Looking to the future

jjinfla said:
Give it up guys, it won't work. It is a stupid idea. You already have three people who want to run it their own way.

Now I am your first naysayer. And I will haunt you like you guys did the IPT until it failed.

None of you would get behind the IPT is why it didnt' work. When you face that fact then you can plan for the future.

You want to do something positive for the next couple of years then get behind a tour like the Seminole Florida Pro Tour. Or whatever tour is up north or out west. Start with an existing tour and build from there. Back that tour. Hell, we can't even get any info on that tour. No brackets. Nothing.

There are a lot worse crimes than being a con man. Like murderer, child predator, rapist, wife beater, robber, drug dealer. How many pool players have commintted those crimes? How many have gone to jail for those crimes? You didn't like KT because you were jealous of his money, plain and simple.

Forget the tour. It will never work. Pool players will not pay to watch pool so why should the general public? As for collecting $20 entry and paying out only $10 that is a pipe dream. The players would never do that.

What the hell, at least the Hall of Famers and a few other players made out okay.

Pool is dead. You guys just don't want to admit it.

Jake
Click to expand...

Jake,

What is your problem? Why are you so angry? It's our fault the IPT failed? Do you really believe that?

And your last comment, Pool is dead. Tell that to the 40 million people who play every year in the US alone. Or the other 40 million worldwide. If Pool is dead, then so is Golf and Tennis.
 
Watchez
I have never supported the IPT in any way shape or form. I offered my assistance to form a players association designed to be there arbitrarily for the players. Other than assisting several players in several different ways, I have always said that their business model was flawed. Last month I was encouraging Kevin not to quit at this point, obviously he did. Who knows?

Jake,
Who cares what you think. We don't need you anyway. Good luck when you try to get the IPT to stop charging your credit card for the same $20 payment 9 years from now. :rolleyes:

Steve, Jay, and Randy
I will send you some information this weekend for you to review. This won't only work, it can work well as long as egos are pushed aside in exchange for progress.
 
wcrimi said:
I have to disagree on one point.

You are assuming that high quality TV for MS vs. LJJ would have drawn a favorable enough response to generate a large enough audience in the future to gain enough corporate sponsorship to support the high purses of the IPT. I doubt it very much. ESPN is not great, but how much better do you think they could draw if they improved the commentary etc.... Not much. It's a limited viewership and we have to get used to that for now. The purses have to match the potential income. If the economics don'tt work, neither can the tour.
Click to expand...
You make an excellent point, a point that I forgot to make in my previous post. Even if KT hired the best TV producers to create the best-quality TV program that money can buy and broadcasted it on the most viewed channel on primetime, that still does not guarantee an audience for pool.

One of two things can happen. Either the high-quality TV show attracts an audience, or it does not.

If the latter case happens, then at least we would all know that pool is not destined to be part of mainstream America. Pool can still continue to thrive in the distant background like it has been the past 30 or so years, with first place prizes monies averaging $10k per tournament and your one-hour dosage of ESPN2 pool per month. wcrimi is correct, if the economics say that pool should be like it has been, it will be like it always has been.

The problem is that the IPT never gave pool a chance to fail this way, simply due to the IPT's very low-quality TV broadcasts. We still never know what it would have been like if the IPT produced high-quality shows. Would FSN have aired the KOTH series, such that tens of millions more viewers would have watched it (compared to OLN)? Would it have sparked something the way the World Poker Tour on the Travel Channel jump-started poker? Or would we be exactly at the same point we're at now? We just never know.

It is my personal opinion that pool DOES have a place in mainstream America. Jay brought up an interesting statistic (don't know if it's true, but I'll take his word for it). 40 million people play pool in America. I would easily guess that, at least before the poker craze, a lot more Americans have played a rack of pool than a hand of poker. I still believe the potential for pool is out there. An engaging and exciting TV program on pool (with KT NOT in the booth) would unlock that potential. Unfortunately, the IPT has failed miserably at this key point.

Again, it's all about the TV program. Without a high-quality TV program, you won't have an audience. Without an audience, you won't have sponsors. Without the sponsors, you won't have money. And without the money, you won't have a tour. Let me reiterate one last time...it's all about how well you package pool on TV.
 
Blackjack said:
...I have always said that their business model was flawed.
Click to expand...
KT's plan seemed rather simple. Fork over the money to put pool on TV. If you're lucky enough to get an audience, then the sponsors will come to fund the tour. Like I stated in my other posts, where KT failed was getting an audience.

I ask the following questions in all sincerity. What business model do you propose for your tour? What type of prize monies will your tour give out? Do you plan any TV exposure? Will the size and scope of your tour be comparable to the WPBA, or bigger?

jsp <~~~ just another curious pool fan

EDIT: You don't have to answer these questions. Just wanted to know if you wanted to share your "vision" to the public at this time. I understand if you do not. Cheers.
 
