Looking for the Magic Stroke

[Johnnyt]

I see thread after thread on here about stance and stroke. I?m not knocking it if it helps some players to get better. But don?t you all think this is a fair statement? More than half of the great players over the years had ugly strokes. Just for starters Efren, Allen, Kieth. I was no pro player but I always figured the last 3? to 6? going straight through the ball was all that mattered...how you got there didn?t matter. Johnnyt

 

[Scott Lee]

Here's another way of looking at it...

Johnnyt...Nobody can argue that if you line up the top 100 pros, and look at their stance and stroke...they ALL will be somewhat different. What will be the same, is that each one of them sets up and delivers their cue THEIR way, the same way, every time. I think that is basically what you're talking about. However, the huge majority of players do not possess the 1) natural timing and talent, 2) determination, patience, and persistence, and 3) 10-20 YEARS to work out the kinks. So...trying to emulate something that only one, or at best a few people, can do successfully is, imo, an unreliable means to an end. Learning something that anyone can do (fitting your stroke and stance to your body), and every one can master (provided they practice it the right way), seems to me to be the best way to accomplish the goal, and achieve the desired result.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I see thread after thread on here about stance and stroke. I?m not knocking it if it helps some players to get better. But don?t you all think this is a fair statement? More than half of the great players over the years had ugly strokes. Just for starters Efren, Allen, Kieth. I was no pro player but I always figured the last 3? to 6? going straight through the ball was all that mattered...how you got there didn?t matter. Johnnyt

 

[Gregg]

I think everybody is looking for a consistent stroke, even if it's ugly.

And, consistent does not imply the only the stance and stroke.

It's more than that.

 

[JoeyInCali]

More than half of the great players over the years had ugly strokes.
I happen to think Efren's stroke is beautiful.
His tip goes thru that cueball smoothly all the time.
But, Kim Davenport and Buddy Hall have the sweetest stroke I think.
Choo Choo Coltrain had a stroke of beauty too before he got the shakes.

 

[Gerry]

NOT UGLY....kinda cool

Keith?....NO WAY....ugly is the wrong word.

unusual, yea...

sidearm, yup...

repeatable, sure as hell is for Earthquake.

I kinda have a sidearm thing going on too. I started playing at about 6 and I couldnt reach the table to have proper pendulum thing happening. Now I try to fix it and I just wanna give up, and go back to what I know, which I always do.

Gerry

 

[Johnnyt]

Johnnyt...Nobody can argue that if you line up the top 100 pros, and look at their stance and stroke...they ALL will be somewhat different. What will be the same, is that each one of them sets up and delivers their cue THEIR way, the same way, every time. I think that is basically what you're talking about. However, the huge majority of players do not possess the 1) natural timing and talent, 2) determination, patience, and persistence, and 3) 10-20 YEARS to work out the kinks. So...trying to emulate something that only one, or at best a few people, can do successfully is, imo, an unreliable means to an end. Learning something that anyone can do (fitting your stroke and stance to your body), and every one can master (provided they practice it the right way), seems to me to be the best way to accomplish the goal, and achieve the desired result.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

That makes sense to me. Thanks Scott. Johnnyt

 

[3kushn]

I think in part you answered your own question. You list some pros that have "ugly strokes". Try to emulate one of them and see how well you pocket balls, apply English, control the CB.

An unorthodox stroke isn't wrong, ... or right. It simply makes the game harder to learn. A by the book "Perfect Stroke" eliminates the variables. No Variables = Consistency.

I sure wish I started day one with lessons so I didn't have to spend so much time unlearning all the variables I created.

I sometimes need a reminder now and again. I work on one thing and something else comes up. I feel this is why many top sports pros have personal trainers. They can see them when they drift off their form and or basic fundamentals and part of the job is to remind them.

 

[Johnnyt]

First let me say that I wish I had taken lessons 50 years ago from a pro. But in my area you would get laughed at taking pool lessons back then. I really believe that lessons from a good instructor can and in most cases will help the game of someone just starting and wanting to get better. What I don?t think happens is that an instructor can make a D player into a A player.

