Make A Valley Play Very Close To A Diamond

[hon400ex]

I just got my Valley, with the Ridgeback pro rails on it. New simonis felt and new Super Pro balls. I have 1150 in it and it plays really good, but I would love to have a Diamond. They are just too hard to find a used one and the new ones were too much for me to spend. I have a great picture but don't know how to post it from my phone.

 

[Idaho]

Diamond has gone through learning curve to get where they're at today. Before I got involved with Diamond, they were producing tables for many years with the same rail dementions as they've always used but...I'm the one that showed Diamond how to make their tables play perfect, and that caused a big change to the Diamond factory...and the way their tables play today. There's no books, PDF files, drawings, or information out here to help table manufactures design the rails to play at their best...so in all honestly, Diamond did what every other table manufacture did, put the cushions of their choice on the rail design they were using, and set the nose height to 1 29/64"ths of an inch. They changed cushions several times, looking for cushions that played better than what they were already using in a constant ongoing effort to make their tables play better, but got NO help from the cushion manufactures when it came to solving the problem of their rails banking short and springy.

So, what was Diamond suppose to do to solve that problem?...because they did everything they could on their end to make their tables play better

So, if anyone wants to get mad at Diamond, they really should be mad at me instead...because I'm the person who showed Diamond what to do, and how to do it....in order to change the way their rails play which is what created the Blue Logo Diamond tables

And...for the record, the Brunswick GC5 don't play right either, and could use a rail design change just as Diamond has done.....and that's an $11,000 table....so I guess the price tag isn't what gets you that perfect playing table...is it?

Glen

So Glen, were the smart tables already out when you started working with Diamond?

 

[frostedcue]

Glenn you are basically saying Diamond got it wrong for the 1st decade or 2.. or until you came along and corrected them. Hmm, do you think that being a reputable company Diamond will recall all their mistakes and correct them for the owners (and especially the players) for free or will we all be stuck with poor playing tables that were built incorrectly?

Diamond has gone through learning curve to get where they're at today. Before I got involved with Diamond, they were producing tables for many years with the same rail dementions as they've always used but...I'm the one that showed Diamond how to make their tables play perfect, and that caused a big change to the Diamond factory...and the way their tables play today. There's no books, PDF files, drawings, or information out here to help table manufactures design the rails to play at their best...so in all honestly, Diamond did what every other table manufacture did, put the cushions of their choice on the rail design they were using, and set the nose height to 1 29/64"ths of an inch. They changed cushions several times, looking for cushions that played better than what they were already using in a constant ongoing effort to make their tables play better, but got NO help from the cushion manufactures when it came to solving the problem of their rails banking short and springy.

So, what was Diamond suppose to do to solve that problem?...because they did everything they could on their end to make their tables play better

So, if anyone wants to get mad at Diamond, they really should be mad at me instead...because I'm the person who showed Diamond what to do, and how to do it....in order to change the way their rails play which is what created the Blue Logo Diamond tables

And...for the record, the Brunswick GC5 don't play right either, and could use a rail design change just as Diamond has done.....and that's an $11,000 table....so I guess the price tag isn't what gets you that perfect playing table...is it?

Glen

 

[Shaky1]

I have played on both many times. A Valley does not play like a Diamond and i.m.o. never will. The slate leveling is the main difference.
A valley that the slate warps on is pretty much junk at that point.
A slow roll on a cue ball will show you the difference. Night and day i.m.o.
Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

 

[Johnnyt]

I have played on both many times. A Valley does not play like a Diamond and i.m.o. never will. The slate leveling is the main difference.
A valley that the slate warps on is pretty much junk at that point.
A slow roll on a cue ball will show you the difference. Night and day i.m.o.
Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

No ones talking about a Valley with warped slate or w/o Ridgeback rails on them. Have you ever played on a Valley with good cloth and Ridgeback rail on it? Johnnyt

 

[Shaky1]

No ones talking about a Valley with warped slate or w/o Ridgeback rails on them. Have you ever played on a Valley with good cloth and Ridgeback rail on it? Johnnyt

I have played on many with warped slates! There is no fix that I know of?
I'm not talking about how they bank. The red label rails will fix that too on a diamond.
I'm talking about how a slow hit ball rolls.
We have a local club here that just had their 2 Valleys recovered by one of the best mechanics around. You don't want to slow roll on it.
You will miss the object ball completely in some places.
That can be adjusted on a diamond.
Not on a valley.