Last edited:
jsp said:
KT's plan seemed rather simple. Fork over the money to put pool on TV. If you're lucky enough to get an audience, then the sponsors will come to fund the tour. Like I stated in my other posts, where KT failed was getting an audience.

I ask the following questions in all sincerity. What business model do you propose for your tour? What type of prize monies will your tour give out? Do you plan any TV exposure? Will the size and scope of your tour be comparable to the WPBA, or bigger?

jsp <~~~ just another curious pool fan
Click to expand...


Other tours have failed miserably because they have tried to sell pool as something that it isn't. We aren't golf. We aren't tennis. Stop trying to market it as such. Its pool. What drew you to the game? Guys in nice suits playing high dollar 8 ball? Not likely. Would you rather watch the same guys going at it playing a mundane, restricted form of tournament 9 ball, or would you rather watch Keith McCready talking major $hit in the pit and putting a game together against Lil Jon? What would you watch? Why must we televise "structured tournament 9 ball"? Think outside the box. Think about what drew you to the game and what would hold your attention. What spectacle would cause you to stay at the pool hall and miss dinner? 8 Ball in a lavish hotel with KT flapping his jaws about Shawn Putnum's appetite for pizza? Doubtful. That format couldn't draw flies. It never has and it never will.

Over the past several years I have told everybody that I have talked to that we keep trying to gold plate a turd. Gold plate it all you want, but when you crack it open, its still a turd. I am proposing that we present pool in its barest, true naked form. Pull the veil off of it. Show the pit. Show the backers. Show the winner and the loser - the side bets - everything. That's what makes poker so exciting. Poker is fueled by the human emotion and suspense of the atmosphere. That is what makes them successful. They present it for what it is. We are always trying to portray pool as something that it isn't. Nobody is going to watch or sell a TV program with a bunch of quiet spectators watching people play pool as if they are holding in a fart. Its boring. It doesn't capture your attention. It causes the non-fan to avoid it. Put everything that you have seen in the past and leave it there. That is where it belongs. It has failed miserably every single time.

I am not going to discuss the intricacies of the business model publicly. Unlike others in the past, there will be no dictatorship. No king, no queen. Just because I say something doesn't mean that its my way or the highway. There are people that know more about things than I do. I don't know everything and I won't pretend to. Openmindedness is the key here. The biggest hurdle is trying to get enough people on board to make this a reality. Within our industry people protect their interests at all costs. I am asking us to pool them together. That won't be easy. It requires trust. It also requires people putting past disagreements aside to move forward. Egos need to be checked in at the door. Progress can only be achieved if we abandon this sect mentality and get off of this treadmill we have created for ourselves.

Its not just about money. KT had more money than anyone has had in the past - I said it a long time ago - internal problems would implode his little bubble. It takes more than money. The players have to realize that they will only get out of it what they put into it. Being a billiard professional is a full time job, not a bi-monthly occasion where you show up, hit some balls and pick up a check. It is my long term goal to have an event every week. I know it can be done. Several regional events are doing it now. Attract the right people, employ the right people, the job will get done correctly. Initially, the events should be test marketed in cities like Baltimore, Los Angeles, Chicago, TAIPEI, TOKYO, and MANILA. That's the hot marketbase for pool. Not Reno. Please, stop me when I start making sense.

TV exposure should be directly proportional to the interest generated by the tour. That means that there must be a demand for the product. In the past, tours have done it backwards. Develop a fan base, market the tour and the players and THEN take the product to the media. It should be a well calculated, slow, and deliberate process.

That's basically what I have in mind. Some might hate it. Some may love it. It might not have the $$$ that KT had, but over time it can grow into something comparable to that. I am confident that if the right people come together, this can work. If everybody continues to sit around and watch and wait to see what the IPT is going to do, I'm fine with that too. I'm not trying to compete with them. I'm trying to develop something from within the billiards industry - something that the IPT decided to isolate themselves from.
 
jsp said:
You make an excellent point, a point that I forgot to make in my previous post. Even if KT hired the best TV producers to create the best-quality TV program that money can buy and broadcasted it on the most viewed channel on primetime, that still does not guarantee an audience for pool.

One of two things can happen. Either the high-quality TV show attracts an audience, or it does not.

If the latter case happens, then at least we would all know that pool is not destined to be part of mainstream America. Pool can still continue to thrive in the distant background like it has been the past 30 or so years, with first place prizes monies averaging $10k per tournament and your one-hour dosage of ESPN2 pool per month. wcrimi is correct, if the economics say that pool should be like it has been, it will be like it always has been.

