Magic Bullets and Dead Horses

softshot

softshot

Simplify
Silver Member
I have read so many posts arguing the Merits that such and such will make you a better player. I have participated in many of those discussions myself over the past year.

the most popular of these Dead Horses/Magic Bullets:

Aiming systems

Low deflection shafts

Gambling/not Gambling

all of these roads lead to the same place...

you learn a new aiming system that you truely believe will help you.
you practice it and get better.

You buy a new shaft that you truely believe will make you a better player
you practice with it and you get better

you think Gambling your money will help you get better... eventually you get tired of losing

so you practice and get better..

its not the gadget or the system or the myth that made you better..

It was the Practice...

Just throwing that out there...
 
Agreed mostly, except for the gambling. Practice doesn't always make you better in pressure situations. I know practice champions who run out playing the ghost, but can't make 4 balls against a real opponent.

Also, I think gambling is the absolute fastest way to learn the game of 1-pocket. While it won't immediately teach you what the "right" shot is, it will *certainly* teach you what the "wrong" shot is (when you inevitably shoot at your hole and sell out).

softshot said:
I have read so many posts arguing the Merits that such and such will make you a better player. I have participated in many of those discussions myself over the past year.

the most popular of these Dead Horses/Magic Bullets:

Aiming systems

Low deflection shafts

Gambling/not Gambling

all of these roads lead to the same place...

you learn a new aiming system that you truely believe will help you.
you practice it and get better.

You buy a new shaft that you truely believe will make you a better player
you practice with it and you get better

you think Gambling your money will help you get better... eventually you get tired of losing

so you practice and get better..

its not the gadget or the system or the myth that made you better..

It was the Practice...

Just throwing that out there...
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StevenPWaldon said:
Agreed mostly, except for the gambling. Practice doesn't always make you better in pressure situations. I know practice champions who run out playing the ghost, but can't make 4 balls against a real opponent.

Also, I think gambling is the absolute fastest way to learn the game of 1-pocket. While it won't immediately teach you what the "right" shot is, it will *certainly* teach you what the "wrong" shot is (when you inevitably shoot at your hole and sell out).
Click to expand...

Playing under pressure can help... but what works is the same method the military uses to train troops who have never been in combat before..

they drill relentlessly so that the ingrained muscle memory is impossible to refuse regardless of the pressure.. and if its good enough to keep them from getting killed their first time in action I would have to say that it works for the vast majority of soldiers, or the military would try something else.

how do you get that required muscle memory in pool??

PRACTICE constantly.
 
And I bet Mike Eufemia couldn't disagree more... especially since you're comparing nuclear bombs to oranges.

This still also doesn't address strategy. I think when something is on the line, patterns and positions change. Learning to play percentages changes completely; those stroke shots you may nail during practice are much more difficult when you're hill-hill and on the 5-ball to run out.

Anyway, this seems like a thread doomed to repeated posts and hair-pulling. Let's try to add something new to the dialogue.

softshot said:
Playing under pressure can help... but what works is the same method the military uses to train troops who have never been in combat before..

they drill relentlessly so that the ingrained muscle memory is impossible to refuse regardless of the pressure.. and if its good enough to keep them from getting killed their first time in action I would have to say that it works for the vast majority of soldiers, or the military would try something else.

how do you get that required muscle memory in pool??

PRACTICE constantly.
Click to expand...
 
OK.. there are 1,000,001 books, dvd's, training aids, secret systems, $200 shafts..

and they almost all start with "if you practice these techniques you will become better"

therefore they are all saying the same thing

the only way to raise your game is to practice.. that is the ONLY way to get there..

there is no easy ride if you haven't put in the hours on the table there is nothing on the market or in pool mythology that can help you.

of course you can't just practice. you have to be involved in some sort of competitive game.. be it league or tourneys or even gambling.. but you need practice and a place to play better players. if you don't all the gadgets and media on the planet won't make you any better..


the reason these magic bullets are so staunchly defended I believe is because there is that desire in the world for the easy fix. and people WANT to believe it exists..

it doesn't..

the only way you attain anything of value in your life pool or otherwise is hard work..Period
 
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softshot said:
Playing under pressure can help... but what works is the same method the military uses to train troops who have never been in combat before..

they drill relentlessly so that the ingrained muscle memory is impossible to refuse regardless of the pressure.. and if its good enough to keep them from getting killed their first time in action I would have to say that it works for the vast majority of soldiers, or the military would try something else.

how do you get that required muscle memory in pool??

