low-squirt cue info and poll

[jingle]

Do you guys have any comments on these or have others to offer?

Thanks,
Dave

I used Predator shafts for more than 5 years, and currently have an OB-1 that mostly collects dust in my case. I don't know why, but for me the cueball path & speed/distance after contacting the OB is more predictable when I use standard maple shafts. This results in better position play for me. (I know, this makes no sense to me either, but I have years of experience with each shaft and this is what I perceive to be the case)That being said, I think I can make more "spectacular" or difficult shots more often using low-squirt shafts. The jury is still out as to which might be better for my game, but so far I prefer the more consistent position play I get using standard shafts.

 

[dr_dave]

That would be my guess, but it is a highly uneducated opinion.

However one interesting thing to consider, if it is true that nearly all pros pivot in some way to apply English, usually with a combination of backhand and fronthand English (as I believe Joe Tucker contends they do, often subconsciously), then is there that much of a difference in learning with either type of cue? Either way you would just learn to pivot a little differently.

That brings up another possible disadvantage:

-Low-squirt cues have long "natural pivot lengths," which might not be appropriate for either BHE or FHE. Therefore, there is no simple aim-and-pivot squirt-compensation method ... a "combination" of BHE and FHE will be required.
​

Regards,
Dave

PS: FYI, I have an article with good illustrations and explanations of BHE, FHE, and "natural pivot length" here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf
​

 

[smoooothstroke]

Thank you for your post and for all your research on this subject.Where were you 7 years ago when i was struggling to figure this out myself?BTW does an OB-1 have less deflection/squirt then a Predator shaft?

 

[MBTaylor]

If I recall correctly, the OB1 has more than the Z2 but less than the 314-2.

 

[dr_dave]

low-squirt cue comparisons

Thank you for your post and for all your research on this subject.Where were you 7 years ago when i was struggling to figure this out myself?BTW does an OB-1 have less deflection/squirt then a Predator shaft?

Platinum Billiards has some comparative data here:

https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
​

The OB-1 is fairly low, but the Predator Z-2 is currently the lowest (of the shafts tested).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

The amount of squirt will depend on the butt of the cue as well as your grip and stroke.
cOOp

Platinum Billiards has some comparative data here:

https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php
​

The OB-1 is fairly low, but the Predator Z-2 is currently the lowest (of the shafts tested).

Regards,
Dave

 

[junksecret]

I said any player with any cue. As I understand squirt and swerve (which is almost not at all from a technical standpoint) even a low deflection shaft doesn't mean you don't have to compensate since swerve is a result of english (masse) and low squirt doesn't mean NO squirt.

While there may be some benefits to the LD shafts, I think your brain compensates for whatever forces continually occur and as such I think staying with the SAME equipment is more important than the exact characteristics of the equipment.

Or, maybe it's just because when I start readin' all that physics stuff it makes my head hurt......

 

[ShootingArts]

sorry for the belated reply

Right on the money, as usual.
However, I feel there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both low squirt
and high squirt shafts.
-cOOp

I missed your post replying to mine so here is a very belated reply. You are right of course, every shaft has advantages and disadvantages. It comes down to how the player deals with the qualities of the shaft.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

butt, grip, and stroke effects

The amount of squirt will depend on the butt of the cue as well as your grip and stroke.

The physics and experimental data suggest that the butt, grip, and stroke should not affect squirt. The last 6-10 inches of the shaft (including the tip and ferrule) is all that appears to matter when it comes to squirt. The joint and butt can certainly affect the "feel" or "hit" of the cue, but I don't think they can have any significant affect on squirt. Why do the think the butt, grip, or stroke can affect squirt?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

squirt is important

I missed your post replying to mine so here is a very belated reply. You are right of course, every shaft has advantages and disadvantages. It comes down to how the player deals with the qualities of the shaft.

What shaft "qualities" do you think are truly important to how well a player can play with a given shaft? If the shaft is straight and has a good tip, and the diameter, taper, and cue weight/balance are comfortable, isn't the amount of squirt the most important attribute?

If a player switches from one cue to another with the same tip, taper, and weight/balance, wouldn't the amount of squirt be the most important factor affecting how the cue actually plays?

