Looking to the future

Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
About a year ago I spoke out and said that the IPT couldn't and wouldn't work. I was told that I was being negative. I was told that I was sore about not being selected in the original 150 players. There were a lot of nasty things said to me after I wrote Blackjack's Buzzkill, but I knew I was right for doing so. It damaged me professionally, personally, and politically within "the system". I started receiving ugly messages and having ugly phone conversations with people that said I was trying to toss negativity into the greatest thing that had ever happened to professional pool. For a millisecond I had second thoughts about it. That didn't last long.

One of the most hurtful things that were said to me was that everything I had done in the past didn't matter and that I should just shut up, know my place in the world, and sit back and watch. Should I do the same thing now?

What should we do? This thing is a big mess and sitting around *****ing about it and waiting for the IPT to make the next move is not very productive. Should we react or should we act? Should we sit around pissed off like we did 10 years ago when the Camel Tour folded? That wasn't very prodcutive either. What is the proactive approach?

I've been quiet for a stretch and that has been on purpose. If I'm being honest, its because I am pissed. I'm pissed at Trudeau. I'm pissed at Deno (and I don't care how nice of a guy some of you think he is - he stinks of Trudeau and speaks for Trudeau which speaks volumes for his true character), I am pissed at the players for putting themselves into this situation, and I am pissed off at the industry for not supporting the game of pool like the game of pool supports them. For the past month I have severed ties with everybody because I'm tired of talking endlessly about what we should do. Nobody wants to do anything except watch the IPT and wait for their next move. That's wasting time and its counterproductive to what needs to be accomplished. Its definitely not helping our game or our image.

This is our sport, its not Kevin Trudeau's. He may have come in and tossed his money around but some of us couldn't be bought. Some of us had the cajones to be in his face throughout this ordeal knowing that the money would stop abruptly at some point. Some of us connect our integrity with our words and our actions. Some of us love pool and love the players more than money. Some of us refuse to allow another smooth talking jack-ass in a thousand dollar suit come in and rape us of our dreams and our livelihood. Enough is enough. I don't care if Kevin Trudeau shells out another $15M to the players tomorrow - he'll pay the players to shut them up and manipulate them. Anyone that believes in him unknowingly becomes enslaved to the outcome of his vague promises and business dealings.

I don't have a million bucks. All I have is a vision. I don't care if I make a dime doing what I do as long as it creates a foundation for a tour that the players and the industry can be proud of. Instead of facing off against each other, we need to come together to achieve a common goal. Until that happens, we will continue to run ourselves out of energy on this treadmill we've created for ourselves.

So this is what I propose. I'm all in. By that I am saying that I will do whatever it takes to create something for the players that is based upon integrity that will ultimately lead to prosperity. Not for me, but for them. Let's build a tour that has a firm financial foundation from within the industry and from oustide the industry. Design a tour that not only provides for the players financial future, but the future of the entire sport. Like I said, I don't have a million bucks, but I do have a vision. That vision is designed to elevate the sport which will then elevate the players. We have the resources within our our own industry. Some of the key people needed to pull this off actually post in this forum. Associating ourselves with dirty money is not the answer. We're seeing that now. If you want to assist me, send me an e-mail at blkjackds12@yahoo.com . Don't contact me if you just want to shoot the breeze and talk about the IPT and everything that's going wrong. Who cares? That's their problem. I don't care about the IPT. I really couldn't care less what they do from this moment forward and hopefully most of you adopt the same attitude. If you have a vision for pool and want to be part of something special, let me know. We will only be limited by our lack of action, imagination, cooperation and openmindedness.
 
David,

There is a lawyer working on the issue in Chicago. I will be sending you his information.
 
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The Future ...

BJ ... The attitude is admirable, but it still takes money and lots of it to start a tour such as you are talking about, and major sponsors to back it up.
 
Snapshot9 said:
BJ ... The attitude is admirable, but it still takes money and lots of it to start a tour such as you are talking about, and major sponsors to back it up.
Click to expand...

The resources for that exist within our industry and from outside our industry. The problem is that nobody wants to take the plunge. I am saying that I will. My goal is not to compete with anyone. My goal is to ensure that everybody is involved with this. Its not going to pop up overnight, it will take a lot of work and dedication. Remember, we can only be limited by our lack of action, imagination, cooperation and openmindedness.
 
