Long Draw Shot

[DoomCue]

One problem with harder-hit shots is that the shot stroke is so much faster than the warmup strokes. You line up very carefully while stroking relatively slowly, but then change everything by stroking faster on the actual shot. Try matching the speed of your warmup strokes as much as possible to the way you'll stroke the actual shot. You'll have to be more careful not to accidentally bump the cue ball during your warmup strokes, but the alignment of your stroke with the shot won't change as much when you pull the trigger.

pj
chgo

P.S. I don't mean more strokes per minute; I mean more speed in the forward part of your strokes, as if you're hitting the cue ball harder.

Frankly PJ, I'm surprised at this advice coming from a long-time RSB poster. Trying to speed up the stroke at address to match actual stroke speed is a bad idea. Keep in mind that the address stroke can't possibly be the same as the actual stroke - the CB is in the way. Even if a player *thinks* he's addressing the CB at the same speed as the actual stroke on a power draw, he's probably not (although there's something to be said for "if you *think* it helps, maybe it does"). During address, the shooter will have to make conscious effort to STOP the cue from contacting the CB. Since natural deceleration can't occur, the shooter has to stop his arm. I don't know about you, but when I don't allow a natural finish, my tip is almost never on its intended line.

The purpose of a warm-up stroke is not to simulate the shot - it's to verify alignment and cue tip to CB placement.

-djb <-- has yet to see a golfer address a tee shot at full speed....

 

[VIProfessor]

some of the best players and instructors that there are would disagree with that.

however, most agree its whatever is best for you. and most agree that if you align properly, aim properly, and stroke properly you can be watching the blonde in the 4th row and the shot will be successful.

DCP

While there are top players and instructors who advocate looking at the cueball last, you can be sure that they are a small minority. Humans are very visually oriented people, and it is natural to align your body, in some fashion or other, to what you are looking at. When we're driving on the highway, for example, if we keep our eyes on a distant point on the road, staying in line becomes automatic. If we focus on a point just in front of our car, however, it will soon become a struggle to maintain a straight line. In this case, looking intently at a specific point on the objectball on the final backswing and forward stroke helps to ensure that the body stays in alignment with that point.

Looking at the object ball last can also help you to stay relaxed through the stroke and to stay down on the shot. Often, a player tenses his muscles in anticipation of contact with the cueball, causing a poor stroke. Focusing on the object ball takes attention away from the cueball, thus helping you to swing through it as if it wasn't there. To put it another way, if the way to stroke is to go straight through the cueball as if it wasn't there, why focus on the ball during your stroke? Lastly, if you focus on the object ball during your stroke and all the way to its finish, if you stay down until you see the collisioin between the spheres, you will help to eliminate jumping up, and you will find yourself executing those draw shots.

 

[DoomCue]

some of the best players and instructors that there are would disagree with that.

however, most agree its whatever is best for you. and most agree that if you align properly, aim properly, and stroke properly you can be watching the blonde in the 4th row and the shot will be successful.

DCP

I think every instructor would disagree with that. However, people are talking about shots requiring a standard operating procedure (read: normal shots). Shots where cue tip to CB contact is more important than CB to OB contact (like jump shots, being jacked up, etc.) require the shooter to change focus to the CB.

I can't think of a single pro who plays ALWAYS looking at the CB last, and I've seen most them. There must be something to that - they can't all be wrong.

I know Colin advocates always looking at the CB last, and there's a pretty good local player here who always looks at the CB last. For the most part, I don't think players who look at the CB last are destined for greatness, and very few advance past banger status.

You may think you play at a certain level because you look at the CB last on every shot, and I'd agree. Take that however you like.

