Light vs heavy cue

[Patrick Johnson]

sure good points but does anyone really have a perfectly straight stroke?

I think those with pendulum strokes are the most likely to. That's what it's for.

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

I heard trump trying to convince the public that poor people who cross into the US from other countries looking for a better life for themselves, are violent and then used one or two specific examples to try to make his point and cause paranoia about the border issues..

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but what the hell are you on about? What on earth does this have to do with a light vs. heavy cue? Did you accidentally post in the wrong forum? I'm genuinely confused

 

[dquarasr]

thats intridusing

“thats intridusing” ?!???

Please stop “intridusing” politics where it is not relevant and likely not wanted. Poor choice to use as an example.

(And for the record, I am solidly blue. I just don’t want to read about politics while reading a post about cue weights.)

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So all you have to do is set up with the tip near the CB and the forearm perpendicular to your stick, and it’s automatic.

pj
chgo

I don't understand your point. What are you trying to say?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Use caution when thinking of a cue stroke like a plumb bob. The cue ball is struck near the bottom of the pendulum, and a good stroke has a straight-line motion, even if slight, through impact.

So all you have to do is set up with the tip near the CB and the forearm perpendicular to your stick, and it’s automatic.

I don't understand your point. What are you trying to say?

I'm saying that a pendulum stroke delivers the tip to the same "setup" point on a straight, horizontal path every time because the controlled pendulum motion with fixed elbow repeats accurately with no "guidance".

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm saying that a pendulum stroke delivers the tip to the same "setup" point on a straight, horizontal path every time because the controlled pendulum motion with fixed elbow repeats accurately with no "guidance".

pj
chgo

As I recall you even made a drawing of the path of the tip and it was nearly straight for several inches as it passed through the cue ball. The length of the nearly straight path was quite remarkable.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I'm saying that a pendulum stroke delivers the tip to the same "setup" point on a straight, horizontal path every time because the controlled pendulum motion with fixed elbow repeats accurately with no "guidance".

pj
chgo

I understand, however, it remains a challenging stroke movement for most people to achieve. I'm unsurprised that most pool pros use a piston or J-stroke instead.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As I recall you even made a drawing of the path of the tip and it was nearly straight for several inches as it passed through the cue ball. The length of the nearly straight path was quite remarkable.

Yes, the tip's path through the CB is actually about 4 times straighter (max height variation = 1/32") than the corresponding "arc chord" shown at the bottom of the stroke (max height variation = 1/8"), and it only gets that big at the ends of the arc, while tip/CB contact is made in the center of the arc, where there's just about no variation.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[A pendulum stroke] remains a challenging stroke movement for most people to achieve.

You think a stroke with one moving part (the forearm) hinging on an unmoving elbow, is more challenging than those with moving elbows and upper arms?

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You think a stroke with one moving part (the forearm) hinging on an unmoving elbow, is more challenging than those with moving elbows and upper arms?

pj
chgo

1) Notice how many pool professionals don't use a pure pendulum.

2) Recognize the involvement of muscles beyond the forearm which complicates the pendulum stroke.

Also, many players struggle with maintaining body rigidity when trying to move just the forearm or the entire arm. Yet pros will commit to a stroke direction by using slight body movement, too, which makes for less than a pure pendulum stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

1) Notice how many pool professionals don't use a pure pendulum.

Typical appeal to authority - not a substitute for a substantive argument.

2) Recognize the involvement of muscles beyond the forearm which complicates the pendulum stroke.

Which muscles? How/why are they "involved"?

Also, many players struggle with maintaining body rigidity when trying to move just the forearm or the entire arm.

Stillness does not mean "body rigidity" - that's your loaded phrase.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

1) Notice how many pool professionals don't use a pure pendulum.

Typical appeal to authority - not a substitute for a substantive argument.
pj
chgo

@Patrick Johnson
i dont think you should be so dissmissive to @BilliardsAbout on this point
i think you would agree the number of non pure pendulum strokers among the pros is far greater in number than the pure pendulum strokers....there has to be a reason for that
even tho i do not know the answer
and even tho in theory the pendulum stroke should be the easiest to learn and should be very accurate and reliable
i also think that pros find ways to do things in a way that will produce excellent results so there must be a reason even if i cant tell you why so many players do not use a pendulum stroke
i would even say with no proof that probably most of them were first taught to use a pendulum stroke and then so many seem to evolve into the J stroke or piston

 

[David in FL]

That makes sense Bob

Here's a similar situation
with old clocks.

there are two ways of winding them, one is by lifting a weight on a chain. the other is to wind a spring.

