(LONG) How many pool players could survive

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
the scrutiny of snooker.

TWO Scottish snooker players will not face prosecution over an alleged match-fixing plot after the Crown decided there was insufficient evidence.

Stephen Maguire, 30, from Glasgow, and Jamie Burnett, 35, from Hamilton, were questioned by police after bookmakers reported unusual betting patterns in the run-up to the pair’s Maplin UK Championship match on December 15, 2008.

A number of bookmakers suspended betting after large amounts of money were staked on Maguire to win 9-3 in the match, held in Telford, England.

The match ended 9-3 to Maguire after Burnett missed a black at the end of the 12th frame.

After the game, Burnett denied any wrongdoing and said he knew the situation and the pressure had affected his play. Maguire, currently ranked eighth in the world, also denied allegations of foul play.

Strathclyde Police launched an inquiry into the match-fixing allegations and questioned both players in August 2009.

They were released without charge and, following receipt of a report submitted by the force, the Crown Office announced yesterday it had found insufficient evidence to justify a criminal prosecution.

A Crown Office spokeswoman said: “Following a full and comprehensive investigation the case was reported for the consideration of Crown Counsel who, after careful consideration of all facts and circumstances, decided there is insufficient evidence to justify a criminal prosecution.”

However, the pair could still face disciplinary action after the World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association (WPBSA) – the governing body of professional snooker – confirmed it would now launch its own inquiry into the matter.

Jason Ferguson, WPBSA chairman, added: “We are treating this case very seriously. We will now be given access to the evidence connected with the case, and our disciplinary committee will review evidence thoroughly.”

World Snooker chairman Barry Hearn said he welcomed the news there would be no legal action against the players, but questioned why it had taken so long to resolve the matter.

Mr Hearn said: “I’m somewhat surprised this matter has been hanging around since December 2008 and obviously the cloud of suspicion has been cast over the two players concerned, which must have been very difficult for them. It’s a shame it wasn’t resolved much more quickly, and presumably, at less cost to the public purse-strings.

“I found it quite frustrating waiting, and I’m sure both Burnett and Maguire will be relieved to have that cloud of suspicion removed from them.”

He added: “With our disciplinary head on we will review any evidence [the police] have, but clearly [we will review it] in the light it was nearly three years ago and also they have decided there was no action to be taken.

“The case will be reviewed by the WPBSA disciplinary panel. We will maintain our efforts through our integrity unit to ensure snooker remains whiter than white and at this moment in time I’m very pleased for both Maguire and Burnett there is no evidence of any wrongdoing on their behalf which necessitates a prosecution.”

The integrity of the sport has been in the spotlight following a series of incidents in recent years.

Australian player Quinten Hann was banned for eight years after being found guilty of throwing frames in 2006, while four-time world champion John Higgins was suspended last year as World Snooker investigated a newspaper report he had discussed the possibility of fixing frames in return for money.

Higgins was cleared of match-fixing last September but was given a six-month ban – backdated to May 2010 – and fined £75,000 after being found guilty of disrepute for failing to report the approach to fix matches.

South African Peter Francisco was banned for five years in 1995 after an investigation into betting.
from: http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...91?_=1f5a6b8a87cf031adf39f0a0d1105d1e6b50450f

Late snooker great Paul Hunter had his run in with organized snooker.

He was fined £4,550 and docked 1,440 ranking points after testing positive for cannabis during an event in 1997. from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hunter

Snooker great Alex Higgins had some disciplinary problems too:

He also drank and smoked during tournaments, as did many of his contemporaries, helping sponsored tobacco advertising. A volatile personality got him into frequent fights and arguments, both on and off the snooker table. One of the most serious of these clashes was when he head-butted a referee at the UK championship in 1986. This led to his being fined £12,000 and banned from five tournaments. He was convicted of assault and criminal damage, and fined £250 by a court. Another came at the 1990 World Championship; after losing his first-round match to Steve James, he punched tournament official Colin Randle in the abdomen before the start of a press conference at which he announced his retirement. This, added to his having threatened to have fellow player and compatriot Dennis Taylor shot, led to a ban for the whole of the following season.
from: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Alex_Higgins

Players cannot bring the game of snooker into disrepute.

