sometimes the unintentional ones are best
Sometimes the unintentional ones are the funniest! It made me laugh out loud.
Hu
Sev said:
Sometimes the unintentional ones are the funniest! It made me laugh out loud.
Hu
"Madison" Bob Griffin: Failure to honor his commitments to a client.
- Thread starter Sev
- Start date
JimS said:
Excellent suggestion. I do the same here, but I generally put the person's e-mail address in the body (to make sure I remember where to send the message, when I finally get it ready) and I erase it from the TO space, to prevent accidentally sending it, anyway. I've had that happen, before. UGH!!! After the message sits for a day or two, I generally find a much better (and calmer) way to say what I need to say. I try to do the right thing, at least.
I do hope all gets worked out in a very agreeable manner. At least you're not sounding all angry and unwilling to work with the cuemaker. That's a good start.
Best wishes to you both!
Best wishes to you both!
Just in defense , all has not been disclosed. I have seen the original cue in question. It is loaded with inlays and special ringwork. The problems of this cue came from it's original construction , not the builders error.
There was much time spent on the construction and inlay work of that particular cue. On the steps leading to the final cut , the points were so poorly constructed , that very bad glue lines appeared , points were shifting making them very offset. This comes from the center core of the original construction being misalligned.
The second attempt is much different than discribed. Many changes after the fact were made. I mean many changes. Changing of design , to colors used , to styles used. This is usually the case in custom building , but once the changes are locked down , that is it. This has not been the case.
I was also contacted to get into this so called problem several months ago , and respectively declined. I could see where it was going.
I do know that the maker in question has done alot for this situation and the events that have gone on. The changes made to the second cue have been very frequent and done after the fact of constuction. To the point the cue has been dismantled 5 times to accomodate the customer.
The joint have been changed after the fact , ringwork , type of collars and buttplate materials have been changed and cut and ruworked.
Yes , I personally know the builder. But this event happens all to often in the custom building of cues by email or phone. The money in question I would not consider a down payment , but as work done and redone due to the customers request.
I don't know of any maker out there as fair as the maker in question. I feel the email has slammed the maker and is totally misrepresented the events that have gone on.
The bottom line is work has been done , several changes done , 2 cues built , and very little respect has been given to issues that are beyond the control of the builder in question.
My 2 cents and disappointment to you sir for posting such aligations,
Jim
There was much time spent on the construction and inlay work of that particular cue. On the steps leading to the final cut , the points were so poorly constructed , that very bad glue lines appeared , points were shifting making them very offset. This comes from the center core of the original construction being misalligned.
The second attempt is much different than discribed. Many changes after the fact were made. I mean many changes. Changing of design , to colors used , to styles used. This is usually the case in custom building , but once the changes are locked down , that is it. This has not been the case.
I was also contacted to get into this so called problem several months ago , and respectively declined. I could see where it was going.
I do know that the maker in question has done alot for this situation and the events that have gone on. The changes made to the second cue have been very frequent and done after the fact of constuction. To the point the cue has been dismantled 5 times to accomodate the customer.
The joint have been changed after the fact , ringwork , type of collars and buttplate materials have been changed and cut and ruworked.
Yes , I personally know the builder. But this event happens all to often in the custom building of cues by email or phone. The money in question I would not consider a down payment , but as work done and redone due to the customers request.
I don't know of any maker out there as fair as the maker in question. I feel the email has slammed the maker and is totally misrepresented the events that have gone on.
The bottom line is work has been done , several changes done , 2 cues built , and very little respect has been given to issues that are beyond the control of the builder in question.
My 2 cents and disappointment to you sir for posting such aligations,
Jim
Great answer. When are you running for the senate?J&D CUSTOMS said:
I have read this post 4 times, and it hasn't made sense yet.
J&D,
You say that Sev "misrepresented the situation". Please remember that in a business situation, there really is no situation. The "facts" are almost irrelevant, unless you have some neutral 3rd party arbitrator. What really matters is the perception of the customer and the business owner, because that is really all they have.
Sev posted his perception of the situation. It seems hard to argue with the statements about contacting Bob. If Bob has not effectively communicated with Sev, then THAT is the problem. I think Sev has enumerated that several times. I think Bob could have told Sev that he accidentally dropped the cue in a woodchipper, and Sev might have gotten past that if it was quickly and honestly communicated.
Communication is so important. All the things that you say Bob did, was any of this outlined verbally or on "paper" for Sev? Do YOU think Sev was communicated with effectively? Because if he wasn't, then Bob could have rebuilt the cue 100 times and inlaid fragments from the Holy Grail into the handle--if Sev doesn't know about this, then who cares? Again, without effective communication, the efforts of anyone in the sales industry are worthless and wasted. This is something that you just have to accept.
