just wondering how you guys feel about this. with all the new hi tech shafts available today, it makes shooting with english much easier and with less angle compensation. i personally was linited to draw and follow until i bought a predator shaft. now, when i am out and have to pick up a bar stick, i am pretty much limited to not using any sidespin, unless its a close shot of course. i wish i learned on a normal shaft before i switched but thats in the past. i look at all the greats of times past and of today that shoot with normal shafts and i have a lot more respect for those guys. how do you guys feel?
low deflection shaft respect
- Thread starter Ant812
- Start date
i've been playing with meucci's for around 14 years and i just recently bought a predator cue, and i'll tell you, i'm haveing a really hard time getting used either the lower deflection (not emparting as much throw) or the balance point. not really sure, but its been having a major affect on my ability to make the harder cut shots that i think i previously depended on the deflectin to help throw it in. or maybe i just suck. probably the latter. 
I prefer a whippier shaft myself
Intersting, your post.
I started playing with a Predator 314 after 6 months or so. After a year, I decided to put it down and learn about being able to compensate and adjust to squirt/deflection, etc. I learned a lot. I also was forced to focus on the "hit," following through, smoothness of stroke, etc.
At first it was hard, going back to a regular deflection shaft. But in the end, it made me a more... complet (?) player? I learned a lot. I had to.
I might even suggest going to a regular-deflection shaft and shooting with that for a while. An old mentor of mine told me once (after I had complained about losing a tournament on a very poor bar table) that a good player with adapt to any situation. I hated him for saying it at the time, but he was more right than my damaged ego was willing to admit.
I started playing with a Predator 314 after 6 months or so. After a year, I decided to put it down and learn about being able to compensate and adjust to squirt/deflection, etc. I learned a lot. I also was forced to focus on the "hit," following through, smoothness of stroke, etc.
At first it was hard, going back to a regular deflection shaft. But in the end, it made me a more... complet (?) player? I learned a lot. I had to.
I might even suggest going to a regular-deflection shaft and shooting with that for a while. An old mentor of mine told me once (after I had complained about losing a tournament on a very poor bar table) that a good player with adapt to any situation. I hated him for saying it at the time, but he was more right than my damaged ego was willing to admit.
wrong
Wrong, plain and simple. The more "whippy" a shaft is, the
less squirt it produces. The shaft's ability to bend causes it
to get out of the way, instead of stiffly pushing the cue ball
off the line of the shot. Why do you think predator is
hollowing out their shafts, and replacing the area with a
lighter weight, and more flexible material? And, it's really
sad they let shafts out of the "factory" with defective glue, but
that's another story.
I wish folks would stop repeating the false rumors about
Meucci.
belmicah said:
Wrong, plain and simple. The more "whippy" a shaft is, the
less squirt it produces. The shaft's ability to bend causes it
to get out of the way, instead of stiffly pushing the cue ball
off the line of the shot. Why do you think predator is
hollowing out their shafts, and replacing the area with a
lighter weight, and more flexible material? And, it's really
sad they let shafts out of the "factory" with defective glue, but
that's another story.
I wish folks would stop repeating the false rumors about
Meucci.
Ask any golfer...that's exactly the point of buying better equipment, to minimize the need to focus on the myriad a equipment shortcomings that cloud the mind of the player as they try to overcome the thoroughly difficult pursuit of a good mechanical method?StevenPWaldon said:
So, you are saying to really understand the game, you must play with inferior equipment and waste time (years?) figuring out how to make that inferior equipment work before moving on to better equipment that requires little or none of that effort? All the while, undermining good mechanics to overcome the shortcomings of the equipment.StevenPWaldon said:
From your previous statements, inferior equipment is the method to learning the game. It is rationalized that a good player will be able to overcome those shortcomings and continue their good play. I have a prepatory question, why burden a good player with fruitless exercise in learning how to play well with inferior equipment?StevenPWaldon said:
mosconiac said:
The best players in the world use blades....even those with cavity backs will go back to them now and then for practice....cause the best players only need the sweet spot of a dime - they hit the same place on the club every time.....Tiger uses blades, and he dominates everyone (not a big Tiger fan, and it pains me to admit it)
The low deflection/high deflection stuff is just like the blade/cavity back arguement.....very high quality cues come in both, truly great players can win with either, and it's simply a matter of choice - not better or worse....I'm a low handicap with blades, and I got a buddy who is scratch and plays cavity backs......he doesn't beat me because of the clubs - he plays 3 days a week and I'm luck to play once.....hell, with a lot of practice, I still might not beat him
While you don't necessarily have to go back in time, there is value in learning to play with all kinds of equipment so you can really appreciate the value of each....my two cents...