Go into any poolroom and you?ll find one or more players that are constantly reading books, watching DVD?s, and taking lessons for ten or more years. Every week they?re working on changing some part of their game. For the most part most these guys are at best two levels up to B after all those years, and most never get to really enjoy the game because their Always Working on it. I stand on what I?ve said on here many times...if a D player doesn?t have a lot of natural talent he can?t be taught to be an A player. Johnnyt

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

Looking for the Magic Stroke


is it the stroke or the state of mind? I know I lost the stroke I once had, but the ability to pocket, well all aspects of the game are within reach, Yet I feel Im being held back because of my stroke. Timing, what is that anyways, you hear so much about it, maybe its all in the timing, I wouldnt know, but some say its important. I do know no matter how good you can target, your stroke makes all the differance. does that realte to your stance? could it be your grip, maybe we should look at it as a whole, where everything works together as a system, maybe nothing matter's but a perfect swing. I have no idea.


I know when it all comes together however it may, Im feeling good, the balls seem to find the pocket, and the racks go by like Im in a time machine, I cant remember the last rack, all I see is the ball in front of me, I hear nothing, I feel like Im in a trace, and even if I try I cant think, it would spoil the moment, I just react. The world stands still while I play, its the greatest feeling, No sorrow, No regret, I dont even remember thier name, I feel at home, my mind, my body have become one. When Im finshed, My eyes feel funny, I have a mental hangover now, , then I realize, its not me, Im not the one playing the game, I am mearly a bystander, there is a higher plane, a higher being, no matter the sport, Something somewhere takes over to help you achieve. If your aware of this everytime you pick up your cue be thankful, and respect the game. you cant fly solo, dont even try. you fail only if you rebel.




The swing? or the state of mind? you decide, just remember what ive said, if you find this place I speak of, rejoyce you know your not alone.


SPINDOKTOR

 

[Nekdo]

Everybody used to tell me all kind of things what was wrong with my stroke.And how to do it correct.I was constantly changing all sort of things and i was more inconsitent then ever.Mostly because all this crap didnt feel natural.nowdays i correct myself when i notice that im doing something wrong.When i stopped listening what is wrong, my game improved a lot.The funny part is that the comments has changed for the better.
Without the professional instructor who would be able to tell me WHY and HOW to change, im not changing anything.

 

[JoeW]

Certainly one needs a good repeatable stroke to play well. However, I think that the essence of good playing and great playing is concentration at the time of the hit. The player needs a routine, a state of mind, a way to focus their concentration on every shot.

Take a simple 20 degree cut shot to the corner over the length of the table and you can miss it several times in a row if you do not focus and concentrate on the contact points and the line the OB travels. There are many ways to aim from ghost ball to tracks. One can focus on the back or the front of the CB and may or not "see" that imaginary line. None of these will help if you shift your focus and concentration at the last moment. That is where stroke comes into play. With a solid stroke and routine one can actually look away from the shot and make it as a demonstration. I do not think that one could truly play this way for a game or a match however unless they had the ability to completely immobilize their body (excepting the stroke).

The player needs a routine for focus and concentration on every shot that will yield that same non-moving stance and repeatable stroke. I think that one way to do that is to eliminate the variables one by one. Most everyone knows to think about position before they bend down. This eliminates one of the variables. However, once the player is down over the ball focus and concentration continues to move around. Perhaps the player continues to calculate exactly how much offset is needed on the CB for the shot, where the OB will hit the rail and how much running English will develop. Or the player "looks up" (let alone moves their body) to see if the CB rolls as prescribed.

I have been toying with the idea that when it is time to hit the CB all of my concentration is now on the OB and nothing else. My mind will only be engaged in drawing that line through the OB to the pocket. That is all I see and focus on. My mind and perception is not allowed to leave this focused concentration until the OB is in the pocket. I must see the OB ball go down the line. I find that this developing routine is leading to many fewer misses and positional play has not suffered too much.

While there are many ways to aim I have begun using an old technique that helps to focus on the shot. When in the shooting position I visually cut the OB ball in half horizontally and then visualize the line and tracks through the OB. I have begun mating the front of the CB to this contact point and find that all of this takes strong mental effort and requires my full concentration. The result has been longer runs.

I think that once this forced concentration is routine then the length of runs is more consistent.

One of the ways I stumbled on this idea is by noticing that after making so many balls in one run I would miss an "easy" shot, one I should not have missed. Therefore, I concluded, it must be about concentration not about stroke.