-djb

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

I think every instructor would disagree with that.

let me explain/clarify,

yes, i would say the majority of instructors would want a player to focus on the object ball last. when i said "Some" i guess i needed to be more clear. the "Some" is probably in the minority.

when i go home tonight i am going to shoot some shots and focus on the object ball last. i want to see how i do with that method. i have tried it a few times over the years, and found that looking at the cueball last is best for me. and yes, i realize that puts me in the minority. but i am even worse than normal when focusing on the object ball.

however, and perhaps its that "Spockian Logic" of mine, i do have to agree with the point that Tom Rossman drove home to me regarding this issue. that being, once again, "IF YOU HAVE BURNING FOCUS, AND ARE ALIGNED PROPERLY, YOU ARE AIMING RIGHT, AND YOU STROKE STRAIGHT, YOU WILL ACHIEVE SHOT SUCCESS EVEN IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE BLONDE ON THE 4TH ROW THE MOMENT YOU SHOOT......."

DCP

 

[jay helfert]

In the words of the inimitable Steve Mizerak, when asked how he got so good at Pool. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

A very good drill is to shoot a series of long straight in shots (object ball halfway to the pocket). Hit them all very hard, twice as hard as your normal stroke. Try to make them, but don't be disheartened if you miss most of them. After about 15-20 minutes of frustration, back off to your normal stroke, and continue shooting the same shots. You will be amazed.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

In the words of the inimitable Steve Mizerak, when asked how he got so good at Pool. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

A very good drill is to shoot a series of long straight in shots (object ball halfway to the pocket). Hit them all very hard, twice as hard as your normal stroke. Try to make them, but don't be disheartened if you miss most of them. After about 15-20 minutes of frustration, back off to your normal stroke, and continue shooting the same shots. You will be amazed.

this sounds like a pretty good idea, think i will give it a try tonight...........

thanks Mr. Helfert!

DCP

 

[Andrew Manning]

"IF YOU HAVE BURNING FOCUS, AND ARE ALIGNED PROPERLY, YOU ARE AIMING RIGHT, AND YOU STROKE STRAIGHT, YOU WILL ACHIEVE SHOT SUCCESS EVEN IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE BLONDE ON THE 4TH ROW THE MOMENT YOU SHOOT......."

And on the other 99% of shots where something in your alignment/aim is a single millimeter off and you'd normally subconsciously correct it easily based on visual feedback, you're going to need your eyes doing the right thing in order to make that tiny correction correctly. You can make a lot of shots without correcting that single-millimeter fudge factor that's almost always there, even if only in your bridge placement, but you'll make a lot more if your visual feedback allows your subconscious to adjust your delivery. Also, you'll make position a lot more, becase often a precise hit on the OB makes more of a difference in the CB's reaction than it does for pocketing the ball, which usually contains a relatively wide margin of error.

The blonde in the 4th row would be adequate for a machine, but looking at the object ball allows us humans to maximize precision.

-Andrew

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

But his point was that it CAN be done, not that it SHOULD be done.

One more 'trick' to this shot. Look at the object ball. Once you know that you are going to hit the cueball where you want to, move your focus to the object ball.

no, i dont think that was his point. he might have changed his opinion since, however. i got the impression whether you look at the cueball or object ball last was a personal preference thing. IIRC, i might still have that session on tape (audio) and i might try and see if i can find it in the near future. i'll report back if successful.

secondly, and perhaps i have a problem with this, dunno. but if i look away from the cueball to focus on the object ball i dont strike the cueball exactly where i want to. i've found that out using the training balls - elephant and rempe.

but again, i like the comments and posts here, its good reading. i am going to try and shoot some shots tonight doing nothing but looking at the object ball and see how i do.

DCP

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[VIProfessor]

If you can't hit the cueball where you have practice stroking to hit it when you look away from it, your fundamentals and or alignement are off.

Absolutely correct!

 

[BRKNRUN]

no, i dont think that was his point. he might have changed his opinion since, however. i got the impression whether you look at the cueball or object ball last was a personal preference thing. IIRC, i might still have that session on tape (audio) and i might try and see if i can find it in the near future. i'll report back if successful.

secondly, and perhaps i have a problem with this, dunno. but if i look away from the cueball to focus on the object ball i dont strike the cueball exactly where i want to. i've found that out using the training balls - elephant and rempe.

but again, i like the comments and posts here, its good reading. i am going to try and shoot some shots tonight doing nothing but looking at the object ball and see how i do.

