Machinist level?

TrxR

Well-known member
Anyone here have any experience with a Fowler machinist level?

img(1).jpg
 

TrxR

Well-known member
It will work, but it's way too sensitive. Ten times more sensitive than a Starrett 98.
The graduations on a Starrett are .005", that thing is .0005.
A local online auction has it. I thought it was interesting. I think I'll keep an eye on what it goes for.

Any idea on what it might be worth?
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem is it will drive you crazy trying to get the bubble between the lines or even close.

I'm thinking this level is way beyond what slate specs are machined to.

After a day or 2 of work you might/maybe get some acceptable/compromised results.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
Ive used them lots for setting up machinery , printing presses. They come on the back of a semi in units. one or two on a lowbed.. they are heavy things..
a press may have up to about 10 units or so coupled together. the geartrain is all helical cut gears that run in an oilbath, and the mesh is dependent on extremely accurate level , height and distance. - it's an adjustment in 3 planes BTW, not only level...

as the sheet travels through it is gripped by one cylinder, and passed to the next and there is a small amount of dwell and then the first set opens.
that sheet may be passed between 40 different cylinders as it passes through , printing each subsequent color... cyan yellow magenta and black , maybe spot colors and coatings as well ..
Perfecter presses flip the sheet end for end and print the other side of the sheet in one pass..

the physics of transporting a sheet through all those transfer points and not moving or twisting it or distorting it by even .001" and not damaging the sheet at all are truly incredible.
If the sheet moves out of register even the slightest you have a problem with overlapping colors not fitting.. photos look blurry and distorted.
now its just wasting paper because those sheets are unacceptable.

web presses like used for newspapaers and flyers require less accuracy than a lot of the work done on a sheetfed.. web presses are faster. but still very precision machines requireing similar accuracy in setup.

a lot of the mechanincal adjustments relate to the level and they dont work right if they are not level.

Setting up a pool table is not comparable, the tolerances are much less stringent, I agree, with lots of experience levelling machinery, a level like that will only drive you nuts.

I'd use a level but note that, also if you just place a ball on the bare slate with no cloth, and roll it and watch what it does, that gets you pretty close.. You can so easily see by that which way they want to go and adjust , then use the level after you get that close.. I'm not saying dont use a level, just that pool ball can also be a handy way to check things.. if a bare ball wants to run to the same end, or runs in some criss cross direction you can see it pretty easily without even picking up the level. .. Of course use a level as well to confirm and for final checks.

from what I saw on levelling mine, I can get close enough with just a pool ball that I can take a playing card and insert it under one side or the other of the slate and see the level move..

anything like a pool slate or a machine can easily be sitting level on 3 feet but still be in a position where it can rock or shift due to it basically sitting on 3 points not 4. so you can make sure you have 4 point contact at least..

on mine I needed some shims and used some heavy vinyl flooring as shims to get me close. the frame is super heavy wood made in one section, some twist was expected. luckily the center was the high point so once I had the center slate level and I knew i needed to shim the ends somewhat, then I wouldnt get trapped , becaue if course, you can only lower the slate until it contacts the frame.

most other tables have adjustable feet and the frames can bend or twist somewhat but this thing I had was super solid, the frame itself weighs a huge amount, most tables have a frame that can disassemble, not this one.

my thinking was that the slight compressibliity of the vinyl flooring might allow it to bear weight more evenly than if I were to use harder shims.. or just wood wedges..
I felt that once I was trying to go beyond a sheet of bond paper ( .003) as an adjustment , i was about as close as I can get, next I'd be fussing about how flat the slate was and you can go further if you wish.. until you are happy or can not get any closer..

same for a so called "professional mechanic" it means he being paid for it, so you pay him by the hour until you are happy.. do you want 2 full days of levelling, no. likely not.. so set reasonable expectations for when you agree enough is enough.. maybe fair enough to pop a pool ball on the bare slate roll it slow, and watch together , you could insist he goes further or say thats ok.. or trust his judgement.


depending where you install, the weight of the table may shift the floor over time too.. best if it's on concrete..

by comparison, a multi unit printing press requires a base of 2 feet of solid concrete, they don't want it shifting.. so they normally cut out the existing floor and pour an extremely solid foundation.. so that it can be leveled to that kind of accuracy when in place.. . that would be rediculous for a pool table.. going way outide a practical tolerance is not going to improve the overall performance, but You can go as far as you like if you are alone doing it for yourself..