mosconiac said:
I think Steve was suggesting the player become familiar with other equipment so that in the future, should the need arise, he could play with someone else's cue, or a wallini. Such as Wu had to do when the airlines lost his cue. Its happened to me, and I'm sure others many times. Its an expansion of your experience in playing, not a limitation or waste of time.
And BTW, I wouldn't necessarily call a shaft from a custom maker inferior equipment.
some another points about "super low deflection" shafts
First, I'd like to state that I'm not advising the use of super-stiff
shafts that produce squirt. I'm just pointing out that there are
benefits, to somewhat counter the use of the term "inferior".
A long time ago, on an instructional video, I saw a shot called
"the deflection" shot. It sort of blew me away at the time, since
it was so hard not only to execute, but also to determine why
it worked. For those of you familiar with Bert Kinister, it is
shot #13 from the 60 minute 9-ball workout. Basically it is
a way to create an angle for 3-rail position back to the center
of the table, from a straight in shot to the corner. In this case,
the deflection in the cue stick is used as a tool, to provide an
ability to use the deflection as a benefit.
Also, it is possible to get more draw from the cue ball, since
the cue ball will be deflected upwards, which causes less
friction from the table surface, that wears off the backspin on
the cue ball as it travels to the object ball. This effect becomes
more useful as the distance from the cue ball to object ball increases.
In any case, I wanted to share this information with you folks.
First, I'd like to state that I'm not advising the use of super-stiff
shafts that produce squirt. I'm just pointing out that there are
benefits, to somewhat counter the use of the term "inferior".
A long time ago, on an instructional video, I saw a shot called
"the deflection" shot. It sort of blew me away at the time, since
it was so hard not only to execute, but also to determine why
it worked. For those of you familiar with Bert Kinister, it is
shot #13 from the 60 minute 9-ball workout. Basically it is
a way to create an angle for 3-rail position back to the center
of the table, from a straight in shot to the corner. In this case,
the deflection in the cue stick is used as a tool, to provide an
ability to use the deflection as a benefit.
Also, it is possible to get more draw from the cue ball, since
the cue ball will be deflected upwards, which causes less
friction from the table surface, that wears off the backspin on
the cue ball as it travels to the object ball. This effect becomes
more useful as the distance from the cue ball to object ball increases.
In any case, I wanted to share this information with you folks.
I think there are two sides to this (if not more). But it seems that there are two groups of people that like low-deflection shafts. One group who has played with standard maple and has taken the time to learn good mechanics. And the second group who buys a low-deflection shaft because everyone says that they "need" one but does not have enough knowledge to even understand what deflection really is.
For the first group I have respect for their choice in equiptment since they already know and understand the basics and what they are looking for in their equiptment. For the second group I have pity because I do feel they are handicapping themselves by not learning the basics and trying to take shortcuts in learning the finer aspects of pool. It is like you said, going back to a bar cue after shooting with a low-deflection shaft for so long would be really hard because.
As far as the golf equiptment argument, I can get the best equiptment out there but that still doesnt mean that I can drive a ball 100 yards or get 3 rail position on the next ball.
As you can tell, I am a fan of good old maple shaft. I believe that having a quality maple shaft cant be beat. But remember "Quality" is the optimal word. There are crappy maple shafts out there also.
For the first group I have respect for their choice in equiptment since they already know and understand the basics and what they are looking for in their equiptment. For the second group I have pity because I do feel they are handicapping themselves by not learning the basics and trying to take shortcuts in learning the finer aspects of pool. It is like you said, going back to a bar cue after shooting with a low-deflection shaft for so long would be really hard because.