TAP...TAP...TAP Blackjack. Cheers to you for seeing "the dark side of the moon" early on.

The negative sentiment you were exposed to was predicatble because it is human nature. When you look at the history of cults...religeous or otherwise, you come to know that people will go to unimaginable extremes to follow the latest Holy Grail and they will dispise anyone who casts doubt.

I'm a Court TV addict and recently watched a segment were a guy in a small town "befriended" a local, wealthy widow, gained her total confidence...got a power of attorney over her finances and then began to squander them. Interestingly though, he didn't keep too much of the money for himself but rather was passing it out...like Robin Hood...to practically every one and every "cause" in the county. MILLIONS were literally given away to the local folks.

When he was found out, the prosecution had to appeal for a change of venue to SEVERAL counties away for fear of being unable to impanel a jury that would convict the guy. And in a poll taken by the Court TV people after his conviction, the majority of the local citizenry thought the man was "a good guy"

Anyway, I feel your pain but hope you can "let it go" because while this won't make you feel any better, the criticism you took was simply human nature...people latching on to a dream and refusing to let go.

Finally, I utterly agree that there SHOULD be a tour sponsored by a consortium of venue owners and pool product manufacturers who truly benefit from the increasing popularity of pool that results from great exhibitions of profession level play.
Regards,
Jim
 
Blackjack, if you are going to be pissed, be pissed at everyone who was willing to trust a man that made a fortune off of poor ignorant human beings. Robbing the elderly and sick isn't exactly the Christian way. So anybody who put their faith in KT put their faith in an evil man. The world is full of them! So I suggest we get off the problem and on to the solution. We must come up with a way to put on tournaments so the players and promotors make a decent living. That is what we all want! That is what the fans want too. Who has run the longest lasting tournament in the US? That's where I would go for the start. Find out what works and try and improve on it. I would certainly be willing to invest in a product like that. There are most likely quite a few of us who love/ have a passion for the game, players, cuemakers and cues. We need somebody who is honest to head the whole thing up!
Purdman
 
A Real Pro Pool Tour

Okay guys, here's the deal.

Over 15 years ago, I brought a proposal to the BCA regarding a national Pool Tour. They were the logical ones to sponsor this, as they were all in the Pool business. I proposed a twelve city tour with each event having a guaranteed $100,000 purse. It would have cost a total of $1,800,000 to fund this tour.

They listened to my proposal and studied the plan (it was all in writing). By the way, I would have conducted the tour; finding the venues, hiring employees, doing all the logistcs. They turned me down.

This plan would have required all the major companies in Pool to put up from five to ten thousand each. I felt at the time, the benefits to the sport (and them) would have been immense. To date, that has been my last go round with the BCA.

To do a similar tour today with each event having a $250,000 purse, would cost in the neighborhood of $3,600,000. It would bring in income from the "Gate", vendors, entry fees, DVD's, food and beverage sales on site. Total income would not offset expenses in the beginning. Estimated income would be about $2,000,000+, so it would operate at a loss. At least until some appreciable television revenue could be derived. This could happen as early as the second year.

Such a tour would be a great promotion for the billiard industry. It would be legitimate and feature the best players in the game. It would get publicity all across the USA in newspapers and on television. If anyone out there is interested in helping fund this or get behind this effort, I am still willing to do the work. I have the know-how to book arenas, do the publicity and advertising, hire staff, set up the arenas, and conduct the events. To date, the Pool industry has not supported such a plan.

I still feel it would benefit everyone in the Pool industry immensely. But I can't do it out of my pocket. So I am being honest about that. I am willing to put in the time and effort, like David, but I need backing. And who better than the maufacturers to back their own industry. I tried many times to obtain outside sponsorship for a Pro Pool tour with no success.

Any ideas out there? I know one thing. We have some bright people here at AZ. Maybe a Limited Partnership with each share costing 100K. We still need to sell all 35 shares. I will buy one. Okay who wants the second one? Thirty four to go and we have a Tour. And I will GUARANTEE that!
 
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jay helfert said:
Okay guys, here's the deal.

Over 15 years ago, I brought a proposal to the BCA regarding a national Pool Tour. They were the logical ones to sponsor this, as they were all in the Pool business. I proposed a twelve city tour with each event having a guaranteed $100,000 purse. It would have cost a total of $1,800,000 to fund this tour.