if you find yourself with a table with the cloth off, you can try just a pool ball , observe what happens.. If the ball wants to pick the same way to travel, you can get it closer. You may also find dips and valleys that way.. at that point you are splitting differences..

im not saying a level isn't required but maybe you wanted to change a cloth had no level to use , and wanted to check if the floor had shifted or if things looked basically close to ok, that pool ball trick may work ok there..
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice level, but if you put it on a table, and the table is on anything except solid thick concrete, and walk around to the other side, the bubble will move away from you. It will indicate where you are standing on the floor based on the deflection by your weight.

Like Mr. Snookered, i use similar Starrett 199's for rebuilding and scraping worn machines back in to tolerance.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
this video shows how the floor is built for a printing press near the beginning, and gives some idea of the setup. a level like that is what we'd use to level each unit during assembly.. it's time lapse so you wont see a guy using the level but each section needs to be precision aligned.. you can see the floor structure used to support such a machine. In order to keep all its parts level and aligned the floor needs to be super rigid, that's why all the rebar.


here's a video from the factory with a glimpse inside at the geartrain of one of those presses.. note she says alignment within "two to three microns". A micron is one thousandth of a millimeter.

Simply amazing machines, the quality is extreme.

 
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3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
this video shows how the floor is built for a printing press near the beginning, and gives some idea of the setup. a level like that is what we'd use to level each unit during assembly.. it's time lapse so you wont see a guy using the level but each section needs to be precision aligned.. you can see the floor structure used to support such a machine. In order to keep all its parts level and aligned the floor needs to be super rigid, that's why all the rebar.


here's a video from the factory with a glimpse inside at the geartrain of one of those presses.. note she says alignment within "two to three microns". A micron is one thousandth of a millimeter.

Simply amazing machines, the quality is extreme.

To me what's more amazing is how do you calibrate the tools required to get such accuracy.
Then what tools are required to calibrate/certify those tools. What certifies those and What ....

Of course there's an end to this since it gets to a "no need" area, but there's instruments that can certify high precision levels. Normally the standard is 5x more accurate/precise than the instrument needing to be certified.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
calibrating a level is actually very easy. set it down on a flat and true surface that's close to level.. pick it up, turn it end for end, the bubble should be in the same place, if not it can be adjusted with a screw until it can be turned end for end with no difference in the position of the bubble. with a level that accurate you just need something flat and that isn't subject to moving. You could send it to a professional and have it calibrated, but that's really all there is to a level.

even if its out a line, the user can simply split the difference. Anyone in the habit of using one will often pick it up and turn it, just to see if it can locate itself in the same spot with relation to the bubble..

can check your carpenters level, or common torpedo level the same way, its not made to be as accurate, and the bubble may not be adjustable, but the same principles apply.

yes there are experts that specialize in checking sophisticated measuring equipment, load cells and such. some needs calibration and often at a specified period.
Im sometimes called to fix a machine used to bend steel beams, engineering lab facility.. . its fascinating to see.. the dial is like an old school clock only lab quality , with a face 3 feet across.. neat to see.. built in 1965. not much electronics,, bourdon tubes move the clock dial, like how an air pressure guage works , but larger.

they can put a huge steel I beam in there, 20' long , they stick these little sensors all over the steel and they are glued down.. the machine is capable of 1 million newtons of pressure. 225 thousand pounds of pressure.. they wont stress the beam enough to pass it's point of elasticity as that would permanently bend it. but stop before that point.. all the sensors are connected to computer readouts so they can graph pressure against expansion, at specified points, and each little 1 inch sensor is actually stretching or shrinking.. now if they wanted to modify the beam for some reason, say , drill a hole or weld to it, they could do the same tests and see differences, then they would have knowledge ( data) to wheather the mods added or removed strength ..

then the graph shows a relationship between the pressure applied and movement... they do stuff like that to base values so for example a bridge can be overbuilt for safety.. it might be capable of carrying a few times more weight than it can be loaded to the point of failure. ( a safety factor)

there is a line there where more becomes impractical as it obviously also reflects cost. To get that data , engineers and test facilities do experiments and compile data. an interesting thing is that the data is essentially physics and physics does not change over time..