As far as the golf equiptment argument, I can get the best equiptment out there but that still doesnt mean that I can drive a ball 100 yards or get 3 rail position on the next ball.
As you can tell, I am a fan of good old maple shaft. I believe that having a quality maple shaft cant be beat. But remember "Quality" is the optimal word. There are crappy maple shafts out there also.
StevenPWaldon said:
Thats why i stopped using predator shafts and now use a conventional shaft. i had the same thing happen to me (about the tourney thing)
mosconiac said:
I think that the real point of the original statement was to learn the basics with standard equiptment. I completely agree with this. If your just starting to learn pool, you don't want to shoot with a south-west cue or a low-deflection shaft. You want to try out a variety and learn how to play and shoot. THEN as you get better and know what you like, to try other cues and other shaft options.
Nothing is funnier than going to a pool hall and having a perdator-junkie shoot with a regular cue and then blame the cue for their missed shots. Its funny now many times I hear "ohh if I had my predator I would have made that shot". Its not the cue that made the person miss, it is their lack of knowledge and skill.
In the end though, no one is going to convince a maple fan that low-defelction shafts are better or a Predator fan that maple shafts are superior. For the people that are "on the fence" on the matter, try both out. If you are a beginer, learn on standard equiptment then you can change later. But dont assume that standard maple is "inferior" or that a low-deflection shaft will automatically make you a better player.
Persoanlly, I never try and convnice or talk someone into using anything. I just tell them what has worked for me and the best thing they can do is try them out themselves and find what works best for them. I use a 2nd gen. Z shaft and that is what works best for me after trying many different shafts. I have had many different pool cues with many different shafts and after many years I have finally found what works for ME. JMHO.
BVal
BVal
I love bashing these special shafts. It's like people just want the easy way out and dont want to learn how to play with thier regular playing shaft.
I've owned 2 of the old block letter Meucci Originals, and the only one that had a whippy shaft, was one that had a 12mm shaft. And even that one I could use to play with.
I've also owned a Schon, 2- Espiritu's, a 5280, a Viking, and several custom cues. Not once have I even thought about putting a X-shaft,314,Z shaft, or whatever shaft on them.
I learned to adapt to how the cue played.
I like to put it this way. Why would I spend 400$ to several thousand dollars, on a custom cue, and then turn around and put a predator shaft on the cue?
I would hope that Gilbert, Bludworth, Scruggs, Espiritu, JossWest, SouthWest, Kikel, Coker, BlackBoar, Josey, and many other custom cue makers, know a thing or two about making a damn good playing shaft for thier cues.
I've owned 2 of the old block letter Meucci Originals, and the only one that had a whippy shaft, was one that had a 12mm shaft. And even that one I could use to play with.
I've also owned a Schon, 2- Espiritu's, a 5280, a Viking, and several custom cues. Not once have I even thought about putting a X-shaft,314,Z shaft, or whatever shaft on them.
I learned to adapt to how the cue played.
I like to put it this way. Why would I spend 400$ to several thousand dollars, on a custom cue, and then turn around and put a predator shaft on the cue?
I would hope that Gilbert, Bludworth, Scruggs, Espiritu, JossWest, SouthWest, Kikel, Coker, BlackBoar, Josey, and many other custom cue makers, know a thing or two about making a damn good playing shaft for thier cues.
Having played with a predator 314, and 314 II and also The Mezz WD 700 shaft, there is a definate differance, but you must have good Mechanics to really see a differance.
I just recently traded my mezz for a purple heart Schuler. Tonight was the first time I have played with a Schuler and I have to say Ive been missing something when looking for a cue. I had no problems whatsoever adjusting.
I purchased the Mezz because I thought it would be the best of both worlds, 314 and solid Maple. it was a really good shooting cue but the taper was a bit unconfortable to me. The Schuler just fits me, and the ability to move the ball around with hardly any effort is amazing to me.