The problem is that the IPT never gave pool a chance to fail this way, simply due to the IPT's very low-quality TV broadcasts. We still never know what it would have been like if the IPT produced high-quality shows. Would FSN have aired the KOTH series, such that tens of millions more viewers would have watched it (compared to OLN)? Would it have sparked something the way the World Poker Tour on the Travel Channel jump-started poker? Or would we be exactly at the same point we're at now? We just never know.

It is my personal opinion that pool DOES have a place in mainstream America. Jay brought up an interesting statistic (don't know if it's true, but I'll take his word for it). 40 million people play pool in America. I would easily guess that, at least before the poker craze, a lot more Americans have played a rack of pool than a hand of poker. I still believe the potential for pool is out there. An engaging and exciting TV program on pool (with KT NOT in the booth) would unlock that potential. Unfortunately, the IPT has failed miserably at this key point.

Again, it's all about the TV program. Without a high-quality TV program, you won't have an audience. Without an audience, you won't have sponsors. Without the sponsors, you won't have money. And without the money, you won't have a tour. Let me reiterate one last time...it's all about how well you package pool on TV.
Click to expand...

With 40 million pool players in the U.S., pool does have the potential for a sizable tv audience. However, with the hundreds of cable channels available for viewers to pick from, OLN/Versus may not have been the best niche to broadcast the IPT tournaments.

Advertising and marketing is crucial to getting the word out to the masses. Of the 40 million American pool players, how many even knew about the IPT? How many knew they could watch the IPT on OLN? IMO, a primary reason why the IPT has failed was due to poor marketing to the mass tv audience.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
With 40 million pool players in the U.S., pool does have the potential for a sizable tv audience. However, with the hundreds of cable channels available for viewers to pick from, OLN/Versus may not have been the best niche to broadcast the IPT tournaments.

Advertising and marketing is crucial to getting the word out to the masses. Of the 40 million American pool players, how many even knew about the IPT? How many knew they could watch the IPT on OLN? IMO, a primary reason why the IPT has failed was due to poor marketing to the mass tv audience.
Click to expand...

OLN was probably a cheap "buy" for Trudeau.
 
I don't disagree, but did you know

Blackjack said:
Other tours have failed miserably because they have tried to sell pool as something that it isn't. We aren't golf. We aren't tennis. Stop trying to market it as such. Its pool. What drew you to the game? Guys in nice suits playing high dollar 8 ball? Not likely. Would you rather watch the same guys going at it playing a mundane, restricted form of tournament 9 ball, or would you rather watch Keith McCready talking major $hit in the pit and putting a game together against Lil Jon? What would you watch? Why must we televise "structured tournament 9 ball"? Think outside the box. Think about what drew you to the game and what would hold your attention. What spectacle would cause you to stay at the pool hall and miss dinner? 8 Ball in a lavish hotel with KT flapping his jaws about Shawn Putnum's appetite for pizza? Doubtful. That format couldn't draw flies. It never has and it never will.

Over the past several years I have told everybody that I have talked to that we keep trying to gold plate a turd. Gold plate it all you want, but when you crack it open, its still a turd. I am proposing that we present pool in its barest, true naked form. Pull the veil off of it. Show the pit. Show the backers. Show the winner and the loser - the side bets - everything. That's what makes poker so exciting. Poker is fueled by the human emotion and suspense of the atmosphere. That is what makes them successful. They present it for what it is. We are always trying to portray pool as something that it isn't. Nobody is going to watch or sell a TV program with a bunch of quiet spectators watching people play pool as if they are holding in a fart. Its boring. It doesn't capture your attention. It causes the non-fan to avoid it. Put everything that you have seen in the past and leave it there. That is where it belongs. It has failed miserably every single time.

I am not going to discuss the intricacies of the business model publicly. Unlike others in the past, there will be no dictatorship. No king, no queen. Just because I say something doesn't mean that its my way or the highway. There are people that know more about things than I do. I don't know everything and I won't pretend to. Openmindedness is the key here. The biggest hurdle is trying to get enough people on board to make this a reality. Within our industry people protect their interests at all costs. I am asking us to pool them together. That won't be easy. It requires trust. It also requires people putting past disagreements aside to move forward. Egos need to be checked in at the door. Progress can only be achieved if we abandon this sect mentality and get off of this treadmill we have created for ourselves.

Its not just about money. KT had more money than anyone has had in the past - I said it a long time ago - internal problems would implode his little bubble. It takes more than money. The players have to realize that they will only get out of it what they put into it. Being a billiard professional is a full time job, not a bi-monthly occasion where you show up, hit some balls and pick up a check. It is my long term goal to have an event every week. I know it can be done. Several regional events are doing it now. Attract the right people, employ the right people, the job will get done correctly. Initially, the events should be test marketed in cities like Baltimore, Los Angeles, Chicago, TAIPEI, TOKYO, and MANILA. That's the hot marketbase for pool. Not Reno. Please, stop me when I start making sense.