To do a similar tour today with each event having a $250,000 purse, would cost in the neighborhood of $3,600,000. It would bring in income from the "Gate", vendors, entry fees, DVD's, food and beverage sales on site. Total income would not offset expenses in the beginning. Estimated income would be about $2,000,000+, so it would operate at a loss. At least until some appreciable television revenue could be derived. This could happen as early as the second year.
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Jay,
I think one reason why the IPT has failed is that it tried to do everything on too grand a scale, all within its first year.

I think your idea and Blackjack's ideas might have a much better chance of success if you start out small and expand over time. Instead of a 250K purse, for example, perhaps much a smaller 175K purse would initially be better. Starting out more modestly so that expenses match your income would help ensure the chances of this tour succeeding.
 
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an honest man

Purdman said:
Blackjack, if you are going to be pissed, be pissed at everyone who was willing to trust a man that made a fortune off of poor ignorant human beings. Robbing the elderly and sick isn't exactly the Christian way. So anybody who put their faith in KT put their faith in an evil man. The world is full of them! So I suggest we get off the problem and on to the solution. We must come up with a way to put on tournaments so the players and promotors make a decent living. That is what we all want! That is what the fans want too. Who has run the longest lasting tournament in the US? That's where I would go for the start. Find out what works and try and improve on it. I would certainly be willing to invest in a product like that. There are most likely quite a few of us who love/ have a passion for the game, players, cuemakers and cues. We need somebody who is honest to head the whole thing up!
Purdman
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Mr. Purdman....that last line kinda made me chuckle to myself.....I was reminded of a birthday gift I received a long time ago....somebody gave me a Coleman lantern (for camping)...when I told a friend what I got, He said,"Are you going to look for an honest man in the woods with it?".......'nuff said....
 
To both Jay and David.

The solution your looking forward is not some wealthy investor. Unfortunately, that wont gurantee a sustained tour.

The real problem in the billiards industry is the industry itself. I know this to be true.

Ultimately, no one would be interested in continually throwing money at an idea like this, without the hope of eventually, in a short amount of time having the tour be self sustaining.

We all know the usuall billiard sponsors. There are some table companys, sardo, simonis etc. They often get sponsorship if they invest as little as 5k. And they arent intersted unless the even is guaranteed to be televised.

Everytoutnament in the world approaches the same sponsors. In all fairness to them, how many times can ou go to the same well?

The other problem is tv. Plain and simple, they are not interested, for many reasons. Some balk at the image of the players, poor spectator turnout, etc. Truth is, pool is boring to the average viewer. It's hard to say that, but none of us here are normal viewers. We would be considered the base, but their isnt any upside.

Poker is ONLY succesful for one reason. Don't kid yourself. It is successful, because anyone can participate, amateurs and pros alike. and ANYONE can win.

If i thought i could make a 5% return, i would try something myself. Keep in mind, I wouldnt EVER take a risk today unless my upside potential was huge. Only time i write a check today is if i can make multiples on my investment. As far as pool is concerned, i would make an exception. But still, i dont want to lose my shirt either.

Unfortunately, i couldnt bank on the players, fans or the industry to come through for pool.

I think the only way for success could be through outside new sponsorship or through a player owned, higher entry and qualifier system.

If the ipt model had been different, it may have worked. I could see having a host of qualifiers to raise the purse for the first event. Then everyone pays an entry fee. so yes, first event you pay 2x. But every penny gets paid out. But those will be the first full year members. Of course, only the strongest will get through, not like random player selections.

Each event their should be a dsignated amount of qualifier spots. Lets say a grand to enter the qualifier. 30 or 40 spots. The 120 or so members entering each event must pay a 2k entry fee. So you get 156 players paying 2k each, plus the qualifying money.

Purses would be more modest, but the money would be earned by the tour, prior to the event. All entry funds would be held in escrow.

The best chance of success comes from the players. The steeper entries will guarantee only the best compete.Those that cant afford it, could get backers.

I know my idea is not perfect, and has room for improvement or changes. I have written this quickly, so i dont even know if it is coherent.

I am willing to entertain any other ideas though. Although i am skeptical, i am willing to listen.

sorry this is so freakin long.

rg
 
Why I believe the IPT has failed...

