Light vs heavy cue
- Thread starter fish2
- Start date
My reasoning is based on statistical analysis, not an appeal to authority. If non-pendulum strokes were suboptimal, it would be statistically improbable for so many top players to adopt them and still dominate. To challenge this, you'd need to explain how numerous (most, nearly all!) professionals consistently overcome your suggested inefficiencies.
Now, the prevalence of the pendulum stroke among pros for softer shots, suggests it is highly effective for those shots only, in other words, I agree with Bob's recent post.
You seem uninformed about the impact of musculature, so post a video demonstrating a pendulum stroke with visible arm mechanics for analysis. Put differently, wear short sleeves, and show us how you make pure pendulum strokes with say, 11" backstroke length, while your bicep, to name one muscle, shows no motion! It takes muscle effort and stroke will to make quality pendulum strokes.
Claiming that pros spend more time playing than studying is inaccurate. In fact, if you speak with professionals, you'll find the opposite.
Take CJ Wiley, for example—an advocate of knowledge-based training. In his hundreds of videos, it's hard to find one where he doesn't credit a fellow pro or teacher for a technique he now uses. Instead of dismissing the value of learning, he demonstrates how critical studying is to mastering the game and continuing to learn new things constantly.
CJ Wiley, the guy who promotes “touch of inside” because it “doubles the margin for aiming error”, is your evidence that pros know what they’re talking about?
lol
pj
chgo
I'm uninformed, but you think the biceps (not "bicep") isn't used with a proper pendulum stroke?
pj <- lol again, I guess
chgo
Well, this thread has certainly wandered off into the weeds.
The muscle in your upper arm that makes the lump when flexed is the biceps or more completely the biceps brachii. That's the singular. The "proper" plural following Latin is bicepses but biceps is an alternate plural in English. "Bicep" is an invalid singular.
The last time this came up, I recall that the biceps has only a minor role in the motion of the pool stroke and there's a different muscle in the upper arm that does most of the work.
I'm having a hard time imagining how the hand is brought forward in a pool stroke without the biceps and its neighbors in the upper arm contracting, even for soft shots.
The muscle in your upper arm that makes the lump when flexed is the biceps or more completely the biceps brachii. That's the singular. The "proper" plural following Latin is bicepses but biceps is an alternate plural in English. "Bicep" is an invalid singular.
The last time this came up, I recall that the biceps has only a minor role in the motion of the pool stroke and there's a different muscle in the upper arm that does most of the work.
I'm having a hard time imagining how the hand is brought forward in a pool stroke without the biceps and its neighbors in the upper arm contracting, even for soft shots.
the biceps brachii is less involved with the pool stroke compared to a curl with the palm up
as in the pool stroke the forearm is in a partially pronated position (the palm is facing inward)
with the palm up during a curl the forearm is supinated
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so the proper question you are asking is
what muscles flex the elbow when the forearm is pronated
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When the elbow is flexed in pronation, the primary muscle involved is the brachialis. This muscle is the main flexor of the elbow and works effectively regardless of the forearm’s position (pronation or supination) because it attaches to the ulna, which does not rotate.
Additionally, the brachioradialis assists in elbow flexion, especially when the forearm is in a mid-pronated position.
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In addition to the brachialis and brachioradialis, the biceps brachii is a major muscle involved in elbow flexion. The biceps brachii is particularly effective when the forearm is in a supinated position (palm facing up) because it attaches to the radius12.
Other muscles that assist in elbow flexion, though to a lesser extent, include:
- Pronator teres
- Flexor carpi radialis
- Extensor carpi radialis longus3
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No, he's my proof that professionals are constantly learning, not just playing as you stated. He frequently references current and past instructors.
The actual point of contention is your disagreement regarding the number of muscles involved in the pendulum stroke (it's not solely the lower arm as you wrote, the biceps are utilized). If you wish to dispute, kindly address what I have actually written.
Here's what you wrote:
You think a stroke with one moving part (the forearm) hinging on an unmoving elbow, is more challenging than those with moving elbows and upper arms?
pj
chgo
Yet the biceps and upper arm are used also in a pendulum stroke.
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I never "contended" anything about muscles being immobile - only the elbow/upper arm.
Read much?
"Biceps" and "upper arm" aren't synonymous. The elbow/upper arm is immobile during the pendulum stroke, even with the biceps moving within it (kinda like your torso doesn't move even though your heart is beating).
