated billiards to a whole new level.

The men's circuit? Not so much. The APA was founded by two long time touring professional billiard players, Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart. Why do they support the women's tour and not a men's tour? Probably because the men can't get their act together. I'd like nothing more than to see a men's tour that was at one point sponsored by APA and many other big sponsors. But, when you have a couple of guys behaving like 3 year olds, a few more disrespecting the sponsors and a couple others openly gambling and causing other kinds of mischief, it's hard to justify doing them any favors.

The men's pro tour used to have Camel as a sponsor. Camel eventually had to go away due to tobacco/advertising legislation, but Camel was dropping the men's tour anyway. I went to Vegas when Camel and APA Nationals were doing side by side events. I was in an elevator with 2 high ranking Camel representatives and 3 pro players. The pro players didn't know who they were in the elevator with, but they were all proudly displaying their non RJ Reynolds tobacco products for the sponsors to see. Use an empty Camel pack to put your Marlboro's in. Switch to Camel just for the event, I don't care. Just don't slap your sponsor in the face right in front of their face. I still smoke Camel's to this day because of Camel's sponsorship with APA. I switched from Marlboro. When we had Bud Light as a sponsor, that's what I drank. It's such a small sacrifice to make for such an impactful relationship.

Camel wasn't just a sponsor of that tour, either. They were supporting that tour. Now, I'm not saying all of the pro players behaved negatively. But, it only takes a few to spoil the whole bunch. One of the pool players I admire the most (excluding Alison Fisher, who defines class) is Johnny Archer. He has always been the very definition of class. There aren't enough out there like him, unfortunately. Many walk around with the attitude that everyone owes them something. Until they start behaving in a manner that would attract big time sponsors, I'm afraid nothing's going to change.

I'd also like to express my gratitude to Scott Lee, Jude and a few other posters in this thread that acknowledged that APA is a business. Unless you have been in business and recognize all the expenses involved in running a business, it's probably not a good idea to attempt to create your own formula to determine how much you think APA is making.

I could sit here and poke so many holes in your formula that it would make your head spin. Right off the bat, I'd point out that a very large percentage of that annual membership pays a $10 renewal fee rather than the full $20 annual membership. Anyone who joined APA after August 15th of the previous year is entitled to a prorated membership fee the following year. So, just in membership fees collected alone, you're already way off course.

There are over 250 APA LO's across North America. Each pays back a portion of the fees collected to their local membership in the form of awards like trophies, Vegas trips and prize money. I can assure you that when you combine all of those APA leagues together and the amount that is returned to the APA membership, you are talking millions upon millions of dollars being paid back on the local level.

As others have stated, APA is a business. If you don't make money, you don't stay in business. So, it doesn't make a lot of sense to get upset with someone for trying to make a living running a business. The beauty of this business (at least in the eyes of the consumer) is that you can get a return on your investment. I have NEVER been given a trophy or a cash prize after paying to see a movie in a movie theater. Instead, they want me to pay $20.00 for a stale bucket of popcorn and watered down soda. What do I get for frequenting the same restaraunt? Nothing. Pool leagues do reward teams for your $6.00 weekly investment. That's pretty cool.

APA is not pocketing as much cash as you imply, and it's not even close. If you want to get into an industry that makes that kind of money, try Exxon or Mobil. They're sticking it to us all. Why? Because they can.

I've had a few of my own APA league members attempt to figure out how much I earn for a living. It's usually a very poor attempt, because they really don't know everything involved with running a business. I usually shut them up pretty quickly when I tell them that my postage bill last month alone was more than $1000.00.

APA is a great business to be in. I won't lie. You can make a decent living running pool leagues, but it's very hard work. And sometimes this job can be one big pain in my ass. Especially when I have some junior entrepreneur, such as yourself, attempting to determine whether I make too much money using very fuzzy math. But, those are few and far between, really. Most of the league members enjoy the league and respect the hard work and effort we put into running the league they enjoy.

Now, I'm not opposed to seeing a relationship someday between the men's tour and APA. But, at this juncture all I would see is APA throwing money at a lost cause, and that's a horrible investment. A sponsor doesn't throw money at lost causes. They expect to see a return on their investment. I'm also sorry to see a whole generation of great pool players never get the chance to actually make a decent living doing what they do best. But, something has to change for the better before big sponsors start knocking on their door.

Now that I've said that, I'd like to add that this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinions of the APA National Office.

 

[OnePocketChamp]

May not be the opinion of the National Office but from one LO to another you are right on, and thanks for your insight. I say to anyone that is interested in becoming a APA LO----it's a good gig, but be ready to spend a substantial amount of time running it and making it grow. Don't be fooled into thinking it is easy because good LO's work very hard to become successfull.

 

[uwate]

Without reading the bulk of the posts in this thread, I can immediately say that the first post is wayyyyyy off on their math. Your not taking into account alot of costs, and for every cost that you can even think of, I would bet the farm that there are at least double that in true expenses.

One thing I learned in business right away was that things are usually twice as hard and take 3 times as long to accomplish than you plan, and thats when you are an insider and know your business. When you are totally without experience and have no real idea what it takes to truly run a specific type of business, trying to guesstimate how much money a business makes is like trying to match up a ball banger with a road player. Your gonna be way off the mark and likely go bust.

 

[APA LO]

and for every cost that you can even think of, I would bet the farm that there are at least double that in true expenses.

Exactly. Heck, Uncle Sam takes nearly half by himself.

 

[Andrew Manning]

How do you get to play "free" pool for 7 to 8 hours or until you can't see straight?

All I ever get is about 1 game or so during the 1/2 hour warm up period and then whatever time it takes to play the match.

Thanks

Well, I think that's pretty much because the pool room I play in is nice to the APA league. They give us enough tables for each pair of teams to have a table to play their 5 matches on, plus 3 extras. All these tables are free from 6:00 until 2:00. I get there at 6:00 or before, warm up from 6:00 until 7:00 when the matches start, and then put my name on the list for the three practice tables. They run just like a challenge table, but with no money. I can usually stay on those for quite a few racks in a row, and if I lose, it's just long enough to sit down and enjoy a beer before my name's up again. Then at some point I play my match, pay my $7, and as the matches start to wind down and the tables become available again, I start playing again. Usually I'll end up shooting with one of the better players in the league until at least 1:00 or 1:30, at which point I just about can't see straight. Then I pay my beer tab, which is never more than 3 or 4 beers, and I've gotten 7 hours of pool for $7, and a few beers for a reasonable price.

-Andrew