Northern Irishman Allen was heavily critical of the decision to shorten the early rounds of the UK Championship, where he was a first-round victor over Adrian Gunnell on Monday.
Mark Allen - Mark Allen referred to disciplinary committee for comments about World Snooker chairman Barry Hearn
Hot water: Mark Allen could face disciplinary action after hitting out at Barry Hearn

A statement from World Snooker today read: "Following Mark Allen's use of inappropriate language in his press conference at the williamhill.com UK Championship, he has been referred to the World Professional Snooker and Billiards Association (WPBSA)'s disciplinary committee as he is in breach of tournament rules and could be charged with bringing the game into disrepute."

Allen said yesterday: "The players don't really matter, so **** the players.
from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...about-World-Snooker-chairman-Barry-Hearn.html

U.S. pool has a long ways to go. Just think what would of happened to a drunk Alex, the Wyoming "Chopping Crew" or the SBE 14.1 split...in Austrailia.

Australian Billiards & Snooker Council Inc. By Laws
1. IBSF or World Bodies
Player and/or Officials Suspensions or Bans. In line with the ABSC Constitution, and for the overall credibility and integrity of our sport
Australia wide, it is agreed that the ABSC will recognise all serious disciplinary actions against all players and officials that are announced by the IBSF and the OBSF.

These shall include such disciplinary actions as bringing the sport into disrepute, positive drug testing, etc. If the seriousness of the disciplinary action results in a suspension or ban on the player or official, then the same period of suspension or ban will be recognised by the ABSC and its State Affiliates.

and people wonder why pool is on life support.

There probably isn't a person among us that doesn't know or seen a substance abuser in any "pro" pool event. It seems like the few organizations that pool has only CSI has stepped forward and acknowledged and set disciplinary action rules for chopping. I applaud them and thank them. That is one step forward. Hopefully CSI will keep them coming.

Why Barry Hearns would pick Charlie Williams for a captain is beyond me when he states that he wants to keep snooker, "whiter than white". To me, that means no hint of scandal. Apparently he has little regard for pool except a money making vehicle.

Just venting. Thanks for listening.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
Pool is a pastime, snooker is a sport.

Pool will always play second fiddle to snooker until it has one unified organising body, playing one set of entrenched rules.

Pool needs embedding.
 

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
Late snooker great Paul Hunter had his run in with organized snooker.

He was fined £4,550 and docked 1,440 ranking points after testing positive for cannabis during an event in 1997. from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hunter

Try that in pool and you'd have lawyers flying out of the woodwork arguing that players have some kind of "right" to smoke up, 420, and "I need it" whining.

Pool would need a single governing body, and a tour the pros would be a part of before you could enforce any kind of rules. As it is, the more well known you are, the more crap you can get away with.

If you screw up in snooker, there's no living outside of it that still involves the sport. In pool, there's no tour, no organization, no real living except for a tiny few. So if you get kicked out of a tournament for being disruptive you just wait until the next weekend.
 

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try that in pool and you'd have lawyers flying out of the woodwork arguing that players have some kind of "right" to smoke up, 420, and "I need it" whining.

Pool would need a single governing body, and a tour the pros would be a part of before you could enforce any kind of rules. As it is, the more well known you are, the more crap you can get away with.

If you screw up in snooker, there's no living outside of it that still involves the sport. In pool, there's no tour, no organization, no real living except for a tiny few. So if you get kicked out of a tournament for being disruptive you just wait until the next weekend.

Could a player from California or any other medical pot state smoke pot if they had the medical card and still play in an official pro event that is if we ever get such a thing as an official pro event?
 

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
Could a player from California or any other medical pot state smoke pot if they had the medical card and still play in an official pro event that is if we ever get such a thing as an official pro event?

If lawyers can force coffee cups to have a giant "HOT!" placard on them, I'm sure they could find a way to let players snort coke off 12-year-old virgin's asses on live TV. If you're a celebrity (and that's what they'd be if there was a single tour the players weren't allowed to screw up) you can get away with anything.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So the question was: "How many pool players could survive" if some form of a Billiards Congress enforced the rules to the leter and intent of the laws (whatever they might end up being)?

Answer: Those with real integrety would survive!