Purdman said:
We need somebody who is honest to head the whole thing up!
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Of course you need someone honest to head a tour. But the IPT actually did NOT fail because it was headed by a dishonest man. Even if KT was honest (which he's not), the IPT still would have failed.

The IPT failed simply because it ran out of money. It ran out of money because it didn't grab the sponsors it expected it would. It didn't nab any sponsors because there was not much of a viewing audience. And here lies the true failure of the IPT...the IPT didn't get much of a viewing audience because it created such crappy, low-quality TV broadcasts of the pool tournaments, starting with the Sigel vs. LJJ match.

KT actually did succeed in giving the IPT the initial TV exposure. Trudeau fronted the money to hold and film the Sigel vs. LJJ match. I believe his greatest achievement was that he convinced (which means paid) FSN to broadcast the match numerous times on their network, hoping to grab some attention and a future audience.

Yup, KT succeeded in casting the hook...but unfortunately KT neglected to put any bait on that hook. Because the TV broadcast of the Sigel vs. LJJ was such crap, it evidently didn't get much positive response from the TV viewers. Did anyone else besides me wonder why FSN didn't pick up the KOTH series? Simple answer, FSN was disappointed by the feedback it received from the Sigel vs. LJJ program. Sure, OLN eventually picked up the KOTH series. OLN who?...my point exactly.

I'm not trying to say that KT being a liar is inconsequential. Of course not. The reason the IPT players are currently unpaid for Reno is BECAUSE KT is a liar. An honest man wouldn't have held the Reno event in the first place. He would have said, even before the NA Open, "Sorry folks, we're not bringing in enough income for this tour to keep going. So although I can guarantee you prize money for the NA Open, I cannot guarantee prize money for Reno. So I guess it's all over after the NA Open. Thanks for your support."

My point is that you can't blame IPT's failure on KT's dishonesty. Nope. What you should do is blame IPT's failure on KT's stupidity. I actually thought that the IPT had a great chance of succeeding, provided KT produced a high quality television show. He didn't do it, thus no audience, no sponsors, no money, and no tour.

So for the peeps looking to start your own tour, learn from the big mistake of the IPT. It's all about how well you package it on TV. The IPT failed because of this.
 
jsp said:
My point is that you can't blame IPT's failure on KT's dishonesty. Nope. What you should do is blame IPT's failure on KT's stupidity.
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I agree his "stupidity" was a major factor, but not the only one. The stupidest miscalculation he made was the stupefyingly arrogant assumption that his sullied name could bring credibility and sponsors to the game of pool. His name couldn't bring credibility to a skid row flop house.

He must live in a bubble, because even though there are plenty of desperate and deluded people still willing to buy his snake-oil products, they are a tiny segment of the population. To the rest of the grown-ups, his Jedi mind-tricks simply don't work.

And that is where his dishonesty crosses paths with his stupidity. His previous brushes with the law and notoriety make legitimate sponsors and potential fans gag. He should have been smart enough to know this, but he let his ego cloud his judgment. He thought he could stand up and yell "LOVE ME", and everyone would. He was just, plain dead wrong.
 
I have to disagree on one point.

You are assuming that high quality TV for MS vs. LJJ would have drawn a favorable enough response to generate a large enough audience in the future to gain enough corporate sponsorship to support the high purses of the IPT. I doubt it very much. ESPN is not great, but how much better do you think they could draw if they improved the commentary etc.... Not much. It's a limited viewership and we have to get used to that for now. The purses have to match the potential income. If the economics don't work, neither can the tour.


jsp said:
Of course you need someone honest to head a tour. But the IPT actually did NOT fail because it was headed by a dishonest man. Even if KT was honest (which he's not), the IPT still would have failed.

The IPT failed simply because it ran out of money. It ran out of money because it didn't grab the sponsors it expected it would. It didn't nab any sponsors because there was not much of a viewing audience. And here lies the true failure of the IPT...the IPT didn't get much of a viewing audience because it created such crappy, low-quality TV broadcasts of the pool tournaments, starting with the Sigel vs. LJJ match.

KT actually did succeed in giving the IPT the initial TV exposure. Trudeau fronted the money to hold and film the Sigel vs. LJJ match. I believe his greatest achievement was that he convinced (which means paid) FSN to broadcast the match numerous times on their network, hoping to grab some attention and a future audience.