DCP

I have not seen this mentioned yet, so I will throw it out there cause I have found that it does work...

When you are fully set up for the shot most everyone looks at the OB last....Go a step further and forget about the CB and stroke the shot as if you are going to shoot the contact point on the OB with the tip of your cue...

Obviously you won't follow through all the way to the OB, but what will happen is that your tip will stay on course as it accelerates through the CB (on its way to the OB)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"The purpose of a warm-up stroke is not to simulate the shot - it's to verify alignment and cue tip to CB placement."

No, it's to simulate the stroke (to a degree) to see if you're lining up correctly for the stroke you're going to use. If your shot stroke is very different from your practice strokes, you aren't really seeing your *shot stroke* alignment and cue tip placement - you're seeing your *practice stroke* alignment and cue tip placement. The extra force needed for a long draw shot (except on really new cloth) can change your stroke significantly.

Of course the practice strokes aren't the same speed as the shot stroke, that's why I said "as much as possible". Of course the player has to stop the stick - he has to with slow strokes too. There's no "natural deceleration" either way.

Maybe you're assuming I try to make my practice strokes exactly like my shot stroke, but watching me you might not notice the difference between my faster practice strokes and my normal ones. A lot of the difference is in "visualizing with my muscles" - bringing the muscles for a harder shot into play at least slightly during warmups so I can see the kind of difference if not the extent of it.

This technique definitely helps me get the alignment and tip placement right with more powerful shots.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

In the words of the inimitable Steve Mizerak, when asked how he got so good at Pool. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

A very good drill is to shoot a series of long straight in shots (object ball halfway to the pocket). Hit them all very hard, twice as hard as your normal stroke. Try to make them, but don't be disheartened if you miss most of them. After about 15-20 minutes of frustration, back off to your normal stroke, and continue shooting the same shots. You will be amazed.

Jay,
practiced this some tonight. i think it helped, thanks! yes, i did miss alot of the very hard straight in draw shots. but, when i backed off the speed i drew some of them straight back, a couple even back into the corner pocket.

this might be a good practice/warm up shot for me when i get to square off against Nick Varner..........

DCP

 

[DoomCue]

"The purpose of a warm-up stroke is not to simulate the shot - it's to verify alignment and cue tip to CB placement."

No, it's to simulate the stroke (to a degree) to see if you're lining up correctly for the stroke you're going to use.

That's probably the biggest difference in our thinking - you think of the warm-up stroke as a simulation of the final stroke. It isn't because of the simple fact that it can't be - the CB gets in the way (regardless of the "to a degree" qualifier).

If your shot stroke is very different from your practice strokes, you aren't really seeing your *shot stroke* alignment and cue tip placement - you're seeing your *practice stroke* alignment and cue tip placement.

If you have a good stroke, the "*shot stroke* alignment and cue tip placement" should be exactly the same as the "*practice stroke* alignment and cue tip placement" regardless of warm-up stroke speed. If that's not the case, there's no point in doing a warm-up stroke at all 'cause you're just guessing anyway.

A lot of the difference is in "visualizing with my muscles" - bringing the muscles for a harder shot into play at least slightly during warmups so I can see the kind of difference if not the extent of it.

I think doing the warm-up strokes on a rail or on an area of the table without impeding balls would better suit this purpose. Of course, if you do that, you don't get the benefit of checking alignment and cue tip placement (you know, the real reasons for warm-up strokes ).

I think the bigger issue is that if someone has a hard time maintaining alignment and cue tip placement when he has to hit a harder shot, then he probably has excessive body movement. If body movement is minimized (I refuse to say "one moving part" 'cause that ain't true, either), a change in speed of stroke shouldn't affect alignment and cue tip placement.