How many of them are current high ranking Pro Pool Players is a different question entirely.
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
good answer

So the question was: "How many pool players could survive" if some form of a Billiards Congress enforced the rules to the leter and intent of the laws (whatever they might end up being)?

Answer: Those with real integrety would survive!

How many of them are current high ranking Pro Pool Players is a different question entirely.
 

dkleather

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When drug testing was brought into snooker it immediately removed three household names, Bill Werbineuk, Fred Davis and Neal Foulds. All of whom were on PRESCRIBED medication.

Fred Davis was a man in his 70s on water retention tablets.

There IS no escape.

This dramatically increased and improved the perception of snooker on the world stage. As does the gentlemanly way the game is played at the highest level.

Alex Higgins eventually had his career and livelihood taken from him for his behaviour.

The betting scandals have taken the shine off the game for many people.

However the most important thing has been touched on earlier, EVERYONE plays snooker to the same rules. I can play a chinaman with not a word of English and we can play snooker without a problem.

I cannot drive to the next town to play pool.
 

Pangit

Banned
When drug testing was brought into snooker it immediately removed three household names, Bill Werbineuk, Fred Davis and Neal Foulds. All of whom were on PRESCRIBED medication.

Fred Davis was a man in his 70s on water retention tablets.

There IS no escape.

This dramatically increased and improved the perception of snooker on the world stage. As does the gentlemanly way the game is played at the highest level.

Alex Higgins eventually had his career and livelihood taken from him for his behaviour.

The betting scandals have taken the shine off the game for many people.

However the most important thing has been touched on earlier, EVERYONE plays snooker to the same rules. I can play a chinaman with not a word of English and we can play snooker without a problem.

I cannot drive to the next town to play pool.

Exactly. 8-ball is the "poster child" of what are the rules here, anyway???? There are so many different rules for 8-ball, that is basically doesn't have any rules. You don't hear about "house rules" in Snooker.

And it is generally played in Gentlemanly fashion, as has been pointed out. Wear a vest, a tidy place to neatly stow ones chalk while shooting. The table is NOT a place to rest your chalk while you shoot your shot. You won't see any Talc powder on a Snooker table, and 98% of Snooker players seem to get by just fine without a glove.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ghosst...Comparing someone taking legitimate medicine to "finding a way to let players snort coke off 12-year-old virgin's asses on live TV" is at best very poor taste...and at worst, an outright affrontery to legimately ill patients, seeking relief wherever they can find it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If lawyers can force coffee cups to have a giant "HOT!" placard on them, I'm sure they could find a way to let players snort coke off 12-year-old virgin's asses on live TV.
 
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TheThaiger

Banned
When drug testing was brought into snooker it immediately removed three household names, Bill Werbineuk, Fred Davis and Neal Foulds. All of whom were on PRESCRIBED medication.

Fred Davis was a man in his 70s on water retention tablets.

There IS no escape.

This dramatically increased and improved the perception of snooker on the world stage. As does the gentlemanly way the game is played at the highest level.

Alex Higgins eventually had his career and livelihood taken from him for his behaviour.

The betting scandals have taken the shine off the game for many people.

However the most important thing has been touched on earlier, EVERYONE plays snooker to the same rules. I can play a chinaman with not a word of English and we can play snooker without a problem.

I cannot drive to the next town to play pool.

The pub next door plays at least three different types of rule, and only Big Dave REALLY knows them (which he doesn't).

Pool's a farce.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
Exactly. 8-ball is the "poster child" of what are the rules here, anyway???? There are so many different rules for 8-ball, that is basically doesn't have any rules. You don't hear about "house rules" in Snooker.

I organised a charity pool comp last week, and the two finalists refused to play each other because they insisted on playing their own rules, and neither would yield.

Pool's an embarrassment.
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Snooker might have more scrutiny and stricter punishment, but it doesn't seem to stop the game from coming into a new scandal every so often, like the higgins match-fixing thing.

I dunno, everyone has some cure for how to make pool popular again. I don't think putting players in vests and banning a few is the answer. Formal attire works for snooker because it's england. What turns on english audiences won't necessarily do anything for americans. As for scandals, I'm not convinced they cause people to abandon a sport and decrease its popularity, if anything it draws their attention back to it.