TV exposure should be directly proportional to the interest generated by the tour. That means that there must be a demand for the product. In the past, tours have done it backwards. Develop a fan base, market the tour and the players and THEN take the product to the media. It should be a well calculated, slow, and deliberate process.

That's basically what I have in mind. Some might hate it. Some may love it. It might not have the $$$ that KT had, but over time it can grow into something comparable to that. I am confident that if the right people come together, this can work. If everybody continues to sit around and watch and wait to see what the IPT is going to do, I'm fine with that too. I'm not trying to compete with them. I'm trying to develop something from within the billiards industry - something that the IPT decided to isolate themselves from.
Click to expand...

Two years ago there was a filmmaker that was consigned by HBO to attempt a documentary on pool players that would be a no holds barred film on all their personalities, their woofing, their gambling, their drinking and anything else they could film that the filmmaker thought would make an exciting pool story. He followed all the great and not so great players around for days with his crew and filmed the likes of Ronnie, Danny, Incardona, Grady, Keith, Corey, Alex, Cliff, and on and on. I saw them get some great footage that at the time I thought would surely be a great program, probably better than the taxi cab series on HBO or some of there other reality shows. A lot of what you are saying that needs to be shown to get an audience. It seemed a natural. What happened? I have not seen or heard any rumors of what happened or if it is still in the works. I cannot believe HBO wouldn't buy it. Pool on T.V. needs a hook, just like poker got when someone figured out how to secretly show hole cards. Now as each year passes they are also showing all the different personalities, good and bad much to the delight of the t.v. audience including me. They can do the same thing with pool and a good start would have been this HBO special. For the life of me I don't know what happened. Most all t.v. shows and songs for that matter have a hook that makes them successful. Maybe in pool it could be playing a form of "P" pool and the audience knows what players are holding what. Who knows.
 
The Bar Box Shoot Out

This was an eight week series that has been airing on INHD TV. It is the number one HD channel in North America. Only available on cable tho, not on dish.

It is a Reality show based on a group of players who make the U.S. Bar Table Championships their final destination. They began shooting at Derby City, went to Magoos in Tulsa, Ultimate Billiards in Conn., Clicks in Houston, and finally the Sands in Reno.

I am negotiating with them to make the series available in a two set DVD. Regular and HD format. You can still see these shows on INHD. Featured players included Danny Basavich, Charlie Bryant, Vivian Villarreal and Jason Kirkwood. Many other familiar faces on here too.
 
Just a few thoughts. That 40 million number which we've all seen bandied about over the years isn't indicative of much. I could be wrong, but I think this is the number of people who have played at least one game of pool in the last year. As an example of how ludicrous that number really is, I guarantee you that almost every single person in my rather large office would fit into this statistic, but only one of them would ever consider watching it on TV. Put another way, it's like saying that the potential US audience of a TV barbecue competition is 200 million, because about that number of people have eaten at a barbecue once in the last year.

Blackjack, I like your idea of trying to show the dirty side. Hell, the other way hasn't worked. Still, it makes me kinda nervous, because there is a chance it could really turn into a circus. I love this game dearly, but if the general public's perception of us was based on two idiots doing stupid shit in front of a camera, I'd consider it a step backward. That said, I know you have the best interests of the game at heart and would not let it come to that. But it's a blurry line, and we must take care not to cross it. It'll be a long trip back.

In response to Steve's and Scott's suggestion of the format, I think we have to move away from the pyramid model. The amateurs won't be willing to subsidize the pros' trips to the big dance for very long. Hosting a $100 tournament where only $40 gets put into the purse won't last. A prize fund of $2,500 and 64 players? Assuming you have a typical prize structure, 1st place is going to get about 4:1 on his money. It won't take the majority of players long to realize they are losing a fortune week after week. I think a player would have to average a 3rd place finish in something like this to break even after expenses. That's not sustainable - and the problem with these schemes is that the whole thing breaks down once the bottom level of the pyramid runs for the hills.

I realize I am being negative and I don't mean to be. I am going to think about this tonight, and tomorrow I will try to be more constructive. :).

- Steve
 
Blackjack said:
Other tours have failed miserably because they have tried to sell pool as something that it isn't. We aren't golf. We aren't tennis. Stop trying to market it as such. Its pool. What drew you to the game? Guys in nice suits playing high dollar 8 ball? Not likely. Would you rather watch the same guys going at it playing a mundane, restricted form of tournament 9 ball, or would you rather watch Keith McCready talking major $hit in the pit and putting a game together against Lil Jon? What would you watch? Why must we televise "structured tournament 9 ball"? Think outside the box. Think about what drew you to the game and what would hold your attention. What spectacle would cause you to stay at the pool hall and miss dinner? 8 Ball in a lavish hotel with KT flapping his jaws about Shawn Putnum's appetite for pizza? Doubtful. That format couldn't draw flies. It never has and it never will.

