Look what one of our fellow Az'rs did

My thought on this is that BPG didn't bring his concerns to the community first before contacting paypal. He could have posted a thread with his concerns and then taken it to paypal.

PayPal has no obligation to verify the legality of raffles. They are a payment gateway only. Of course they can shut down the ACCOUNT of any person who they find to be running a scam but they are not going to do anything to shut down any system where there is clearly income with a tiny fraction of complaints from disgruntled customers.

AZ Billiards has no obligation to check that the person holding each raffle is doing so according to the laws of their state. And those state laws are what governs the raffles.

There MIGHT be something to holding a raffle via the internet which essentially facilitates interstate commerce. However the fact that AZ has made a separate raffle section in no way shows that they condone any raffles that are held illegally. The legality and fairness of any particular raffle falls to the person or organization holding it. AZ merely provides a place for people to hold their raffles without themselves being the arbiters of whether the raffles are legal or not. Same as a classified ad on Craigslist. Or when someone offers a cue for sale it's not incumbent on AZ to find out if the seller actually is authorized to sell the cue. These questions have been answered many times in the court system in regards to classified and other forms of advertising. The person responsible for the legality of their offer is the person placing the ad - not the vehicle for placing it.

I personally don't like the raffles but it's mainly because I don't like the hassle they represent in terms of logistics with all the micropayments and such. I feel that legal or not, as long as they are run according to the Powerball numbers then there is virtually no way to fix them as long as the exact date that the number will be picked is made known beforehand.

If I ran a raffle then I would say that two days after ALL entries are confirmed PAID on the raffle thread is when the number would picked. It's very very important to pick a date far enough in the future to avoid any and all suspicion.

BPG if you really think that the raffles held here are illegal then are you prepared to pay a fine for participating in illegal activity? Will you turn yourself in to the local police and demand that they arrest you for illegal gambling?

My thoughts are that once PayPal investigates this they will dismiss it as a frivolous claim. Hopefully.

Pimp, you should have been more careful in how you ran the raffle. Technically you should have posted a DATE in which you would use the powerball numbers.

BPG - the guy made a small mistake with ZERO adverse consequences to the outcome of the raffle. The way you are handling this is WAY OUT OF PROPORTION in my opinion.
 
The only way to "fix" the raffles however is for the raffle holder to buy up most of the tickets and gamble on "winning" the item himself. Thus he gets to keep the item and the money from those who didn't win.

For example if I buy a cue for $100 that has a retail price of $200 and I sell 20 tickets at $10 a pop. I "buy" 10 tickets myself and sell the other 10. Thus I automatically am EVEN for the cost of the cue and I have a 50% chance to keep the cue and the money.

So If I win then I do it again and even I don't win the second time I have made a profit and only delivered ONE CUE.

You can see how easily this type of situation could go. The seller can never do worse that even and odds are that he will win many times thus making lots of money off the same item.

I have posted this before. The drawback to this is that it requires a lot of work to not have it show up as a scam. Lot's of multiple user ids, lots of work to not have those user ids connected to JUST one seller's raffles and so on.

This is about the only way I see to game the system. And even then whoever participates in the raffle is not being scammed because they have the exact same chance per ticket 1 in 20 to win the item.
 
worldison2 said:
How serious is this really?

Is there someone over at Paypal with the authority to close down a website like this? I never heard of them being the Internet police.

...and exactly how illegal are these raffles? They are small potatoes in the overall pictures.

I really don't feel any imminent danger to the forum because one little sniveling baby chose to attempt to "rat us out".

This forum has 30,000 members. Were these raffles really a big secret?

I say we don't ban him. Let's keep him around so we can all laugh at
him.
Click to expand...


Who needs one member to pull the plug on everyone else? BPG, while having a high rep count, has not impressed me with his posts.

Worldison2, you don't have a high post count, but lately that has been proven to mean nothing. ( Congratulations on your top 10 spot!) You have, however, made a lot of quality posts, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

I feel as if not many have a loyalty to AZ that's greater than to themselves. ( And remember, I have been ripped off here!)