One of the benefits of this increase in focus is that the unconscious (self 2 for those who know about it) takes care of the stroke while Self 1, the thinking side, is occupied with focus on an important task.

 

[Scott Lee]

Johnnyt...I'd have to disagree. I have taken a beginning player all the way to being a national champion. Did he have enormous natural talent? NO... Did he work hard at improving his game, on a daily basis for the time that it took (which included lessons, tournaments and gambling)? YES! That time frame was about 5 years. After winning two national titles, he quit playing pool, and became a realtor, where he is quite successful, and enjoys his time with his wife and kids. He also took up golf, which he figures is less stressful!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

What I don?t think happens is that an instructor can make a D player into a A player.

I stand on what I?ve said on here many times...if a D player doesn?t have a lot of natural talent he can?t be taught to be an A player. Johnnyt

 

[Scott Lee]

Without the professional instructor who would be able to tell me WHY and HOW to change, im not changing anything.

Nekdo...Good advice...especially the "why" and "how" parts! It's not about do as I say, because I say so...it's about do as I say, because it represents a very probable substancial improvement in your consistency and overall ability. Explaining the 'why' and 'how' are critical to the student making the choice to pursue excellence, as a result of taking lessons.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Johnnyt]

Johnnyt...I'd have to disagree. I have taken a beginning player all the way to being a national champion. Did he have enormous natural talent? NO... Did he work hard at improving his game, on a daily basis for the time that it took (which included lessons, tournaments and gambling)? YES! That time frame was about 5 years. After winning two national titles, he quit playing pool, and became a realtor, where he is quite successful, and enjoys his time with his wife and kids. He also took up golf, which he figures is less stressful!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thats one out of how many thousand that you've given lessons to? Johnnyt

 

[hilla_hilla]

I have NEVER thought of Efren's stroke as ugly.

I don't think it matters how ugly or unorthodox your stroke is as long as you have good fundamentals, it is consistant (even if it's consistantly ugly) and you master your own style.

Different strokes for different folks .

 

[Johnnyt]

I have NEVER thought of Efren's stroke as ugly.

I don't think it matters how ugly or unorthodox your stroke is as long as you have good fundamentals, it is consistant (even if it's consistantly ugly) and you master your own style.

Different strokes for different folks .

I agree...and I shouldn't have used ugly for his stroke. Johnnyt

 

[Neil]

..................

 

[Johnnyt]

I will agree that MOST students do not become A players from D players. But I also feel that if they had the teacher with them regularly, not just for a lesson or two, but most of the time, they would get up to an A or better.

I also feel that the mechanics, as important as they are, are only about 10-20% of the 'game'. Mental is the rest of it. That is the part that can really hold one back, and can take YEARS to learn the REAL basics of it. ( Although less than years nowdays thanks to things like this forum. But it can still take a long time to sink in what you actually read here.)

As SPINDOKTOR pointed out, dead stroke is what you want to achieve all the time. Where your subconscious plays the table. That really takes practice- letting go and trusting yourself to do what you know to do.

Well we'll never know if that is true or not...99.9% couldn't afford a teacher MOST OF THE TIME. Johnnyt

 

[Mark Avlon]

The player needs a routine for focus and concentration on every shot that will yield that same non-moving stance and repeatable stroke. I think that one way to do that is to eliminate the variables one by one. Most everyone knows to think about position before they bend down. This eliminates one of the variables. However, once the player is down over the ball focus and concentration continues to move around. Perhaps the player continues to calculate exactly how much offset is needed on the CB for the shot, where the OB will hit the rail and how much running English will develop. Or the player "looks up" (let alone moves their body) to see if the CB rolls as prescribed.

I have been toying with the idea that when it is time to hit the CB all of my concentration is now on the OB and nothing else. My mind will only be engaged in drawing that line through the OB to the pocket. That is all I see and focus on. My mind and perception is not allowed to leave this focused concentration until the OB is in the pocket. I must see the OB ball go down the line. I find that this developing routine is leading to many fewer misses and positional play has not suffered too much.

Tap, Tap, Tap!

 

[Johnnyt]

I have to laugh. Everytime there is anything on here thats even remotely negative or might hint of over teaching, here come the parade of BCA cert. teachers to protect their turf. What do you guys have, a panic button to one another. LMAO. Johnnyt