there are very few breakthroughs or "eureka moments" in physics. what is known and compiled, never changes. other sciences , yes, they have breakthroughs and discoveries.

if you made bolts you'd stress test them to the point of failure, that gives data.. tensile strength, shear strength etc. you have to test to make claims and sell bolts based on the strength etc.. likely spot checks for quality control during production, if you got some bad steel for example then youd need to know, somehow. before it caused a bridge collapse.

to calibrate a machine like that they have some pretty impresive looking load cells. it looks like a great big C shape with a micrometer in the middle,, as you add pressure it collapses, moves the micrometer.. all very precision and expensive looking.. once you have a calibrated load cell you can measure things with it..

here's a machine that can put a million pounds of force on things.. or 4.45 million newtons. it uses weights, a three story stack of 3 meter weights! thats what you use to callibrate giant load cells.. a load cell can then be used to callibrate other similar machines..
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
calibrating a level is actually very easy. set it down on a flat and true surface that's close to level.. pick it up, turn it end for end, the bubble should be in the same place, if not it can be adjusted with a screw until it can be turned end for end with no difference in the position of the bubble. with a level that accurate you just need something flat and that isn't subject to moving. You could send it to a professional and have it calibrated, but that's really all there is to a level.

even if its out a line, the user can simply split the difference. Anyone in the habit of using one will often pick it up and turn it, just to see if it can locate itself in the same spot with relation to the bubble..

can check your carpenters level, or common torpedo level the same way, its not made to be as accurate, and the bubble may not be adjustable, but the same principles apply.

yes there are experts that specialize in checking sophisticated measuring equipment, load cells and such. some needs calibration and often at a specified period.
Im sometimes called to fix a machine used to bend steel beams, engineering lab facility.. . its fascinating to see.. the dial is like an old school clock only lab quality , with a face 3 feet across.. neat to see.. built in 1965. not much electronics,, bourdon tubes move the clock dial, like how an air pressure guage works , but larger.

they can put a huge steel I beam in there, 20' long , they stick these little sensors all over the steel and they are glued down.. the machine is capable of 1 million newtons of pressure. 225 thousand pounds of pressure.. they wont stress the beam enough to pass it's point of elasticity as that would permanently bend it. but stop before that point.. all the sensors are connected to computer readouts so they can graph pressure against expansion, at specified points, and each little 1 inch sensor is actually stretching or shrinking.. now if they wanted to modify the beam for some reason, say , drill a hole or weld to it, they could do the same tests and see differences, then they would have knowledge ( data) to wheather the mods added or removed strength ..

then the graph shows a relationship between the pressure applied and movement... they do stuff like that to base values so for example a bridge can be overbuilt for safety.. it might be capable of carrying a few times more weight than it can be loaded to the point of failure. ( a safety factor)

there is a line there where more becomes impractical as it obviously also reflects cost. To get that data , engineers and test facilities do experiments and compile data. an interesting thing is that the data is essentially physics and physics does not change over time..

there are very few breakthroughs or "eureka moments" in physics. what is known and compiled, never changes. other sciences , yes, they have breakthroughs and discoveries.

if you made bolts you'd stress test them to the point of failure, that gives data.. tensile strength, shear strength etc. you have to test to make claims and sell bolts based on the strength etc.. likely spot checks for quality control during production, if you got some bad steel for example then youd need to know, somehow. before it caused a bridge collapse.

to calibrate a machine like that they have some pretty impresive looking load cells. it looks like a great big C shape with a micrometer in the middle,, as you add pressure it collapses, moves the micrometer.. all very precision and expensive looking.. once you have a calibrated load cell you can measure things with it..

here's a machine that can put a million pounds of force on things.. or 4.45 million newtons. it uses weights, a three story stack of 3 meter weights! thats what you use to callibrate giant load cells.. a load cell can then be used to callibrate other similar machines..
You really just can't stay on the topic can you. It's like a requirement that you write a novel to answer the simplest questions😅🤣😂
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
You really just can't stay on the topic can you. It's like a requirement that you write a novel to answer the simplest questions😅🤣😂
If a post is too hard to comprehend you can click the grey square to the right and move it down towards the bottom of the screen. it will move the lines of type upward. If you learn how to use it you don't need to sit there all confused and frustrated.
 