Maybe pool is just boring to watch.
Snooker actually looks difficult to the guy in the chair so it's more entertaining.
 

TheThaiger

Banned
Snooker might have more scrutiny and stricter punishment, but it doesn't seem to stop the game from coming into a new scandal every so often, like the higgins match-fixing thing.

I dunno, everyone has some cure for how to make pool popular again. I don't think putting players in vests and banning a few is the answer. Formal attire works for snooker because it's england. What turns on english audiences won't necessarily do anything for americans. As for scandals, I'm not convinced they cause people to abandon a sport and decrease its popularity, if anything it draws their attention back to it.

Maybe pool is just boring to watch.
Snooker actually looks difficult to the guy in the chair so it's more entertaining.

We're the scruffiest nation on earth, so dress has nothing to do with its popularity over here. What snooker has is pure drama - Liang Vs Higgins last night was pure theatre.

It's CRIMINAL there's no drama in pool. It's fun to play, but terrible to watch.
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
All sports

There are scandals in all organized sports to some degree. How it's handled is another story. Wouldn't it be nice if one promoter/organization would enforce the disciplinary actions of another promoter/organization. In other words, if CSI put someone on a 6 month ban, they would be banned from every event for that time period. Would the WPA uphold a CSI action? Would CSI uphold a WPA action? That might be a start for putting some integrity into the game. Might be interesting to do drug testing for performance enhancing drugs for the top 8 of any major tournament. Yep, get your check when the drug test is passed. Interesting and would be noticed. Unlike celebrities where any publicity is good, bad publicity for sports is just that.

Actually, every sport seems to have there own attire/uniform. Pool seems to be a collared shirt, dress pants and dress shoes. While I don't subscribe to that being a cure-all, it's a lot better than watching streams with players in holey jeans, shorts and T-shirts.

Not all pool is boring to watch. The Euro players seem to be quite adept at the short race, alternating break format (Mosconi Cup). I watched a match last night between Eric Durbin and Edwin Montal that had everything that was bad and good about pool in it. BTW, they were playing 8-ball on the Valley bar box. What was very noticed was the difference of etiquette between the American Durbin and the Canadian Montal. Hopefully Big Truck will put it up on his site so everyone can watch.

Snooker might have more scrutiny and stricter punishment, but it doesn't seem to stop the game from coming into a new scandal every so often, like the higgins match-fixing thing.

I dunno, everyone has some cure for how to make pool popular again. I don't think putting players in vests and banning a few is the answer. Formal attire works for snooker because it's england. What turns on english audiences won't necessarily do anything for americans. As for scandals, I'm not convinced they cause people to abandon a sport and decrease its popularity, if anything it draws their attention back to it.

Maybe pool is just boring to watch.
Snooker actually looks difficult to the guy in the chair so it's more entertaining.
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
8-ball, what rules?

...8-ball is the "poster child" of what are the rules here, anyway???? There are so many different rules for 8-ball, that is basically doesn't have any rules. You don't hear about "house rules" in Snooker...

Yes the WPA has done their due diligence by publishing rules for the World to adhere to. For the most part the rest of the world seems to follow them until we get to the league organizations in the United States. I was a bit dismayed when the BCAPL decided to refine some WPA rules for their league. I do wish they would have gone through the WPA for those changes. It has caused confusion for many players. Last night, on a steamed match, after a scratch on the break, the player took BIH anywhere. They were supposedly playing BCA rules. As it turned out, they were playing BCAPL rules. That would really piss me off if I didn't know that. The BCA (Billiard Congress of America) rules are the WPA rules. The BCAPL (BCA Players League) are based on the WPA rules but do have changes in them, such as BIH anywhere after the break (8-ball) and a few others. Understand, I'm not saying that the BCAPL rule changes are bad changes, in fact, they make sense. I am saying that they have added to the general confusion about what rules they are playing under. BTW, the ACS leagues do play under the WPA rules.

I wish all the league organizations would just adhere to the WPA rules and let it be. Rules don't change the essence of the game, just the strategy used to win the game. If APA and Valley would all use the WPA rules it would be a huge help in the standardization of rules everywhere. They can keep there formats and things that make them "special". I don't believe their rules make them special.
 
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