Over the past several years I have told everybody that I have talked to that we keep trying to gold plate a turd. Gold plate it all you want, but when you crack it open, its still a turd. I am proposing that we present pool in its barest, true naked form. Pull the veil off of it. Show the pit. Show the backers. Show the winner and the loser - the side bets - everything. That's what makes poker so exciting. Poker is fueled by the human emotion and suspense of the atmosphere. That is what makes them successful. They present it for what it is. We are always trying to portray pool as something that it isn't. Nobody is going to watch or sell a TV program with a bunch of quiet spectators watching people play pool as if they are holding in a fart. Its boring. It doesn't capture your attention. It causes the non-fan to avoid it. Put everything that you have seen in the past and leave it there. That is where it belongs. It has failed miserably every single time.

I am not going to discuss the intricacies of the business model publicly. Unlike others in the past, there will be no dictatorship. No king, no queen. Just because I say something doesn't mean that its my way or the highway. There are people that know more about things than I do. I don't know everything and I won't pretend to. Openmindedness is the key here. The biggest hurdle is trying to get enough people on board to make this a reality. Within our industry people protect their interests at all costs. I am asking us to pool them together. That won't be easy. It requires trust. It also requires people putting past disagreements aside to move forward. Egos need to be checked in at the door. Progress can only be achieved if we abandon this sect mentality and get off of this treadmill we have created for ourselves.

Its not just about money. KT had more money than anyone has had in the past - I said it a long time ago - internal problems would implode his little bubble. It takes more than money. The players have to realize that they will only get out of it what they put into it. Being a billiard professional is a full time job, not a bi-monthly occasion where you show up, hit some balls and pick up a check. It is my long term goal to have an event every week. I know it can be done. Several regional events are doing it now. Attract the right people, employ the right people, the job will get done correctly. Initially, the events should be test marketed in cities like Baltimore, Los Angeles, Chicago, TAIPEI, TOKYO, and MANILA. That's the hot marketbase for pool. Not Reno. Please, stop me when I start making sense.

TV exposure should be directly proportional to the interest generated by the tour. That means that there must be a demand for the product. In the past, tours have done it backwards. Develop a fan base, market the tour and the players and THEN take the product to the media. It should be a well calculated, slow, and deliberate process.

That's basically what I have in mind. Some might hate it. Some may love it. It might not have the $$$ that KT had, but over time it can grow into something comparable to that. I am confident that if the right people come together, this can work. If everybody continues to sit around and watch and wait to see what the IPT is going to do, I'm fine with that too. I'm not trying to compete with them. I'm trying to develop something from within the billiards industry - something that the IPT decided to isolate themselves from.
Click to expand...

It is intresting that you bring up the question," what brought you to the game"?

This past weekend we were in a fairly small town, Laffayette La, for a Fast Eddies monthly event. Laffayette is as I said small, but a nice plalce with great people.

We decided to hold a $500 buy-in ring game and it went okay. Not what we expected, but okay with 8 entrants.

At about midnight on a Friday night we were down to two players and with $8000 in chips out, Gary Abood had $3800 and Jui Lung Chen had $4200. Almost dead even.

To get to the point, there were about 250-300 spectators at this point and only one other table going. There are a total of 32 tables to give you an idea as to the size of the place.

Most of these people didn't Cliff from Hillbilly from Gary from Scotty Townsend or whoever, but they were eating it up and begged us to come back.

They were quiet and respectful and applauded every win and every tough shot. When I looked around and saw only one table going, I was very surprised but, very happy with audience and their invovement.

I'm with you David, I don't think Guys in suits is going to sell pool either and never have. Pool has not been big on TV since Tom Armstrong put the Fats and Mosconi thing together. Pool is not an ordinary sport and does not attract like ordinary sports.
 
So your saying HBO did not buy it and it was sold to hdtv(whatever that is). And how to we see it on cable.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
With 40 million pool players in the U.S., pool does have the potential for a sizable tv audience. However, with the hundreds of cable channels available for viewers to pick from, OLN/Versus may not have been the best niche to broadcast the IPT tournaments.

Advertising and marketing is crucial to getting the word out to the masses. Of the 40 million American pool players, how many even knew about the IPT? How many knew they could watch the IPT on OLN? IMO, a primary reason why the IPT has failed was due to poor marketing to the mass tv audience.
Click to expand...

You know pool is strange -someone once wrote that if you offered the average golfer an SUV or 10 strokes off their game, a good percentage would take the 10 strokes but if you offered the average league player a big improvement or a six pack, just about everyone would take the 6-pack.