This technique definitely helps me get the alignment and tip placement right with more powerful shots.

pj
chgo

Understood, but I still think that if you know you can't match the speed of the warm-up stroke with the actual stroke speed, there's not really much point in utilizing your technique. You can verify alignment and cue tip placement without a faster warm-up stroke and the final stroke speed is probably NEVER the same as the warm-up stroke, so why waste the energy? That being said, if it works for you, it works for you.

-djb <-- welcomes PJ to AZ (meant to say that earlier)

 

[BRKNRUN]

Jay,
practiced this some tonight. i think it helped, thanks! yes, i did miss alot of the very hard straight in draw shots. but, when i backed off the speed i drew some of them straight back, a couple even back into the corner pocket.

this might be a good practice/warm up shot for me when i get to square off against Nick Varner..........

DCP

You don't need to practice to square off against Nick Varner...

I went to a pool room last night to play in a tournament...When I arrived I found out they changed the max rating for the tournament and I was over the max rating....So in essance I was too good to play....(never thought that would happen )

Anyway...Nick Varner happend to be coming in and I was told he would be doing some challenge games...I figured what the heck I am already here...I will hang out and play a couple games against Nick......I played 4...well 1.....well I racked 4.

Game (1) He proceeded to miss a 7 ball in the first game and I made the hanger 3 ball out...

Game (2) - Nick - Break and Run
Game (3) - Nick - Dry Break and leaves me no shot...I play a safe CB behind two balls and the 1-ball partially blocked....He looks at his options for a little while...changed his mind a couple times....and then decided to hit a jump masse shot that pocketed the 1 ball....and then runs out
Game (4) - Nick Break and Run

In short....just practice racking....

 

[jay helfert]

Jay,
practiced this some tonight. i think it helped, thanks! yes, i did miss alot of the very hard straight in draw shots. but, when i backed off the speed i drew some of them straight back, a couple even back into the corner pocket.

this might be a good practice/warm up shot for me when i get to square off against Nick Varner..........

DCP

Nothing will help you if you are going to play Nick.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you think of the warm-up stroke as a simulation of the final stroke

No, I don't - I think of the warmup stroke as a (rough) simulation of how my arm (and whatever else is involved) will work to deliver the final stroke.

-djb <-- welcomes PJ to AZ (meant to say that earlier)

Thanks.

pj
chgo

 

[TATE]

let me explain/clarify,

yes, i would say the majority of instructors would want a player to focus on the object ball last. when i said "Some" i guess i needed to be more clear. the "Some" is probably in the minority.

when i go home tonight i am going to shoot some shots and focus on the object ball last. i want to see how i do with that method. i have tried it a few times over the years, and found that looking at the cueball last is best for me. and yes, i realize that puts me in the minority. but i am even worse than normal when focusing on the object ball.

however, and perhaps its that "Spockian Logic" of mine, i do have to agree with the point that Tom Rossman drove home to me regarding this issue. that being, once again, "IF YOU HAVE BURNING FOCUS, AND ARE ALIGNED PROPERLY, YOU ARE AIMING RIGHT, AND YOU STROKE STRAIGHT, YOU WILL ACHIEVE SHOT SUCCESS EVEN IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE BLONDE ON THE 4TH ROW THE MOMENT YOU SHOOT......."

DCP

I remember in learning golf, how many useless "visualization" tips would be in the magazines week after week, and how they could be misinterpreted. The players who tried to follow the advice were often mechanical, and looked like they were posing or doing the Robot.

I look at the object ball last. I use the cueball as a reference point to aim and make sure I'm set up to make proper contact at the right spot on the cueball, but my mind is aiming at the object ball, and I let my eyes do whatever they do to get the cueball to the right spot.

If I was fixated on the cueball, I don't think I could pocket balls very well, no more than a marksman could hit a target by focusing on the rear sight of a rifle.

Chris