I agree with alot of the players out there that go for the Pred shats and cues, as well as alot of Laminated or whatever shafts, Like myself Im sure some of this people used to own cues that just played differnt than todays maple shaft cues. and the newer Shafts just dont cut it. Id recomend The Mezz WD700 if you like a shaft 12.5mm and have a good straight stroke. For me on the other hand I like the schuler shaft, it feels good and Im stroking straighter if that makes any sense. I remember a year or two ago someone aquired the flooring from an old bowling alley and was commenting on just how good the shafts were, and the wood was very old, I believe the growth rings in todays maple isnt tight enough to produce the playability that was there before. Predator must have seen this comming, as I remeber in 95 or 96 when someone showed this ugly black stick, and tried to sell it to me for 600$ I thought that was a joke, It did feel pretty good but 600$? I had a good Meucci at the time and there was no way that cue would generate the spin my Meucci did, as a matter of fact I let him hit with the Meucci while I hit with the Pred, He offered me 1,000$ on the spot for that cue, I got 1000 and the pred. after a race to 5. Never liked it, and Ive been on the hunt for a cue to replace that Meucci every since.
sorry for being long winded, but as a player watching the Maple shaft quality go to S**t over the past 11 years or so is a real concern.
SPINDOKTOR
I just recently traded my mezz for a purple heart Schuler. Tonight was the first time I have played with a Schuler and I have to say Ive been missing something when looking for a cue. I had no problems whatsoever adjusting.
I purchased the Mezz because I thought it would be the best of both worlds, 314 and solid Maple. it was a really good shooting cue but the taper was a bit unconfortable to me. The Schuler just fits me, and the ability to move the ball around with hardly any effort is amazing to me.
I agree with alot of the players out there that go for the Pred shats and cues, as well as alot of Laminated or whatever shafts, Like myself Im sure some of this people used to own cues that just played differnt than todays maple shaft cues. and the newer Shafts just dont cut it. Id recomend The Mezz WD700 if you like a shaft 12.5mm and have a good straight stroke. For me on the other hand I like the schuler shaft, it feels good and Im stroking straighter if that makes any sense. I remember a year or two ago someone aquired the flooring from an old bowling alley and was commenting on just how good the shafts were, and the wood was very old, I believe the growth rings in todays maple isnt tight enough to produce the playability that was there before. Predator must have seen this comming, as I remeber in 95 or 96 when someone showed this ugly black stick, and tried to sell it to me for 600$ I thought that was a joke, It did feel pretty good but 600$? I had a good Meucci at the time and there was no way that cue would generate the spin my Meucci did, as a matter of fact I let him hit with the Meucci while I hit with the Pred, He offered me 1,000$ on the spot for that cue, I got 1000 and the pred. after a race to 5. Never liked it, and Ive been on the hunt for a cue to replace that Meucci every since.
sorry for being long winded, but as a player watching the Maple shaft quality go to S**t over the past 11 years or so is a real concern.
SPINDOKTOR
Spin,
Even if I went back to a production cue, It would probably be something like a Schon. I've always loved the way thier cue's play, and thier shafts all play the same.
But, I think if you want a good playing shaft, you need to have a a custom cue maker, cut you one to fit to your cue, even if its a production cue.
They seem to be the only ones left who have decent stocks of maple for shafts.
Even if I went back to a production cue, It would probably be something like a Schon. I've always loved the way thier cue's play, and thier shafts all play the same.
But, I think if you want a good playing shaft, you need to have a a custom cue maker, cut you one to fit to your cue, even if its a production cue.
They seem to be the only ones left who have decent stocks of maple for shafts.
Custom cue maker's will likely have the better shaft material out there, but overall the wood simply isnt as good as it once was.
I myself would like to have a shaft made out of Birch, I use to like chewing on the bark as a kid, you know the wood looked really white after it had dried, I cant help but wonder how a shaft would play made out of Birch.
SPINDOKTOR
I myself would like to have a shaft made out of Birch, I use to like chewing on the bark as a kid, you know the wood looked really white after it had dried, I cant help but wonder how a shaft would play made out of Birch.
SPINDOKTOR
does anyone know why the quality of shaft wood has droped?