PRACTICE constantly.
Click to expand...

Yep...all those useless military innovations like M16s, F16s, bullet vests, night vision, smart bombs....Hell, just send the troops out with M1s with bayonettes and a few grenades and PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!

Pool has had plenty of innovations over the years including L/D shafts and yes, systematic aiming methods and they should not be dismissed as useless any more than the military innovations should be.

(-:

Jim
 
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I think you are missing the point of most of these products and system though. Most of them don't make a claim of "instant improvement" because most consumers are just not that dumb. However, many of them do make viable statements such as "_____ will help you become a better player."

I'm a big fan of LD shafts, and I personally think that the statement "LD shafts will make you a better player" can be qualified. IMO, if you have two beginners, one with a regular shaft and one with a Predator 314, and they practice 8 hours a day for a month, of course both will become better players. But it is in my opinion that the player with the 314 will have progressed more in the same period of time (assuming equal conditions, such as talent of course). Sure many people might disagree with this, but the basic point is still there: Practice matters, but it is not implausible (and even likely) that the "Magic Bullets" you mentioned DO "help you become a better player"
 
av84fun said:
Yep...all those useless military innovations like M16s, F16s, bullet vests, night vision, smart bombs....Hell, just send the troops out with M1s with bayonettes and a few grenades and PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!

Pool has had plenty of innovations over the years including L/D shafts and yes, systematic aiming methods and they should not be dismissed as useless any more than the military innovations should be.

(-:

Jim
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hopefully any special forces troops can chime in here on the value of muscle memory under pressure..

I know several.. and all credit their intense training with saving their lives at least once.

people shooting live ammunition at you vs a few bucks on a pool game.

there is pressure to perform and then there is perform or die..

if muscle memory training is good enough to get you through perform or die I am certain that it can get you through a pool game..
 
kingwang said:
I think you are missing the point of most of these products and system though. Most of them don't make a claim of "instant improvement" because most consumers are just not that dumb. However, many of them do make viable statements such as "_____ will help you become a better player."

I'm a big fan of LD shafts, and I personally think that the statement "LD shafts will make you a better player" can be qualified. IMO, if you have two beginners, one with a regular shaft and one with a Predator 314, and they practice 8 hours a day for a month, of course both will become better players. But it is in my opinion that the player with the 314 will have progressed more in the same period of time (assuming equal conditions, such as talent of course). Sure many people might disagree with this, but the basic point is still there: Practice matters, but it is not implausible (and even likely) that the "Magic Bullets" you mentioned DO "help you become a better player"
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Efren becam one of the best in the world without a LD shaft as did, Greenleaf,Mizerak, Mosconi, Crane, Hall and on and on and on and on

LD shafts are not better they are just different.

it's all in your head

you want it to make you better so you tell yourself that it did

it had nothing to do with the hours you put in on the table after you finally got the shaft you dreamed about and couldn't put it down for weeks on end.. all that shooting wasn't what got you there.. it was the shaft??

I'm not buying
 
softshot said:
Efren becam one of the best in the world without a LD shaft as did, Greenleaf,Mizerak, Mosconi, Crane, Hall and on and on and on and on

LD shafts are not better they are just different.

it's all in your head

you want it to make you better so you tell yourself that it did

it had nothing to do with the hours you put in on the table after you finally got the shaft you dreamed about and couldn't put it down for weeks on end.. all that shooting wasn't what got you there.. it was the shaft??

I'm not buying
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But here you are just pulling generalizations and false logic out of your ass. Sure the majority of the greatest pool players in history have used standard shafts, but thats because LD shafts haven't been around very long. You have nothing to compare that group to and nothing to back up your claims. If there were a similar group of talented players at that time with LD shafts that failed at pool, THEN you have a point. But just pointing out great players with standard shafts says nothing. A large percentage (even maybe the majority) of the best players in the world today use LD shafts.


As for the other points, such as "it's all in your head", if you can give me solid evidence or solid logic of the fact, I'll be convinced. Otherwise, it just sounds like circular logic to me.
 
Like Buddy Hall told me, "make the one-ball getting the QB on the two-ball at the correct angle to get on the three after maklng the two...now keep doing that". Johnnyt
 
kingwang said:
But here you are just pulling generalizations and false logic out of your ass. Sure the majority of the greatest pool players in history have used standard shafts, but thats because LD shafts haven't been around very long. You have nothing to compare that group to and nothing to back up your claims. If there were a similar group of talented players at that time with LD shafts that failed at pool, THEN you have a point. But just pointing out great players with standard shafts says nothing. A large percentage (even maybe the majority) of the best players in the world today use LD shafts.