Good luck Sev
You say that Sev "misrepresented the situation". Please remember that in a business situation, there really is no situation. The "facts" are almost irrelevant, unless you have some neutral 3rd party arbitrator. What really matters is the perception of the customer and the business owner, because that is really all they have.
Sev posted his perception of the situation. It seems hard to argue with the statements about contacting Bob. If Bob has not effectively communicated with Sev, then THAT is the problem. I think Sev has enumerated that several times. I think Bob could have told Sev that he accidentally dropped the cue in a woodchipper, and Sev might have gotten past that if it was quickly and honestly communicated.
Communication is so important. All the things that you say Bob did, was any of this outlined verbally or on "paper" for Sev? Do YOU think Sev was communicated with effectively? Because if he wasn't, then Bob could have rebuilt the cue 100 times and inlaid fragments from the Holy Grail into the handle--if Sev doesn't know about this, then who cares? Again, without effective communication, the efforts of anyone in the sales industry are worthless and wasted. This is something that you just have to accept.
Good luck Sev
Good point Kerry. You've seen my Mad Bob (playing and jump/break) I believe; when I ordered them before I had Bob do ANY work I sent him a formal letter in business format describing every little thing we discussed and my order went of without a hitch. I thing that kind of communication is a must. I recently order a cue from another cuemaker who I consider a friend, nevertheless, I sent him a formal business letter describing everything we discussed in detail before he began work, even went so far as to send it to him in an email to proofread before putting it in the mail (USPS mail that is).KMRUNOUT said:
Good communication is a must when making business deals, even apparently straight forward ones.
Sev and I have discussed this on another forum and it sounds like in this instance Bob is the one failing to communicate and it is due to poor health. As I recall he uses his wife's email account and I had an email or 2 go astray when dealing with him. I just sent another and he got back to me.
e-mail
E-mail is by no means 100% reliable. Sev's original e-mails may have never gotten past his server, may have been derailed by any server along the way, Bob's e-mail server, or spam filters that Bob and his wife have no idea are even running. The same is true of any e-mails that Bob may have sent. When e-mails aren't replied to then you must assume the e-mail was not received and pursue other means of communication.
Hu
E-mail is by no means 100% reliable. Sev's original e-mails may have never gotten past his server, may have been derailed by any server along the way, Bob's e-mail server, or spam filters that Bob and his wife have no idea are even running. The same is true of any e-mails that Bob may have sent. When e-mails aren't replied to then you must assume the e-mail was not received and pursue other means of communication.
Hu
catscradle said:
That is no defense Jim.J&D CUSTOMS said:
Indexing changing by 18 degrees? I think not! Even if it was 1.8 degrees (as presented as a possibility) why weren't the inlays lined up on the points anyway. If the points were off in the original construction that would be the owners problem not the cuemakers. When the cuemaker failed to line the inlays up on the points, he made it his problem.
Proper thing to have done would have been to call the customer and ask him what he wanted to so.
In instances like this the cuemaker does have options. Accept the change or don't accept it. If the change is accepted, the price (generally) and build schedule is changed also.
No it's not. If the design and specifications are clear between the two parties to begin with I feel it would be seldom that changes would be requested. Even if they were, so what? If the customer is paying the (proverbial) freight, it's his or her option.
J&D CUSTOMS said:
---JD I believe my contact with you was incidental to another post. Perhaps when I listed some cues for sale?? As I recall I did discuss with you some aspects of the projects and had asked you if you had knew Bob. You said you and Bob had been great friends for years. I also recall asking you if you had ever seen a cue by that description in Bobs shop and you said no. I also recall asking that if you had the chance to contact Bob to tell him I was asking after him.
---I have always had Bobs contact information. I may have asked you if it had changed. Otherwise there would be no reason for me to ask you for it.
---On 2-21-06 In a PM, You asked me if I ever got my cue back. Also on the same PM you stated I could contact you anytime and that you would always be willing to help.
---Also on 2-21 you had said you had not been to Bobs shop for a year.
---On 3-05-6 I PM'd you to see if you had heard any word on Bobs condition. You had said you had not.
---4-14-07 I PM'd you and asked if you had talked to Bob and you told me you had not talked to him in quite awhile.
---It seems by your statements in your post you were aware of my cue and it could be inferred that Bob was aware I was attempting to contact him and ignored me.
---So Back to the cues at hand.
---On the first cue I have never seen a pic of it in progress. It was my understanding that it was to be seriously sweet. Bob offered pics and to send the cue back to me for inspection so I could see exactly what he was talking about. I didn't receive either.
---He also said that there were probs with the veneers. Your short description of what the problem was with the forearm, that being the center core being out of aline, is perfectly clear and understandable to me. It is the clearest description that I have gotten.