Damn you, Southpaw!!!!!!
 
the420trooper said:
Who needs one member to pull the plug on everyone else? BPG, while having a high rep count, has not impressed me with his posts.

Worldison2, you don't have a high post count, but lately that has been proven to mean nothing. ( Congratulations on your top 10 spot!) You have, however, made a lot of quality posts, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

I feel as if not many have a loyalty to AZ that's greater than to themselves. ( And remember, I have been ripped off here!)

Damn you, Southpaw!!!!!!
Click to expand...
BPG has a high rep count not because of his posts but because of his avatar. He is very good at showing A$$. :yeah:
 
ShootingArts said:
The regulations or links to them were posted on here in the past. Federal regulations prohibit interstate raffles, any raffles at all if I am not mistaken, except by certain nonprofit groups. Not even all nonprofits qualify.

In response to Fatboy and others, over 90% of the people I know who have ran afoul of the man thought they were too small to be bothered with. The one thing they all had in common was that there was an easy case against them.

Hu
Click to expand...

this wouldnt be that easy either, its a dead point, amd a dieing pool forum because of threads like this....shame. thankkfully i have read perhaps 15 posts on it and am out of it forever-on to pool for me.
 
pimp said:
yes it was drawn the first raffle after it filled. I wasn't trying to avoid any questions just missed it.
Click to expand...

Pimp,
I was talking about the questions asked to BPG... I know you were good in the auction...

JV
 
Just incase anyone is curious about dfweyers paypal dispute here it is. I figured you saw BPG might as well be fair and show the other. Keep in mind he never said anyhting till jumping on the BPG band wagon.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 07:50 PST

This payment was for a service not provided for... this payment was for a raffle at

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119234

This raffle was not given a date for completion...then suddenly a winner was announced which is likely a close friend of the seller. This auction was a scam on a reputable site for raffles. I would like my money refunded...as a fair chance was not provided to each participant. All other participants of this auction should also be refunded and paid to the same person.

Daniel Weyer requested a $14.00 USD refund.
11/10/2008 07:50 PST
Amy Zimmerman denied Daniel Weyer's request for a $14.00 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:19 PST
From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 12:19 PST

I have no Idea who the guy that won it was. This was a fair raffle and I'm not refunding any money.

From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 12:20 PST

It was a fair raffle and no refund will be given.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:58 PST

This raffle was not fair... the date of the raffle was never mentioned. Then a winner was announced. I would like the illegal raffle process to be closed down on AZBilliards...this was my first and last involvement in a raffle. I am still requesting my money back as that is fair....also many others agree that it is the best way to be handled. Sorry I know you need to the money.

Daniel Weyer requested a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:58 PST
From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:58 PST

Offering a one-time discount...

Daniel Weyer requested a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:59 PST
From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:59 PST

A one-time discount

Amy Zimmerman denied Daniel Weyer's request for a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 19:58 PST
From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 19:58 PST

you will get no refund. you can push this as far as you want.

From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 19:58 PST

you will get no refund. you can push this as far as you want



How you guys like his discounted offer:groucho:
 
pimp said:
Just incase anyone is curious about dfweyers paypal dispute here it is. I figured you saw BPG might as well be fair and show the other. Keep in mind he never said anyhting till jumping on the BPG band wagon.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 07:50 PST

This payment was for a service not provided for... this payment was for a raffle at

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119234

This raffle was not given a date for completion...then suddenly a winner was announced which is likely a close friend of the seller. This auction was a scam on a reputable site for raffles. I would like my money refunded...as a fair chance was not provided to each participant. All other participants of this auction should also be refunded and paid to the same person.

Daniel Weyer requested a $14.00 USD refund.
11/10/2008 07:50 PST
Amy Zimmerman denied Daniel Weyer's request for a $14.00 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:19 PST
From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 12:19 PST

I have no Idea who the guy that won it was. This was a fair raffle and I'm not refunding any money.

From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 12:20 PST

It was a fair raffle and no refund will be given.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:58 PST

This raffle was not fair... the date of the raffle was never mentioned. Then a winner was announced. I would like the illegal raffle process to be closed down on AZBilliards...this was my first and last involvement in a raffle. I am still requesting my money back as that is fair....also many others agree that it is the best way to be handled. Sorry I know you need to the money.