Yup, KT succeeded in casting the hook...but unfortunately KT neglected to put any bait on that hook. Because the TV broadcast of the Sigel vs. LJJ was such crap, it evidently didn't get much positive response from the TV viewers. Did anyone else besides me wonder why FSN didn't pick up the KOTH series? Simple answer, FSN was disappointed by the feedback it received from the Sigel vs. LJJ program. Sure, OLN eventually picked up the KOTH series. OLN who?...my point exactly.

I'm not trying to say that KT being a liar is inconsequential. Of course not. The reason the IPT players are currently unpaid for Reno is BECAUSE KT is a liar. An honest man wouldn't have held the Reno event in the first place. He would have said, even before the NA Open, "Sorry folks, we're not bringing in enough income for this tour to keep going. So although I can guarantee you prize money for the NA Open, I cannot guarantee prize money for Reno. So I guess it's all over after the NA Open. Thanks for your support."

My point is that you can't blame IPT's failure on KT's dishonesty. Nope. What you should do is blame IPT's failure on KT's stupidity. I actually thought that the IPT had a great chance of succeeding, provided KT produced a high quality television show. He didn't do it, thus no audience, no sponsors, no money, and no tour.

So for the peeps looking to start your own tour, learn from the big mistake of the IPT. It's all about how well you package it on TV. The IPT failed because of this.
Click to expand...
 
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Blackjack,
From your recent posts over the past several weeks I got the impression you were still behind the IPT. Now I see that you have finally come to your senses (not being rude) that the IPT is done. I think that too many players, if not paid for Reno will be disheartened and George Breedlove will go back to making furniture, Mark Tadd will go back to playing Poker, you get the picture. Good luck, and I wish you well with your dream but I am a glass half empty kind of guy & the big money pool tour is a dead issue. A corporate sponsor or industry sponsor is going to see that if the IPT didn't work for TV ratings, fan base, etc. than unfortunately nothing will.
 
Here is a possiblity that might work. Set up 10 regional tours. Each tour holds 10 tournaments a year. Entry fee for each tournament is $50. $10 covers operating expenses, $20 gets paid out in prize money, and $20 is set aside. Assuming you can get 50 players at each event, at the end of the tour season, each tour has set aside $10,000. That money is used to pay entry fee for the top 10 players at $1,000 into a major event. Now you have 100 players qualified to play in this event at $1,000 each for a total purse of $100,000. The regional tours make a little money, there is a payout at each regional tournament, and there is a nice prize waiting for the top ten players in each tour.

OK, guys...pick it apart. I want to know why this can't work.
Steve
 
pooltchr said:
Here is a possiblity that might work. Set up 10 regional tours. Each tour holds 10 tournaments a year. Entry fee for each tournament is $50. $10 covers operating expenses, $20 gets paid out in prize money, and $20 is set aside. Assuming you can get 50 players at each event, at the end of the tour season, each tour has set aside $10,000. That money is used to pay entry fee for the top 10 players at $1,000 into a major event. Now you have 100 players qualified to play in this event at $1,000 each for a total purse of $100,000. The regional tours make a little money, there is a payout at each regional tournament, and there is a nice prize waiting for the top ten players in each tour.

Steve
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I like it. I would like to expand it even further. Instead of yearly, how about quarterly? Have 10 regional tours, having 10 tournaments a quarter, with $100.00 entry, $20, $40, $40 respectively.

What I then had in mind was to have the "main event" played at one of four major Pool events during the year, ie Derby City, Valley Forge, Vegas, Windy City. Each quarter would be a different discipline of Pocket Billiards. ie- 10 Ball, 8-Ball, One Pocket, Straight Pool.

The $1000.00 entry fees are paid for the top ten finishers by their respective regions to make up 100 of 150 roster spots. The remaining 50 are open to anyone wanting to pay $2000.00 to get in the field. The additional $1000.00 goes to an all around championship fund for the top
"All Around" finishers at the end of all four major events for the year.
The format would be round Robin to decide a Double elimination bracket of 64.