As for the other points, such as "it's all in your head", if you can give me solid evidence or solid logic of the fact, I'll be convinced. Otherwise, it just sounds like circular logic to me.
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lets take your average everyday APA4 we will give him a spot in the field at the US Open...

we will give him 2 days with Hal a brand new OB1 and bet his house on every match in the tourney..

if all of these hocus pocus remedies work he should be a favorite to win...

but I'm guessing he will get squashed by some nobody from South Dakota with a beat up 10 year old joss. who by all accounts didn't leave the practice table for years except for competition..
 
softshot said:
lets take your average everyday APA4 we will give him a spot in the field at the US Open...

we will give him 2 days with Hal a brand new OB1 and bet his house on every match in the tourney..

if all of these hocus pocus remedies work he should be a favorite to win...

but I'm guessing he will get squashed by some nobody from South Dakota with a beat up 10 year old joss. who by all accounts didn't leave the practice table for years except for competition..
Click to expand...

Lets give take Tony Robles (he uses a 314, am I correct?) and put him against an APA6 with a 10 year old Joss and give him 2 days with Hal. OH MY GOD, Tony Robles won? How unexpected!

I think that sufficiently addresses why your previous post doesn't really contribute much. A better situation is what if we gave two people who have never used either standard nor LD shafts (thus they have never played pool) and gave them 4 months of training and one an LD shaft and one a standard shaft. Who is better in the end? In my opinion, probably the guy with the LD shaft.
 
kingwang said:
Lets give take Tony Robles (he uses a 314, am I correct?) and put him against an APA6 with a 10 year old Joss and give him 2 days with Hal. OH MY GOD, Tony Robles won? How unexpected!

I think that sufficiently addresses why your previous post doesn't really contribute much. A better situation is what if we gave two people who have never used either standard nor LD shafts (thus they have never played pool) and gave them 4 months of training and one an LD shaft and one a standard shaft. Who is better in the end? In my opinion, probably the guy with the LD shaft.
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and I say it will be the guy who wants it more.. and puts in the most time at the table to get there.
 
AV..I get the analogy,but I'm surprised by your stance.I'd expect you to more in SS's camp then out given the subject.
 
softshot said:
and I say it will be the guy who wants it more.. and puts in the most time at the table to get there.
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Ok, goddammit I'm gonna try one more time before I go to sleep!

2 guys, clones of each other, exact same childhood, everything EXACTLY the same. They have never played pool before in their lives. Both get a entry level McDermott, except while one gets the standard McDermott shaft and one gets a Pred 314. They both get 4 months of training, EXACTLY the same with exactly the same table time. Now, who is gonna be better after the 4 months are over?

I think it would be the guy with the LD shaft. You are simply missing the whole point of all this: YES practice is very important and overshadows most other factors, but equipment and experience and the other "magic bullets" you listed DEFINITELY matter.
 
You ain't seen nothin' yet...

If you want to enter the real world of "Magic Bullets" and "Dead Horses", take up golf...
 
kingwang said:
Ok, goddammit I'm gonna try one more time before I go to sleep!

2 guys, clones of each other, exact same childhood, everything EXACTLY the same. They have never played pool before in their lives. Both get a entry level McDermott, except while one gets the standard McDermott shaft and one gets a Pred 314. They both get 4 months of training, EXACTLY the same with exactly the same table time. Now, who is gonna be better after the 4 months are over?

I think it would be the guy with the LD shaft. You are simply missing the whole point of all this: YES practice is very important and overshadows most other factors, but equipment and experience and the other "magic bullets" you listed DEFINITELY matter.
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ok your last best argument to prove LD shafts is a star wars scenario with clones and and slave like training...

thats just not realistic...

lets look at it from the real world.. take two bar leauge players of equal ability take away ones usual shaft and replace it with an LD shaft right before a match and let them play... who wins..

we can play this game all night..

knowing the shaft you have is more important than learning a new one... and the only way you can know a shaft or learn a new one is through practice...
 
Ok, goddammit I'm gonna try one more time before I go to sleep!
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I like your attitude bud.You are telling it as you see it.

I'll disagree fwiw...anyone who knows the cue and how it will perform...well...knows the cue and how it will perform.
 
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