---He then to my knowledge dismantled the cue. Your statement leads me to believe the cue may still indeed be intact???? Since you have seen the cue would you clarify this statement for me??
---BBC cue.
---The root of the entire problem here seems to be a serious gap in communication. I never asked Bob to disassemble the cue 5 times. I was unaware that he had. At most I knew he was at possible component configurations.
---The original joint was to be a carom with a wood pin. I told Bob I was buying a threading tool for this purpose from MP Tools in CA and that he was more than welcome to use it for the purposes of the project. Bob declined. We then discussed an ivory joint vs replacement ivory. To my recollection that was the extent of our discussion on the joint.
---It had become clear to me that Bob and I were not on the same page when discussing the second cue. I apparently was still discussing the design of the cue and he was in the assembly stage. I had sent him emails as to the status of the cue. It is possible he didn't read them until after the fact. However that is only speculation on my part. I had sent him detailed specs on the global specs of the cue as far as weight, balance pt, OAL, diameter at the butt and such several times. I do not believe I ever varied on those. I do have at least one email with those specs embedded in it.
---Its been my experience that there is always a serious discussion about the design of the cue prior to it being assembled. I enjoy brainstorming with a builder on the design of the cue. I will fully admit that I was was asking questions and making suggestions for the design of the cue and looking for input. It appears that Bob thought I was making change orders when I was still discussing getting started.
---There were long gaps in communication. At one point I asked Bob for the cue back and that he needed not to feel obligated to build the cue if his health wouldn't permit it. I believe that was Jan 06. I also at some point offered him the option of sending the cue a builder of his choice that he trusted to finish, if he liked. I have to check for the exact date
---I did not know he was assembling the BBC cue until one particular email when he said I couldn't keep changing the design. I was baffled by this as I thought we were still in the layout phase as I stated above. Jim's statement that Bob had the cue assembled and disassembled 5 times is news to me. I have never asked a builder to do such a thing once I know a course has been set. He did say he had built different handle sections for the cue which I did not understand as the cue was to remain fully spliced or at the very least short full spliced. If the graining on the handle was nice I wanted that exposed otherwise the cue was to get a wrap. Bob had said that he didn't think adding a sleeve and using the full handle would work and suggested cutting off the forearm and installing a new handle section. I declined that suggestion. At the most it was to have been an extension under the wrap and a sleeve.
---I recall calling Bob and we got on the same page. And the final assembly was to occur. I have emails of us joking about it. To me our business relationship seemed intact and in good order.
---I have stated before that I understood about Bobs health problems and clearly made allowances. I am sure I don't have all the facts. How can I. Nobody was talking to me. Even you Jim dodged getting us together after his offer to help. I can however understand his hesitance.
---I have made allowances for about 4 years. Its very frustrating to when one is sitting in the dark.
---When you are in business you have certain obligations to your cliental. It behooves you to remain in communication with them. If a situation arises where that is not possible, arrangements should be made so another individual is be able to explain the situation. At the very least a letter of explanation would have sufficed. Short of going to Indiana I did everything possible to contact Bob to no avail.
---To my the last of my knowledge Bobs son works in the shop and as Varney cues contacted his wife earlier in this thread I have to assume she is somewhat involve in the business as well. Either one could one could have contacted me to lay my concerns to rest. I would have been completely satisfied with that.
---Had that occurred this situation would never have come to public light.
---To say I have been seriously frustrated at times is an understatement. If I, for my part have misunderstood something along the way then I apologize for that.
---However when there is almost no communication from one side and an unreasonable amount of time passes and all attempts to reestablish communication have failed it is completely reasonable to question what the situation exactly is.
---This thread was not made in an attempt to slander Bob. I have attempted to establish the time line of my dealing with Bob and clarified questions as they came in the thread. I included what I thought was pertinent at the beginning of the thread to keep it reasonably short.
--- If you notice I have not attacked Bob or his business. I have complemented him on other work he has done for me and a cue that I purchased from him. I do believe he is a very good builder. I have no ill will towards him what so ever. I am still very sympathetic to Bobs health conditions. However I do think he has seriously dropped the ball where as it concerns me personally.
---All I have asked for is to have my cue returned to me in as good a condition as I sent it or to complete the project. I would trust Bob to finish the cue should he desire to. Bob previously offered a black center cut lizard skin wrap and 100.00 in labor and parts as good faith on his part and gave me a final balance as to the total cost as it stood at that time. I was very agreeable to that at the time and still am.
---I do not consider myself as to being unreasonable in this matter and am fully aware that by making this post that it would be easy for what my intent is, to be misconstrued. I believe that posting this thread has serious risks but after not having any success of contact through any other medium I believed this to be my last recourse.