Have you actually met a pendulum stroke?
pj
chgo
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snookered_again
Well-known member
any good videos showing the difference between the different types of strokes you guys describe?
what are you personally trying to improve?
I'm trying to stop bumping myself at the end of my stroke so I need to improve and stop doing that, , that's an obvious fk up.. every time I feel I've done that , its a miss. I probably just have my cue too close to my body. so I think its a lot about my initial stance.
what are you personally trying to improve?
I'm trying to stop bumping myself at the end of my stroke so I need to improve and stop doing that, , that's an obvious fk up.. every time I feel I've done that , its a miss. I probably just have my cue too close to my body. so I think its a lot about my initial stance.
No video needed to show a pendulum stroke - simply line up with the tip at the intended CB contact point and the forearm perpendicular to the stick and then move only your forearm to stroke the shot (no elbow/upper arm movement).
A pendulum stroke, as described above, is used to eliminate unnecessary arm movement so the cue tip hits the CB on the correct spot (where you addressed the CB) and moving parallel with your stick ("horizontally").
pj
chgo
snookered_again
Well-known member
I play snooker and dont see how I can shoot without bending my elbow, usually I'm down not to my chin but lower than in 8 ball, 9 ball etc.
i know one guy that will make a few warm up strokes in a sort of pendulum motion before he shoots. its a bit like\how you shake a pencil and make it look like its made of rubber. his cue isn't following a straight path at all.
I do not understand how its beneficial but maybe there is a reason or just bad habit. He is fairly accurate.
improving my accuracy is obliviously beneficial. being able to plant the CB where I want,
often to hook,
I'm getting better at using bottom to make the CB move to either side and control its direction, pretty much traveling sideways, still having some issues with draw. I think I have a tendency to shoot harder to get more draw and sometimes it looks more like a stopshot , or less draw than intended.
another common shot Ive been working at it the OB on the other end of table maybe a foot from rail trying to hit it with slow follow and then bank the CB so it stops up against another ball thus hooking the opponent. basically not worring much about there the OB even goes but if I can park behind and stick to some other ball its a great hook...
I'm lucky to play with a lot who are much more experienced so a lot of what I do , to win, is to not be too overly aggressive and play more safeties, often the player I'm paired with is better at it than I am and that's a privilege for me, some will discuss things like stoke techniques but usually its more about just shooting and getting better..
I can learn a lot if I can learn HOW to watch others strokes better, let's see what they do that makes them so good. mainly its hard to see because the answer is experience. but so much is about the stroke being just right. when I shoot and instantly know its a miss, that's a fault in my lineup and stroke. If I can see less of that, it means I'm improving.
i know one guy that will make a few warm up strokes in a sort of pendulum motion before he shoots. its a bit like\how you shake a pencil and make it look like its made of rubber. his cue isn't following a straight path at all.
I do not understand how its beneficial but maybe there is a reason or just bad habit. He is fairly accurate.
improving my accuracy is obliviously beneficial. being able to plant the CB where I want,
often to hook,
I'm getting better at using bottom to make the CB move to either side and control its direction, pretty much traveling sideways, still having some issues with draw. I think I have a tendency to shoot harder to get more draw and sometimes it looks more like a stopshot , or less draw than intended.
another common shot Ive been working at it the OB on the other end of table maybe a foot from rail trying to hit it with slow follow and then bank the CB so it stops up against another ball thus hooking the opponent. basically not worring much about there the OB even goes but if I can park behind and stick to some other ball its a great hook...
I'm lucky to play with a lot who are much more experienced so a lot of what I do , to win, is to not be too overly aggressive and play more safeties, often the player I'm paired with is better at it than I am and that's a privilege for me, some will discuss things like stoke techniques but usually its more about just shooting and getting better..
I can learn a lot if I can learn HOW to watch others strokes better, let's see what they do that makes them so good. mainly its hard to see because the answer is experience. but so much is about the stroke being just right. when I shoot and instantly know its a miss, that's a fault in my lineup and stroke. If I can see less of that, it means I'm improving.
Do you mean without raising or dropping your elbow? That's the purpose of the pendulum stroke.
The advantage of not moving your elbow is that the cue tip returns to the same spot as at address and travels in a nearly straight (horizontal) line for a few inches before and after contact.
pj
chgo