Of the 40 million about 39 million just play and dont know a thing or care to know a thing. These are the guys who are playing with your $2000.00 custom cue, 6 tables over, when you come back from the men's room. They dont even know that people take the game serious or have their own cues. All sticks are house sticks. They are oblivious to it as a Sport at all. Most are not potential fans Im afraid. Ive never understood it.
 
Nostroke said:
You know pool is strange -someone once wrote that if you offered the average golfer an SUV or 10 strokes off their game, a good percentage would take the 10 strokes but if you offered the average league player a big improvement or a six pack, just about everyone would take the 6-pack.

Of the 40 million about 39 million just play and dont know a thing or care to know a thing. These are the guys who are playing with your $2000.00 custom cue, 6 tables over, when you come back from the men's room. They dont even know that people take the game serious or have their own cues. All sticks are house sticks. They are oblivious to it as a Sport at all. Most are not potential fans Im afraid. Ive never understood it.
Click to expand...

Good point.

When the bets get high enough though, not all, but many perk up and pay attention a little more closely.
 
Blackjack said:
Other tours have failed miserably because they have tried to sell pool as something that it isn't. We aren't golf. We aren't tennis. Stop trying to market it as such. Its pool. What drew you to the game? Guys in nice suits playing high dollar 8 ball? Not likely. Would you rather watch the same guys going at it playing a mundane, restricted form of tournament 9 ball, or would you rather watch Keith McCready talking major $hit in the pit and putting a game together against Lil Jon? What would you watch? Why must we televise "structured tournament 9 ball"? Think outside the box. Think about what drew you to the game and what would hold your attention. What spectacle would cause you to stay at the pool hall and miss dinner? 8 Ball in a lavish hotel with KT flapping his jaws about Shawn Putnum's appetite for pizza? Doubtful. That format couldn't draw flies. It never has and it never will.

Over the past several years I have told everybody that I have talked to that we keep trying to gold plate a turd. Gold plate it all you want, but when you crack it open, its still a turd. I am proposing that we present pool in its barest, true naked form. Pull the veil off of it. Show the pit. Show the backers. Show the winner and the loser - the side bets - everything. That's what makes poker so exciting. Poker is fueled by the human emotion and suspense of the atmosphere. That is what makes them successful. They present it for what it is. We are always trying to portray pool as something that it isn't. Nobody is going to watch or sell a TV program with a bunch of quiet spectators watching people play pool as if they are holding in a fart. Its boring. It doesn't capture your attention. It causes the non-fan to avoid it. Put everything that you have seen in the past and leave it there. That is where it belongs. It has failed miserably every single time.

I am not going to discuss the intricacies of the business model publicly. Unlike others in the past, there will be no dictatorship. No king, no queen. Just because I say something doesn't mean that its my way or the highway. There are people that know more about things than I do. I don't know everything and I won't pretend to. Openmindedness is the key here. The biggest hurdle is trying to get enough people on board to make this a reality. Within our industry people protect their interests at all costs. I am asking us to pool them together. That won't be easy. It requires trust. It also requires people putting past disagreements aside to move forward. Egos need to be checked in at the door. Progress can only be achieved if we abandon this sect mentality and get off of this treadmill we have created for ourselves.

Its not just about money. KT had more money than anyone has had in the past - I said it a long time ago - internal problems would implode his little bubble. It takes more than money. The players have to realize that they will only get out of it what they put into it. Being a billiard professional is a full time job, not a bi-monthly occasion where you show up, hit some balls and pick up a check. It is my long term goal to have an event every week. I know it can be done. Several regional events are doing it now. Attract the right people, employ the right people, the job will get done correctly. Initially, the events should be test marketed in cities like Baltimore, Los Angeles, Chicago, TAIPEI, TOKYO, and MANILA. That's the hot marketbase for pool. Not Reno. Please, stop me when I start making sense.

TV exposure should be directly proportional to the interest generated by the tour. That means that there must be a demand for the product. In the past, tours have done it backwards. Develop a fan base, market the tour and the players and THEN take the product to the media. It should be a well calculated, slow, and deliberate process.

That's basically what I have in mind. Some might hate it. Some may love it. It might not have the $$$ that KT had, but over time it can grow into something comparable to that. I am confident that if the right people come together, this can work. If everybody continues to sit around and watch and wait to see what the IPT is going to do, I'm fine with that too. I'm not trying to compete with them. I'm trying to develop something from within the billiards industry - something that the IPT decided to isolate themselves from.
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No doubt a Keith vs Gypsy match is going to be a better show than a Jeremy Jones Thorston Hohmann but i think part of pools intrigue is that it is practically a cult and you kinda have to be "in the know" in order to enjoy these characters and get the inside on who's backing who and how much and what happened last week, who air-barrelled who etc. Once they start printing a program for everyone, most of that feel will be gone IMHO. Just a thought im too tired too fully develop now.
 