Some people seem very particular about the "sound" and "feel" of the "hit," but these "qualities" don't seem to be that important to others. But if one shaft squirts more than another, you will need to aim differently. Some people will adjust faster than others, but everybody would need to adjust with a squirt change.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

grip

A tight grip on the butt inhibits the natural vibration
of the cue. This will reduce the contact time of the tip
on the ball.

A loose grip, at the nodal point allows
the cue to flex naturally and maintain a longer
contact time.

The nodal point of the cue is the
part that stays still while the rest of the cue
vibrates.

If the cue is not allowed to flex naturally, the
characteristics of the cue will not be seen.
A tight grip will exert a force on the cue that
changes it's properties.

-cOOp, know your cue.

 

[dr_dave]

cue flex and vibration

A tight grip on the butt inhibits the natural vibration
of the cue. This will reduce the contact time of the tip
on the ball.

A loose grip, at the nodal point allows
the cue to flex naturally and maintain a longer
contact time.

The nodal point of the cue is the
part that stays still while the rest of the cue
vibrates.

If the cue is not allowed to flex naturally, the
characteristics of the cue will not be seen.
A tight grip will exert a force on the cue that
changes it's properties.

With a typical cue, I don't think flex or vibration has much to do with the physics between the tip and CB during the extremely brief (approximately 0.001 second) impact time. Most of the flex and vibration occurs well after the CB is gone. For example, see:

HSV A.25 - Cue deflection and vibration due to firm stroke with English
​

and

HSV A.76a - close-up of tip during off-center hit
​

The vibration affects the "feel" of the cue, but I don't think it has much effect on the physics between the tip and CB.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ShootingArts]

not really

What shaft "qualities" do you think are truly important to how well a player can play with a given shaft? If the shaft is straight and has a good tip, and the diameter, taper, and cue weight/balance are comfortable, isn't the amount of squirt the most important attribute?

Dave,

I have tried to answer your post three or four times with a definitive answer and deleted each effort. I will simply say that there are a handful of things, any one of which may be of primary importance when talking about one individual shaft. Squirt is only one of those things. Ultimately we have to have confidence in our equipment to play well. Other things beyond squirt may be the primary factor destroying that confidence.

Hu

 

[androd]

the tight grip puts overspin on the OB and the pockets will reject anything
except a perfect hit . tight grip is not good.

 

[td873]

A low squirt cue is just another tool for the task of playing pool. But, there is an underlying question that must be answered before selecting the correct tool for the job: "what do you want to accomplish?"

The reason this is of critical importance is that the low squirt shaft has a different set of operational parameters (if you will) than a standard shaft. But, that is NOT to say that the operation is better - just different. If you intend/desire the cue ball to squirt every shot with english, well, the low squirt shaft may actually detract from your game. It is only if you want low deflection that the low-squirt shaft is beneficial. And there has been no advocating that deflection itself is bad. [n.b., low deflection does not mean no deflection].

As for tools for the job, chew on this:

9-ball players should like the fact that, for a normal shaft, deflection plus swerve gives you a "natural" aiming point for medium speed shots. Thus, you get "medium" and "easy" shots free, at the expense of long (harder speed) shots. Put another way, on hard shots you must compensate for lack of swerve.

Or maybe, 9-ball players should like the fact that, for low deflection shafts [edit typo], low deflection itself gives you a "natural" aiming point for long distance shots at speed (harder speed shots). Thus, you get "hard" and "easy" shots free, at the expense of medium speed shots. Put another way, on medium shots you have to compensate for swerve.​

Hmmm, sounds like swerve is the unknown variable...

-td

 

[dr_dave]

shaft "qualities"

Originally Posted by dr_dave
What shaft "qualities" do you think are truly important to how well a player can play with a given shaft? If the shaft is straight and has a good tip, and the diameter, taper, and cue weight/balance are comfortable, isn't the amount of squirt the most important attribute?

I have tried to answer your post three or four times with a definitive answer and deleted each effort. I will simply say that there are a handful of things, any one of which may be of primary importance when talking about one individual shaft. Squirt is only one of those things. Ultimately we have to have confidence in our equipment to play well. Other things beyond squirt may be the primary factor destroying that confidence.