Last edited:

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
calibrating a level is actually very easy. set it down on a flat and true surface that's close to level.. pick it up, turn it end for end, the bubble should be in the same place, if not it can be adjusted with a screw until it can be turned end for end with no difference in the position of the bubble. with a level that accurate you just need something flat and that isn't subject to moving. You could send it to a professional and have it calibrated, but that's really all there is to a level.

even if its out a line, the user can simply split the difference. Anyone in the habit of using one will often pick it up and turn it, just to see if it can locate itself in the same spot with relation to the bubble..

can check your carpenters level, or common torpedo level the same way, its not made to be as accurate, and the bubble may not be adjustable, but the same principles apply.

yes there are experts that specialize in checking sophisticated measuring equipment, load cells and such. some needs calibration and often at a specified period.
Im sometimes called to fix a machine used to bend steel beams, engineering lab facility.. . its fascinating to see.. the dial is like an old school clock only lab quality , with a face 3 feet across.. neat to see.. built in 1965. not much electronics,, bourdon tubes move the clock dial, like how an air pressure guage works , but larger.

they can put a huge steel I beam in there, 20' long , they stick these little sensors all over the steel and they are glued down.. the machine is capable of 1 million newtons of pressure. 225 thousand pounds of pressure.. they wont stress the beam enough to pass it's point of elasticity as that would permanently bend it. but stop before that point.. all the sensors are connected to computer readouts so they can graph pressure against expansion, at specified points, and each little 1 inch sensor is actually stretching or shrinking.. now if they wanted to modify the beam for some reason, say , drill a hole or weld to it, they could do the same tests and see differences, then they would have knowledge ( data) to wheather the mods added or removed strength ..

then the graph shows a relationship between the pressure applied and movement... they do stuff like that to base values so for example a bridge can be overbuilt for safety.. it might be capable of carrying a few times more weight than it can be loaded to the point of failure. ( a safety factor)

there is a line there where more becomes impractical as it obviously also reflects cost. To get that data , engineers and test facilities do experiments and compile data. an interesting thing is that the data is essentially physics and physics does not change over time..

there are very few breakthroughs or "eureka moments" in physics. what is known and compiled, never changes. other sciences , yes, they have breakthroughs and discoveries.

if you made bolts you'd stress test them to the point of failure, that gives data.. tensile strength, shear strength etc. you have to test to make claims and sell bolts based on the strength etc.. likely spot checks for quality control during production, if you got some bad steel for example then youd need to know, somehow. before it caused a bridge collapse.

to calibrate a machine like that they have some pretty impresive looking load cells. it looks like a great big C shape with a micrometer in the middle,, as you add pressure it collapses, moves the micrometer.. all very precision and expensive looking.. once you have a calibrated load cell you can measure things with it..

here's a machine that can put a million pounds of force on things.. or 4.45 million newtons. it uses weights, a three story stack of 3 meter weights! thats what you use to callibrate giant load cells.. a load cell can then be used to callibrate other similar machines..
Or if its a level for a pool table you set it on a relatively stable and level bench, mark it, take a reading, turn it 180 degrees aligned with your mark and read it again. Simple.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
If a post is too hard to comprehend you can click the grey square to the right and move it down towards the bottom of the screen. it will move the lines of type upward. If you learn how to use it you don't need to sit there all confused and frustrated.
Why do you have to write about everything NOT to do with simply answering the OP's question????
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
If a post is too hard to comprehend you can click the grey square to the right and move it down towards the bottom of the screen. it will move the lines of type upward. If you learn how to use it you don't need to sit there all confused and frustrated.
You turn EVERY post you make into some kind of life story😅🤣🤣
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
still cant; figure it out?
here are a few links that might help .



https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/174471r






you can do this. You are never too old to learn something new.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
still cant; figure it out?
here are a few links that might help .



https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/174471r






you can do this. You are never too old to learn something new.
What i DON'T want to read through, is your life story everytime you answer someone's question, no matter how SIMPLE the question is!!!
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
I dont care about your silly issues.. If you dont like reading my posts, stop reading them you grumpy old man.

There really isn't a need for your incessant childlike complaining.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I dont care about your silly issues.. If you dont like reading my posts, stop reading them you grumpy old man.

There really isn't a need for your incessant childlike complaining.
And there's no need for you to post in this forum as you have nothing worthwhile to say, unless you just like feeling like you're important, in which you're not!!
 
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