What concerns me here is that most of you guys are thinking from a US perspective. You need to decide if you simply want to create another US tour or an international professional tour. Understandable of course but billiards has proven its potential abroad and I think what pool needs is a global tour like the IPT attempted.

IMO the IPT's biggest mistake was to allienate the current pool community, the WPA (not entirely the IPT's fault) and many other tours by critisising them and declaring their ambition to own pool. The other mistake of course was lavish prize funds which they hoped they could fund from qualifiers.

The WPA hasn't been ripping up trees in recent years BUT there is still a decent structure in place. We have (or did have!) 3 pretty decent pool tours in Asia, N.America, and Europe (UPA,San Miguel, and Euro Tour). During the IPT qualifier debate it was often suggested that other tours could become feeder tours to the IPT instead of the insane entires/qualifiers they created. I asked the Euro Tour if they would have been open to this and I got a positive response. I know the San Miguel (renamed now?) and the Euro TOur have excellent and growing relationships with EuroSport and Star Sports and some of the UPA events (BCA Open/World Summit) are shown on ESPN. IMO much of the work has been done, what pool lacks is a top tier world class professional tour. What needs to be done is:

1) The US has some fantastic events but the UPA tour is currently weak. If you took the best 6 tournaments in the USA and made them into a US tour you would have the greatest regional tour in the world. The UPA seemed to get close to acheiving this with the US Open,BCA Open, World Summit, Valley Forge, etc.

2) Each of the 3 regional tours (Euro Tour, UPA and San Miguel) contribute a % of each entry fee to all their tournaments throught the year to fund 2 international tour events each.

This would create a 6 tournament international tour with 2 tournaments in each region, you could even start with 1 in each region if you wanted to test the water. If the euro tour contributed just $50 from every entry it would create about $75,000 in added money. Add to this revenue from open qualifiers and TV and other sponsors currently in place and you have the makings for a pretty good international tour. The main difference being the prize money for each event is whatever is generated.

The top 32 players from each regional tour would be guaranteed spots and the other 32 spots could be given to qualifiers and possibly some wild cards if it helped ratings. This way everyone has a chance, if you have already earnt the right to be a top player you would get a spot and if you was a top player who for whatever reason wasn't currently ranked you would still have a chance to win a spot through a qualifier.

I guess this is what the WPA should be doing, after all each one of these tours are sanctioned by them. If you could get matchroom to back such a tour and replace its world pool league/masters etc. we really would have a tour.

Sorry if this was long.
 
The APA is what's happening in pool.

They are doing it right - take a lesson from them.

The only people who are interested in a money match are the players in the match, their backers, and maybe a half dozen bystanders.

After the IPT fiasco you will now have even fewer people following the pros. People are also getting tired of Allison and Karen in the finals all the time. Time for them to drop the seeding.
 
TheOne said:
What concerns me here is that most of you guys are thinking from a US perspective. You need to decide if you simply want to create another US tour or an international professional tour. Understandable of course but billiards has proven its potential abroad and I think what pool needs is a global tour like the IPT attempted.

IMO the IPT's biggest mistake was to allienate the current pool community, the WPA (not entirely the IPT's fault) and many other tours by critisising them and declaring their ambition to own pool. The other mistake of course was lavish prize funds which they hoped they could fund from qualifiers.

The WPA hasn't been ripping up trees in recent years BUT there is still a decent structure in place. We have (or did have!) 3 pretty decent pool tours in Asia, N.America, and Europe (UPA,San Miguel, and Euro Tour). During the IPT qualifier debate it was often suggested that other tours could become feeder tours to the IPT instead of the insane entires/qualifiers they created. I asked the Euro Tour if they would have been open to this and I got a positive response. I know the San Miguel (renamed now?) and the Euro TOur have excellent and growing relationships with EuroSport and Star Sports and some of the UPA events (BCA Open/World Summit) are shown on ESPN. IMO much of the work has been done, what pool lacks is a top tier world class professional tour. What needs to be done is:

1) The US has some fantastic events but the UPA tour is currently weak. If you took the best 6 tournaments in the USA and made them into a US tour you would have the greatest regional tour in the world. The UPA seemed to get close to acheiving this with the US Open,BCA Open, World Summit, Valley Forge, etc.

2) Each of the 3 regional tours (Euro Tour, UPA and San Miguel) contribute a % of each entry fee to all their tournaments throught the year to fund 2 international tour events each.

This would create a 6 tournament international tour with 2 tournaments in each region, you could even start with 1 in each region if you wanted to test the water. If the euro tour contributed just $50 from every entry it would create about $75,000 in added money. Add to this revenue from open qualifiers and TV and other sponsors currently in place and you have the makings for a pretty good international tour. The main difference being the prize money for each event is whatever is generated.