Regional events max field of 64 at $100.00

$20 for operating expenses - $1280 to host

$40 for regional payout - - $2560.00 Prize fund

$40 for entry fee & added all around monies - $2560.00

Quarterly funds:

Operating expenses - $12800.00

Regional Tourney payouts - $25600.00

Entry fees for top 10 - $10000.00

Money added to all around fund - $15600.00

Major Event Monies:

Prize money for single event - $150000.00

Money added to All around Championships :

10 regions @ 15600.00 per quarter = $156000.00

Quarterly monies multiplied by 4 (events) = $624000.00

Plus $50000.00 in open spots x's 4(events) = $200000.00

Total all Around Fund = $824000.00

The regionals would not have payouts all the way through the top ten, however points will be accumulated throughout all the events throughout the quarter. Each position is worth the finishing value. ie First place is One point, fourteenth place is Fourteen points. The top ten players with the lowest points at the end of the ten week session wins the entry into the main event.

I think all players should be from their respective region. A player must achieve all of his points in one region, he/she cant play 5 events in one region and five in a different region and combine his points.
 
Give it up guys, it won't work. It is a stupid idea. You already have three people who want to run it their own way.

Now I am your first naysayer. And I will haunt you like you guys did the IPT until it failed.

None of you would get behind the IPT is why it didnt' work. When you face that fact then you can plan for the future.

You want to do something positive for the next couple of years then get behind a tour like the Seminole Florida Pro Tour. Or whatever tour is up north or out west. Start with an existing tour and build from there. Back that tour. Hell, we can't even get any info on that tour. No brackets. Nothing.

There are a lot worse crimes than being a con man. Like murderer, child predator, rapist, wife beater, robber, drug dealer. How many pool players have commintted those crimes? How many have gone to jail for those crimes? You didn't like KT because you were jealous of his money, plain and simple.

Forget the tour. It will never work. Pool players will not pay to watch pool so why should the general public? As for collecting $20 entry and paying out only $10 that is a pipe dream. The players would never do that.

What the hell, at least the Hall of Famers and a few other players made out okay.

Pool is dead. You guys just don't want to admit it.

Jake
 
Why couldn't people look at we all ready have?

Take the more successful tours that are going across the country and use their leadership to form a board for each region (N.E., S.E., N. Central, S. Central, N. W., and S.W.). Most of these tours are run or supported by mid-size sponsors that if brought together would make a great base for a large tour and a powerful tool to lure in larger sponsors. This board would elect a President, Vice President, and staff (The players could also have a vote in the officers in charge after the first season).

The rules, outline, etc.. could be developed by the board by taking these existing tours rules and voting out the parts that are weak and keeping the parts that work strongly.

They would run regional events all year putting back a small percentage from each to go to towards regional and national events. This would keep the entry fees reasonable for all that want to play.

Just my 2 minute thoughts......

(Just don't overlook the Seminole Tribe)

Edit: Didn't see your post Jake ... we seem to think alike a little bit, but pool is far from dead........ :)
 
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jjinfla said:
Give it up guys, it won't work. It is a stupid idea. You already have three people who want to run it their own way.Thanks for the positive feedback

Now I am your first naysayer. And I will haunt you like you guys did the IPT until it failed.Sorry, but I was one of the IPT's biggest supporters.

None of you would get behind the IPT is why it didnt' work. Wrong. Most of us were behind the IPT...but have come to face reality that it probably is finished When you face that fact then you can plan for the future.

You want to do something positive for the next couple of years then get behind a tour like the Seminole Florida Pro Tour. Or whatever tour is up north or out west. Start with an existing tour and build from there. Back that tour. Hell, we can't even get any info on that tour. No brackets. Nothing.There are plenty of regional tours already operating. Just need to get everyone on the same page

There are a lot worse crimes than being a con man. Like murderer, child predator, rapist, wife beater, robber, drug dealer. How many pool players have commintted those crimes? How many have gone to jail for those crimes? You didn't like KT because you were jealous of his money, plain and simple.What does this have to do with the topic at hand? The only problem with the IPT was it was built from the top down. What I'm suggesting is taking the idea, but building it from the bottom, up.

Forget the tour. It will never work. Pool players will not pay to watch pool so why should the general public? As for collecting $20 entry and paying out only $10 that is a pipe dream. The players would never do that.It's really no different than having a top-heavy pay-out. The top ten players are getting an extra grand.

What the hell, at least the Hall of Famers and a few other players made out okay.

Pool is dead. You guys just don't want to admit it.
You say if someone wants to do something positive, then get behind an existing tour. Isn't that what we are talking about? Then you say pool is dead. If that is true, bury your cue stick and take up bowling!

Jake
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Thanks for giving your input!
Steve
 
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