The clock that is run by a weight runs at a constant and consistent speed. the one wound by a spring runs faster when fully wound and then slower as the spring unwinds.

if you set and check and adjust both clocks, they can run quite accurately but it is important that the spring wound one is wound checked and adjusted on a consistent time basis , once a week , once a day etc.

even when you get the spring wound clock set absolutely perfectly , if it were wound too often, it would run faster than the weight driven clock.

the speed of the chain operated clock is linear, the other is working on a variable speed , although slight.

in the same way a balance beam scale is linear. a scale that opposes a spring encounters a different amount of tension depending upon the weight placed upon it. it opposes the spring instead of a weight, so the tighter the spring is wound, the more tension it has. Its not linear.. You can paint the face to attempt to compensate for it's non linear action

Interestingly, with spring wound clocks, as they wind down, they will slightly speed up as the slightly weaker spring exerts less force on the operating parts, which results in slightly less interval between "ticks"...

Counterintuitive, I know...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the number of non pure pendulum strokers among the pros is far greater in number than the pure pendulum strokers...

Evidence?

.there has to be a reason for that

It doesn't have to be "because it works best" or even "because the pro chose it". We've seen plenty of examples of pros who don't know why they do what they do (or even what they do). They spend their time playing, not studying.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

Evidence?

be real patrick
i dont have a study
just go watch some matches
and make your own conclusions

It doesn't have to be "because it works best" or even "because the pro chose it". We've seen plenty of examples of pros who don't know why they do what they do (or even what they do). They spend their time playing, not studying.

pj
chgo

its true they may not know why or what
but there should be a reason so many do
i am not talking about the very idiosycratic stroke of some that made it work for them
but there is a pattern of a majority of non pendulum strokers that play at a very high level
@Bob Jewett
your thoughts?

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
@Bob Jewett
your thoughts?

As for a pure pendulum, I think it is fairly common among top pool players for soft shots. (Of course the snooker players primarily use something close to a piston due to chin/chest contact.)

For power shots, I think there are very few top players who do not drop their elbow at least three or four inches. But I think that is after tip-ball contact. I'd call that the J stroke. For me, it hurts to not drop the elbow a little.

At one time Tony Robles did use a perfect piston on power shots. It looked really jarring. I think he has gone to the J stroke for power shots now, but I haven't seen him play in a while.

Players as diverse as Nick Varner and Allison Fisher have the Perfect Pendulum/J-stroke dichotomy.

An interesting question is whether players have a sharp dividing line (versus power) as to which stroke they use or do they gradually change from one to the other across a range of intermediate speeds.

 

[bbb]

As for a pure pendulum, I think it is fairly common among top pool players for soft shots. (Of course the snooker players primarily use something close to a piston due to chin/chest contact.)

For power shots, I think there are very few top players who do not drop their elbow at least three or four inches. But I think that is after tip-ball contact. I'd call that the J stroke. For me, it hurts to not drop the elbow a little.

At one time Tony Robles did use a perfect piston on power shots. It looked really jarring. I think he has gone to the J stroke for power shots now, but I haven't seen him play in a while.

Players as diverse as Nick Varner and Allison Fisher have the Perfect Pendulum/J-stroke dichotomy.

An interesting question is whether players have a sharp dividing line (versus power) as to which stroke they use or do they gradually change from one to the other across a range of intermediate speeds.

thanks alot bob for the reply.....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For power shots, I think there are very few top players who do not drop their elbow at least three or four inches. But I think that is after tip-ball contact. I'd call that the J stroke.

That might be what I'd call it too - but I'd classify a stroke with the elbow fixed until after contact a pendulum stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...there is a pattern of a majority of non pendulum strokers that play at a very high level

You may be thinking of the "J" stroke Bob describes - and which I believe is a pendulum stroke because the elbow doesn't move until after contact.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

That might be what I'd call it too - but I'd classify a stroke with the elbow fixed until after contact a pendulum stroke.

pj
chgo

Well, yes, but.... If you say "pendulum" some will think the elbow absolutely does not move even a scintilla. Not a nanometer. If you use the term "J stroke", which describes the path of the grip hand, it will be more likely to get them to understand what you are trying to say.