The top 32 players from each regional tour would be guaranteed spots and the other 32 spots could be given to qualifiers and possibly some wild cards if it helped ratings. This way everyone has a chance, if you have already earnt the right to be a top player you would get a spot and if you was a top player who for whatever reason wasn't currently ranked you would still have a chance to win a spot through a qualifier.

I guess this is what the WPA should be doing, after all each one of these tours are sanctioned by them. If you could get matchroom to back such a tour and replace its world pool league/masters etc. we really would have a tour.

Sorry if this was long.
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Craig - it may have been long, but you hit the bullseye! This has been my point all along. The resources are there, but they are operating as separate tours and getting absolutely nowhere. As I said in the earlier post, they protect their interests at all costs. What I mean by this is that if I am running my own tour and I talk to TD X and ask them about their sponsorship and who their contacts are - they get apprehensive and defensive about discussing the subject. The belief is that if I talk to them that next year I will be getting a portion of their cut. That is why nobody wants to unify, but with unification comes the benefit of having more money to work with. With more money there will be bigger payouts.

Diluting the tour several regional tours would not work because if we have 9 tours it will split the money 9 ways. That's old thinking and it won't work.

There are regional tours in place already that are well run and well organized. Why try to create something that would damage those tours and adversely affect their livelihood? Instead, offer them a piece of the tour. This takes care of Jay's 36 investors that he spoke about. I bet you I can get 40+. Old thinking is that annoying mentality of "my tour, my players, my money". That thinking needs to be changed to "Our tour, our players, our money". Unless that attitude is adopted, things will stay the same. I said that 12 years ago, and I am still saying that now. The major error that Kevin made was when he isolated the IPT and said it was "his tour". It is and then again it isn't. Without players you don't have a tour. Every stride forward needs to be made for the good of the entire sport. The BCA doesn't understand that concept either. They have abandoned their usefullness in exchange for an annual trade show. The WPA is also going to be a tough sell due to what has happened over the past year an a half. It will take a lot of hard work, but I am sure that if they are talking to someone that understands their mission and purpose, they will be more than eager to listen.
 
I feel like there's an 800-lb gorilla in the room that nobody's talking about: the IPT was going great until KT STOPPED PAYING THE PLAYERS!!! Most of the posts in this thread say "the IPT failed because of x, y, and z", but the more accurate thing to say would be "I think the IPT wasn't as good as it could have been because of x, y, and z." The IPT failed BECAUSE KT DIDN'T HAVE THE BUDGET he claimed to have! If everyone had been paid promptly at Reno, and the next umpteen tournaments KT claimed to ALREADY HAVE THE MONEY FOR had gone off as scheduled as well, this thing really would have had time to gain TV exposure, improve on some shortcomings, secure some more main-stream sponsorships, and maybe really be the tour the pool world has waited for. But it failed, not because of the concept, or the approach, or who they alienated, or any of the reasons mentioned. It failed because KT was LYING THE WHOLE TIME about HOW MUCH MONEY he had to get this thing off the ground. If he'd had the money he claimed, we'd still be excited about this tour's potential instead of trying to figure out what to do about its failure.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
I feel like there's an 800-lb gorilla in the room that nobody's talking about: the IPT was going great until KT STOPPED PAYING THE PLAYERS!!! Most of the posts in this thread say "the IPT failed because of x, y, and z", but the more accurate thing to say would be "I think the IPT wasn't as good as it could have been because of x, y, and z." The IPT failed BECAUSE KT DIDN'T HAVE THE BUDGET he claimed to have! If everyone had been paid promptly at Reno, and the next umpteen tournaments KT claimed to ALREADY HAVE THE MONEY FOR had gone off as scheduled as well, this thing really would have had time to gain TV exposure, improve on some shortcomings, secure some more main-stream sponsorships, and maybe really be the tour the pool world has waited for. But it failed, not because of the concept, or the approach, or who they alienated, or any of the reasons mentioned. It failed because KT was LYING THE WHOLE TIME about HOW MUCH MONEY he had to get this thing off the ground. If he'd had the money he claimed, we'd still be excited about this tour's potential instead of trying to figure out what to do about its failure.

-Andrew
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I agree Andrew but the points I raised are related. You can't simply have a tour that is funded by a sugar daddy, it needs to be sustainable so that it survives on its own if that person ver pulls the plug. IMO what he did wrong was fix the prize money at excessive amounts without a clue what they would be able to raise via qualifiers. If the WPA and the IPT hadn't let ego's get in the way then maybe the IPT could have used the current pool structure to fund the prize money and also maybe build on the relationships and sponsors that pool already had. I think the WPA was as much to blame as KT for this btw.
 
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