Looking for input

bsmutz

bsmutz

Fearlessly Happy
Silver Member
I'd like to generate a discussion about this bank shot:
P


In my experience, I've found that using low inside English and some speed, I can make this type of shot with some consistency. Problems I've encountered are drawing the cue ball into the pocket after the object ball when the bank angle is very tight requiring lots of speed and the double kiss. When the cue ball is down around "A", there is also the chance of a double kiss. From our collective experience, are there some rules of thumb regarding this cross side bank? I know that when dealing with corner pockets, there is the rule of thumb regarding whether you could shoot the cue ball into the pocket: yes=bank is on, no=double kiss is on but practice has shown that this rule does have exceptions. How close the object ball is to the rail seems to play a big role as well as how far away the cue ball is. Anyone have any thoughts on how to judge the viability of making this shot? Also, if you feel that the shot isn't makeable without double kissing, what safety plays would be available besides sending the cue ball to one end and the object ball to the other? Thanks!
 
I will take a crack at this one.

With the cue and 9 where thare in in the pic. I would be more tempted to bank the 9 cross corner(lower left pocket). With the angle of the cue and 9, it looks like you are only half a diamond off a natural cross corner bank. About half a cue right center english with a firm hit should get you to the corner. Let the english make up for the angle. Or I would use center ball and bank (into same corner pocket) the 9 by cutting it into the rail between the side pocket and 3rd diamond.

If I had to play a side pocket bank(from where the cue and 9 are), I would use slight top/center/right english. Another firm but not fast stroke. I would expect the english to bank/roll the 9 into opposite side while the cueball hits the the side rail down around the 5 diamond and then goes to the foot rail near the corner pocket.

If I had to play the side pocket bank from where the A is at. I would play low very little right hand english and cut/bank the 9 cross side. I would be more worried about the scratch is the lower right corner though.

I dont fully understand your cross corner/double hit question. Perhaps if it was drawn on a table. I do this about cross corner banks. May see obvious but will mention it. If you have the 9 ball 6 inches from the side rail and after contact with the 9 ball, the cue ball is just 6 inches from the foot/head rail, the rebound of both balls will cause contact and make you miss the shot. If you can draw a square of ball travel to and back from the rails for both balls, you need to think about a different shot or use some sort of english to avoid the collision. Hope that makes sense. Sorry if it's useless towards your question.

ez
 
bsmutz said:
I'd like to generate a discussion about this bank shot:
...
Click to expand...
It would be nice to draw the paths that you want to take for the two shots. I assume that both banks are cross-side and the fuller bank is supposed to not cross. Without seeing it on a table, it's hard to tell but the thinner bank (cue ball A) sure looks like it has no way at all to kiss out. The fuller bank looks at first glance like it could be made by either crossing or stiffing the ball. (Stiffing: play nearly full at the object ball with left side on the cue ball and firm speed. Crossing: play the cue ball on the left side of the object ball so that the cue ball crosses the future path of the object ball, which may require some right side spin on the cue ball.)

For a general way to start to study kiss-outs, see To Kiss or Not to Kiss

For close kiss-outs, the cushions can make a big difference. Some cushions seem to return the banked ball very quickly, which usually hurts.
 
Last edited:
can't access articles

Bob,

I tried to do a little reading about what you had to say about squirt a few days or a week ago and tried this article tonight just out of curiosity. While I accessed some of your older articles with no problem, the later ones from maybe 2004 on aren't coming up for me. I didn't try all of them by any means but maybe four or five.

Just a heads up to let you know there might be a problem.

Hu

Bob Jewett said:
It would be nice to draw the paths that you want to take for the two shots. I assume that both banks are cross-side and the fuller bank is supposed to not cross. Without seeing it on a table, it's hard to tell but the thinner bank (cue ball A) sure looks like it has no way at all to kiss out. The fuller bank looks at first glance like it could be made by either crossing or stiffing the ball. (Stiffing: play nearly full at the object ball with left side on the cue ball and firm speed. Crossing: play the cue ball on the left side of the object ball so that the cue ball crosses the future path of the object ball, which may require some right side spin on the cue ball.)

For a general way to start to study kiss-outs, see [url="http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-07.pdf]To Kiss or Not to Kiss[/url]

For close kiss-outs, the cushions can make a big difference. Some cushions seem to return the banked ball very quickly, which usually hurts.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the replies, guys. I didn't mean to make this about "the" particular shot that I posted, but any cross side bank where the cue ball is below the natural angle and the cut up the long rail is unavailable. I was looking for generic rules of thumb for how far the object ball is from the rail and how far the cue ball is from the object ball to avoid the double kiss. I'll look at Bob's document and do some more experimentation, I guess. I like banking to the side pocket as it is a much bigger target than the half (or slightly more) a corner pocket on the cut down the rail.

Hu, when I clicked on Bob's link and got the "Unresolved Host Name" message, I looked at the URL and noticed that an extra "%22http//" was imbedded in the address. Once I manually removed that, the page came up fine. You should be able to see these extra characters (displays as 'http//) in the bottom of your IE browser window when you mouse over the link.
 
Last edited:
Bill...A general rule of thumb about "kissy" banks is if the OB is the same distance from two rails. In the case of your example, like Bob, I don't see any possible double kiss from the position with the CB closer to the rail. In the other CB position, this shot is very close to an old proposition shot...OB is one ball's width off the rail, at the closest diamond to the side pocket. CB is on the head or foot spot, depending on which side of the table you're on.
Your description of how to shoot the shot is pretty much on...I just draw the CB out of the way of the bank, with low inside english...but with just enough speed to draw the CB. You don't have to drill this shot to make it go. Hal Mix showed me this shot 30 yrs ago.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
ShootingArts said:
... the later ones from maybe 2004 on aren't coming up for me. I didn't try all of them by any means but maybe four or five. ...
Click to expand...
I just tried some of the links and there is a serious problem with Jan 2006, but the others before then seem OK. You may need to exit/restart whatever browser you are using after a certain number of files, depending on how it handles PDFs. Thanks for the heads-up.
 
bsmutz said:
... Hu, when I clicked on Bob's link and got the "Unresolved Host Name" message, I looked at the URL and noticed that an extra "%22http//" was imbedded in the address. Once I manually removed that, the page came up fine. You should be able to see these extra characters (displays as 'http//) in the bottom of your IE browser window when you mouse over the link.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's my bad. I tried to do something fancy and didn't put in enough quote marks to get "URL with a normal text label". Here it is plain:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-07.pdf
 
Thanks, Scott. From my experience, it seems that there is a zone between the two shots I diagrammed where the double kiss is unavoidable. If the object ball is between say half an inch up to maybe two balls off the rail and the cue ball is in the right (or wrong, lol) position, I can't draw it out of the way nor can I roll it past. The object ball just seems to be bound and determined to hit the cue ball when it comes off the rail. I've never really spent some time practicing different variations of english or speeds, but whenever the shot comes up and I have that funny feeling that the double kiss is on, whatever I've tried has given me the same result.
 
Thanks Bob and bsmutz

Noi problem getting to the articles that I couldn't get to last week when I tried a few minutes ago. I have to admit I never checked the URL when I followed the link from here the other night! :o

Hu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top