Is this the "Ted Harris" defense? If I don't answer my phone or answer emails, I can deny that you've called me or sent a message to me.ShootingArts said:
it is the common sense approach
Shawn,
This is the common sense approach, not defense. Common sense is something that you apparently prefer to ignore. Sometimes e-mails bounce back, sometimes they simply disappear into a black hole. Sometimes they are caught and eventually released to the confusion of everyone. I had an e-mail take several months to travel five miles once. That e-mail was an invoice for several thousand dollars. Being reasonable people we had dealt with the bill long before the errant e-mail finally reached it's destination.
When you make assumptions, you are setting yourself up for misunderstandings. Making assumptions that your message is reaching someone when they aren't replying is foolish. Send it return receipt requested and see what happens. After months, it is past time to spend two bucks on a stamp and certified letter too.
Hu
Shawn Armstrong said:
Shawn,
This is the common sense approach, not defense. Common sense is something that you apparently prefer to ignore. Sometimes e-mails bounce back, sometimes they simply disappear into a black hole. Sometimes they are caught and eventually released to the confusion of everyone. I had an e-mail take several months to travel five miles once. That e-mail was an invoice for several thousand dollars. Being reasonable people we had dealt with the bill long before the errant e-mail finally reached it's destination.
When you make assumptions, you are setting yourself up for misunderstandings. Making assumptions that your message is reaching someone when they aren't replying is foolish. Send it return receipt requested and see what happens. After months, it is past time to spend two bucks on a stamp and certified letter too.
Hu
There are a million excuses but this has been going on since 2004. It is now 2007 and coming to and end very soon. It sounds like Griffin screwed things up and made excuses to cover his ass. Then Sev buys into this and gives the guy more work that he also ****ed up. Enough is enough. If he has health problems, so be it. Send the cues back to the man. Sev isn't paying Griggin to have his son do the work, he is paying Griffin to do the work. Griffin didn't even have the decency to tell Sev that his son was working on the cues. In Sev's post he tread very lightly in view of the time, money, possible flaming, and efforts he put forth to accommodate Griffin. Don't worry about the flaming you are being wronged and Griggin should be man enough to send the cues back to you, at the very least.
Sev may be asking the impossible
Dawgie,
As I said in my early posts, the situation needs to be resolved. However, Sev may be asking for the impossible when he is asking to shut things down at this point and have the cue returned to him in at least the condition it was in. It now seems that the second cue has had quite a bit of work done on it. Half done work, even if the stick has been assembled five times, is still half done work at the moment.
It now appears that Bob was under the impression the design was finalized while Sev considered it in the brainstorming stage too. No way for any of us on the outside to know who was at fault there. Changes after construction has started can be a minor detail or a major hassle. I have thrown more than one project to the side and made no bones about it that I wasn't going to touch it again until the client signed off on a final specification when they started making running changes. I also made it plain that changes to that final specification were likely to involve changes in the time and dollars involved.
As is usual in such things, it looks likely that neither party was perfect in this transaction. Regardless, it should be resolved. Sev doesn't deserve to lose his sticks and his money and we have no clue if Bob deserves the hammering he is getting in this thread since we haven't heard a word from him yet.
Hu
Sev said:
Dawgie said:
Dawgie,
As I said in my early posts, the situation needs to be resolved. However, Sev may be asking for the impossible when he is asking to shut things down at this point and have the cue returned to him in at least the condition it was in. It now seems that the second cue has had quite a bit of work done on it. Half done work, even if the stick has been assembled five times, is still half done work at the moment.
It now appears that Bob was under the impression the design was finalized while Sev considered it in the brainstorming stage too. No way for any of us on the outside to know who was at fault there. Changes after construction has started can be a minor detail or a major hassle. I have thrown more than one project to the side and made no bones about it that I wasn't going to touch it again until the client signed off on a final specification when they started making running changes. I also made it plain that changes to that final specification were likely to involve changes in the time and dollars involved.
As is usual in such things, it looks likely that neither party was perfect in this transaction. Regardless, it should be resolved. Sev doesn't deserve to lose his sticks and his money and we have no clue if Bob deserves the hammering he is getting in this thread since we haven't heard a word from him yet.
Hu
If I ever have a falling out with a customer, I sure hope its a man like Sev 
I'd be nowhere near as nice, fair, lenient, or forgiving as he has shown... I'd be planning my alibi by now
Maybe I'll learn something for your bad situation... I really wish I could behave as honorably as you have, Sev. Maybe I should take you example and try it out next time somebody is turning the screws on me...
I'd be nowhere near as nice, fair, lenient, or forgiving as he has shown... I'd be planning my alibi by now Maybe I'll learn something for your bad situation... I really wish I could behave as honorably as you have, Sev. Maybe I should take you example and try it out next time somebody is turning the screws on me...
Sounds like a 30 minute phone call would do wonders.
Sorry to hear things aren't working out.
Sorry to hear things aren't working out.