Daniel Weyer requested a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:58 PST
From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:58 PST

Offering a one-time discount...

Daniel Weyer requested a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 12:59 PST
From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:59 PST

A one-time discount

Amy Zimmerman denied Daniel Weyer's request for a $13.50 USD refund.
11/10/2008 19:58 PST
From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 19:58 PST

you will get no refund. you can push this as far as you want.

From Seller - Amy Zimmerman
11/10/2008 19:58 PST

you will get no refund. you can push this as far as you want



How you guys like his discounted offer:groucho:
Click to expand...

Wow...what a tool...exactly the guy you would not want in your pool hall....the second he got beat in a game (felt he was hustled) he would be bringing the cops in your front door to ruin your business

This guy has already said Paypal was not the only place he reported this (meaning he has notified some sort of authorities), and that could result in charges brought against the owners of azbilliards.com for allowing illegal raffles to be run on through the site.....be a shame to lose the best pool forum because some tool thinks GAMBLING IS 100% FAIR ALL THE TIME!....Anyone that gambles on the internet should call me, we can play some craps over the phone, I will roll for you and tell you your numbers, then you can tell me how you want to bet, then I will tell you what your roll was (actually used to run this hustle).....

i love the discount....only a pool player would offer such a thing
 
JB Cases said:
The only way to "fix" the raffles however is for the raffle holder to buy up most of the tickets and gamble on "winning" the item himself. Thus he gets to keep the item and the money from those who didn't win.

For example if I buy a cue for $100 that has a retail price of $200 and I sell 20 tickets at $10 a pop. I "buy" 10 tickets myself and sell the other 10. Thus I automatically am EVEN for the cost of the cue and I have a 50% chance to keep the cue and the money.

So If I win then I do it again and even I don't win the second time I have made a profit and only delivered ONE CUE.

You can see how easily this type of situation could go. The seller can never do worse that even and odds are that he will win many times thus making lots of money off the same item.

I have posted this before. The drawback to this is that it requires a lot of work to not have it show up as a scam. Lot's of multiple user ids, lots of work to not have those user ids connected to JUST one seller's raffles and so on.

This is about the only way I see to game the system. And even then whoever participates in the raffle is not being scammed because they have the exact same chance per ticket 1 in 20 to win the item.
Click to expand...


Your example doesn't make sense, let me try to explain it further.

If someone bought a $200 dollar cue for $100 and raffled it off for twenty spots of 10 dollars. If everything was on the up and up he would make $100 dollars no matter what. 200 (Raffle)-100 (Cost) = 100 (Profit).

If he did as you suggest and have half the numbers himself he is basically flipping a coin for 100 dollars, he has a 50% chance of ending up with nothing or $200. If he continues to do this he will end up with the same amount of money either way.
 
TheMarsMan said:
Your example doesn't make sense, let me try to explain it further.

If someone bought a $200 dollar cue for $100 and raffled it off for twenty spots of 10 dollars. If everything was on the up and up he would make $100 dollars no matter what. 200 (Raffle)-100 (Cost) = 100 (Profit).

If he did as you suggest and have half the numbers himself he is basically flipping a coin for 100 dollars, he has a 50% chance of ending up with nothing or $200. If he continues to do this he will end up with the same amount of money either way.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point. Technically it wouldn't be illegal I suppose but it's a way for a raffle to go off in a way that the participants don't expect.

As I said it's not really rigged but this is one way where a person "could" essentially make decent money without being out anything ever. A normal person would think that if a seller held ten raffles then ten cues found new homes. But in this situation it could only be five, or seven, or nine.

The seller is flipping a coin without putting up anything - it's a free roll. Because if he "wins" the cue then he pockets $100 and does it again. Say he does this with five raffles and ends up "losing" three cues. So in this situation he has taken in $500 and spent $300. Profit: $200.