I list some important attributes above, but I agree with you that it is not an easy question to answer. There are many "qualitative intangibles" ("feel," "hit," "sound," "aesthetics," etc.) that might be psychologically important to a player even if they might not have direct effect on the outcome of a shot.

Regards,
Dave

 

[BPG24]

I don't think all of the advantages and disadvantages are necessarily "obvious" to or well understood by most people. I discuss some in my article and summary page. Here's a quick summary:

advantages of low-squirt cues:

1. If one is not good at compensating one's aim for squirt, a lower squirt cue might result in better consistency and accuracy on certain shots.
   
2. A low-squirt cue might offer a slight improvement in accuracy when English is being used (per Diagram 2 and the discussion in the article).
   
3. A low squirt cue might enable slightly larger effective tip offsets (and slightly more English), but this effect is negligible (per the data in my summary page).

disadvantages of low-squirt cues:

1. A "low-squirt" cue can be expensive.
   
2. If one is used to compensating one's aim with a higher-squirt cue, it might be difficult to adjust to the lower-squirt cue.
   
3. Some people might not like the "feel," "sound," or "look" of a low-squirt cue.
   
4. A low-squirt cue might not be as mechanically sound over long-term use (i.e., the shaft end might not be as strong and tough).
   
5. If someone hits lots of slower-speed English shots, and he or she is used to a higher squirt helping to cancel some or all of the swerve, then he or she might have trouble adjusting to a low-squirt cue (where more swerve compensation would be required for these shots).

Do you guys have any comments on these or have others to offer?

Thanks,
Dave

All of the disadvantages that you listed can be easily overcome with an open mind and some dedicated practice. The advantages far outweigh the time you have to put in to make the switch, some people just don't understand them.

The expensive part is untrue. have you priced a shaft from any custom cuemakers lately?

 

[dr_dave]

squirt, swerve, throw aim compensation

A low squirt cue is just another tool for the task of playing pool. But, there is an underlying question that must be answered before selecting the correct tool for the job: "what do you want to accomplish?"

The reason this is of critical importance is that the low squirt shaft has a different set of operational parameters (if you will) than a standard shaft. But, that is NOT to say that the operation is better - just different. If you intend/desire the cue ball to squirt every shot with english, well, the low squirt shaft may actually detract from your game. It is only if you want low deflection that the low-squirt shaft is beneficial. And there has been no advocating that deflection itself is bad. [n.b., low deflection does not mean no deflection].

As for tools for the job, chew on this:

9-ball players should like the fact that, for a normal shaft, deflection plus swerve gives you a "natural" aiming point for medium speed shots. Thus, you get "medium" and "easy" shots free, at the expense of long (harder speed) shots. Put another way, on hard shots you must compensate for lack of swerve.

Or maybe, 9-ball players should like the fact that, for low deflection shots, low deflection itself gives you a "natural" aiming point for long distance shots at speed (harder speed shots). Thus, you get "hard" and "easy" shots free, at the expense of medium speed shots. Put another way, on medium shots you have to compensate for swerve.​

Hmmm, sounds like swerve is the unknown variable...

-td

Good post!

Squirt, swerve, AND throw all require aim compensation. This is one of the things that makes pool so "interesting" (i.e., hard). For more info and details, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

With a typical cue, I don't think flex or vibration has much to do with the physics between the tip and CB during the extremely brief (approximately 0.001 second) impact time. Most of the flex and vibration occurs well after the CB is gone. For example, see:

HSV A.25 - Cue deflection and vibration due to firm stroke with English
​

and

HSV A.76a - close-up of tip during off-center hit
​

The vibration affects the "feel" of the cue, but I don't think it has much effect on the physics between the tip and CB.

Regards,
Dave

The HSV A.76a shows the tip compressing and the diameter growing larger (on one side) as it hits the one ball. Just thought that was interesting.

JoeyA knows that when you don't grip the cue stick tightly you get more accuracy and the cue ball does more of what you hope it will do.
JoeyA

 

[Paul Dayton]

Dave,

It might be harder for some to learn to shoot with a solid shaft, but in the end no matter what you are using you have to get used to it. When you do, there is no conscious compensating for speed or english, it's done automatically on the sub-conscious level.

My choice in your poll would be, None of the above.