If he "wins" all five raffles without losing, in effect rolling the same cue over into the next raffle, then he has taken in $500 and spent $100 and still owns the product. Profit: $500

If he "loses" all five cues then he has taken in $500 and spent $500 and is completely even with no losses and five happy winners who all got a new cue. Then he can start over.

The odds are that he is going to "win" a fair number of raffles and thus collect money on those "wins" without delivering a cue to anyone.

I think most of us feel that it's unethical to participate in your own raffle. In this situation WHICH IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL (I hope) I think that we would expect for the product to change owners when the raffle is concluded.

Other than that I see no way to rig the winning number provided that the powerball is used and a future date is chosen.
 
JB Cases said:
That's exactly my point. Technically it wouldn't be illegal I suppose but it's a way for a raffle to go off in a way that the participants don't expect.

As I said it's not really rigged but this is one way where a person "could" essentially make decent money without being out anything ever. A normal person would think that if a seller held ten raffles then ten cues found new homes. But in this situation it could only be five, or seven, or nine.

The seller is flipping a coin without putting up anything - it's a free roll. Because if he "wins" the cue then he pockets $100 and does it again. Say he does this with five raffles and ends up "losing" three cues. So in this situation he has taken in $500 and spent $300. Profit: $200.

If he "wins" all five raffles without losing, in effect rolling the same cue over into the next raffle, then he has taken in $500 and spent $100 and still owns the product. Profit: $500

If he "loses" all five cues then he has taken in $500 and spent $500 and is completely even with no losses and five happy winners who all got a new cue. Then he can start over.

The odds are that he is going to "win" a fair number of raffles and thus collect money on those "wins" without delivering a cue to anyone.

I think most of us feel that it's unethical to participate in your own raffle. In this situation WHICH IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL (I hope) I think that we would expect for the product to change owners when the raffle is concluded.

Other than that I see no way to rig the winning number provided that the powerball is used and a future date is chosen.
Click to expand...

Hi John,

You're missing the point that if he did sell all tickets on those 5 raffles he'd have $500 profit guaranteed.
In your example he'd have to win all 5 raffles (at 50% chance each) to have that same $500 profit.

gr. Dave
 
pimp said:
Just incase anyone is curious about dfweyers paypal dispute here it is. I figured you saw BPG might as well be fair and show the other. Keep in mind he never said anyhting till jumping on the BPG band wagon.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 07:50 PST

This payment was for a service not provided for... this payment was for a raffle at

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=119234

This raffle was not given a date for completion...then suddenly a winner was announced which is likely a close friend of the seller. This auction was a scam on a reputable site for raffles. I would like my money refunded...as a fair chance was not provided to each participant. All other participants of this auction should also be refunded and paid to the same person.

From Buyer - Daniel Weyer
11/10/2008 12:58 PST

This raffle was not fair... the date of the raffle was never mentioned. Then a winner was announced. I would like the illegal raffle process to be closed down on AZBilliards...this was my first and last involvement in a raffle. I am still requesting my money back as that is fair....also many others agree that it is the best way to be handled. Sorry I know you need to the money.
Click to expand...

After reading this and BPG's drivel to paypal, I have come to the conclusion that nice women avatars don't equal intelligence on any level. :) Not fair, no date given? LOL.. How about I didn't win, and when I play the lottery with a scratch off ticket and it doesn't win I also ask for a refund...

Last involvement with a raffle? Should be your last involvement on AZ, heck with the raffle. Auction a scam, are you kidding? Many others agree, lol, many more disagree with you, how come you didn't tell them that?

JV
 
ShootingArts said:
It has been general knowledge to almost all that the raffles are illegal. All it takes is one unhappy person to rock the boat. The raffle sub-forum may have to go away. Since AZB obviously knows of the existence of this illegal activity and condones it, AZB itself is at risk also. BPG24's actions may have far more wide reaching repercussions than he expects. Once you stir crap it is always hard to know how far the stink will go. Perhaps he doesn't care.

Hu
Click to expand...

I read the entire thread in the Raffles section. IMO it really showed what a complete a**hole BPG24 is. He said if we (mods etc) didn't do as he insisted, he would complain to PayPal and have the raffles section dismantled - turned out he had already complained to PayPal. Later in the thread there was discussion of banning him and he said we couldn't do it, and if we did, he would never stop until he took the whole site down. That's BPG24, our fellow AZB member, as best I recall. Oh Yea, and he has made about 4,000 posts in a little over a year, which I believe explains his short patience regarding Pimp's belated Email reply. BPG24 was probably sitting at his computer console, drooling all over the desktop, waiting minute by minute for Pimps response, cause he has no life, and Pimp was at a pool tournament mentoring a teenage poolplayer. Sorry, BP, you lose all the way around, AFAIC. I just hope that someone saved a copy of that thread. You deserve for everyone to read it, and you deserve to its consequences. JMO! And if anyone feels I am wrong, please point that out. I am quick to admit my mistakes when I discover them.
 
Double-Dave said:
Hi John,

You're missing the point that if he did sell all tickets on those 5 raffles he'd have $500 profit guaranteed.
In your example he'd have to win all 5 raffles (at 50% chance each) to have that same $500 profit.

gr. Dave
Click to expand...

I didn't miss that point. I understand the math. Yes, if all the raffles are fully sold then he earns $500 on a $500 investment and has to send five cues out.

If however he does it my way and "wins" some of the raffles then his profit is potentially much higher than 100% because he delivers less product while getting 100% of the profit.

Here is a real simple version.

he has ONE cue to sell. The cue is worth $200 and he paid $100. He sells ten tickets to himself and ten to others. He wins the raffle and keeps the cue.

Now he still has ONE cue and he has $100 cash.

He holds another raffle for the one cue and this time sells all the tickets legitimately - now he has made $300 off his $100 investment on that ONE cue.

Let's say that the second raffle is done like the first though and he buys ten tickets and sells ten to the others. This time he loses and so he has $200 and no cue. He makes ONLY $100 profit this time.

No matter WHAT happens he cannot do worse than break even. Imagine if he ran three raffles on the same cue?

Hell this might be the best scheme ever now that I think about it and no one thinks it's wrong.

Anybody want in my Raffle?
 
JB Cases said:
I didn't miss that point. I understand the math. Yes, if all the raffles are fully sold then he earns $500 on a $500 investment and has to send five cues out.

He only has to invest $500 if he wants to run 5 raffles at the same time.
If he does them one after the other he can buy the second cue from his profit on the first raffle.

If however he does it my way and "wins" some of the raffles then his profit is potentially much higher than 100% because he delivers less product while getting 100% of the profit.

No it's not. The absolute best he can do is the same as if he were to sell all tickets.

Here is a real simple version.

he has ONE cue to sell. The cue is worth $200 and he paid $100. He sells ten tickets to himself and ten to others. He wins the raffle and keeps the cue.

Now he still has ONE cue and he has $100 cash.

He holds another raffle for the one cue and this time sells all the tickets legitimately - now he has made $300 off his $100 investment on that ONE cue.

He made $200 in this best case scenario and not $300 because he spent $100 on the cue that he now no longer has.
The same as if he had held two raffles and sold all tickets.

Let's say that the second raffle is done like the first though and he buys ten tickets and sells ten to the others. This time he loses and so he has $200 and no cue. He makes ONLY $100 profit this time.

Exactly, he only makes $100 this way after two raffles. If he would have sold all tickets the first raffle he would allready have his $100 profit, if he did it again he would have $200 profit guaranteed.
No if ands or buts, no 50% chances, nothing. Guaranteed profit.

No matter WHAT happens he cannot do worse than break even. Imagine if he ran three raffles on the same cue?

He can't do worse than break even if he buys half the tickets, and he can't do better than doubling his money.
However if he sells them all he can't do worse or better than doubling his money, which do you prefer?

Hell this might be the best scheme ever now that I think about it and no one thinks it's wrong.

I think you're wrong.

Anybody want in my Raffle?
Click to expand...

Sorry John, but your math is flawed.

Think of this way, the guy in our examples can buy the cue outright for $100.
He then enters a raffle where he pays $100 for a 50% chance of winning that same cue, surely you can see that's not a smart move.

gr. Dave
 
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