 

[realkingcobra]

So Glen, were the smart tables already out when you started working with Diamond?

Not really, Diamond had some proto type Smart Tables already in use at the time I got involved with Diamond back in 2000 but wasn't in production of them tables at the time. My work with Diamond at the time was showing Diamond how to build the coin-op table design that I was already building back in Washington state, so I spent 7 months at the factory working with Diamond to come up with a merger of my design and Diamond's proto type to create one coin-op pool table, so to answer your question....yes and no

 

[realkingcobra]

Glenn you are basically saying Diamond got it wrong for the 1st decade or 2.. or until you came along and corrected them. Hmm, do you think that being a reputable company Diamond will recall all their mistakes and correct them for the owners (and especially the players) for free or will we all be stuck with poor playing tables that were built incorrectly?

Diamond didn't make mistakes building their pool tables for the first 20 years or so, if they did they'd have never sold any of them and they'd have gone out of business a long time ago. To date, I only know of one customer that right from the first purchase of his Diamond tables years ago, complained about how they played...starting the day he recieved them, so for that customer I redesigned the play of the rails on Diamond's dime. As far as going back to Diamond's begining and redesigning the rails on every Diamond ever built....that'll start the same day Ford starts recalling the 1964 1/2 Mustangs and every one built after that so that they can all be turned into a new 2013 Mustang GT...at no cost to the owners

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[bigg7]

Screwed

I recently purchased a Murray . I contacted ridgeback and I have rails on the way. The problem is I notice the slate is high in the center and I can't think of any way other than drilling through the slate into the frame . I know the answer is to hire a qualified mech there isn't a mech with a 1000 miles of me.

 

[Manoman2444]

Diamond didn't make mistakes building their pool tables for the first 20 years or so, if they did they'd have never sold any of them and they'd have gone out of business a long time ago. To date, I only know of one customer that right from the first purchase of his Diamond tables years ago, complained about how they played...starting the day he recieved them, so for that customer I redesigned the play of the rails on Diamond's dime. As far as going back to Diamond's begining and redesigning the rails on every Diamond ever built....that'll start the same day Ford starts recalling the 1964 1/2 Mustangs and every one built after that so that they can all be turned into a new 2013 Mustang GT...at no cost to the owners

When they have recalls on cars, they don't turn them into new cars, they just fix the problem with them.

 

[realkingcobra]

I recently purchased a Murray . I contacted ridgeback and I have rails on the way. The problem is I notice the slate is high in the center and I can't think of any way other than drilling through the slate into the frame . I know the answer is to hire a qualified mech there isn't a mech with a 1000 miles of me.

Check for shims in the middle under the slate, if there is none...then the middle is sitting flat on the cross members and the ends of the slate are low...raise them.

 

[Neil]

Is the shelf actually extended, or are the rails just cut longer/deeper? I always thought the slate was about the same size, but the rails were what made a shelf "deeper."

Doesn't matter either way, I'm just generally curious.

The rails are extended, and the shelf is extended. If you only extend the rail, you have effectively shortened the shelf. You can actually make a table play easier just by narrowing the pocket opening (extending the rails) as long as the down angle is correct.

 

[jalapus logan]

The Diamond BB's with the red logo top have to be the ones you are speaking of..... They're junk exactly because of the conditions you stated. They have since remedied all of that with the new blue logo tops that have a different rail configuration. The blue logo tables play like a dream and the red logo tops are horrible, especially on a BB. The blue is so much better than the red its disgusting, epsecially when its humid.... When its humid, the red logo is maybe the worst playing BB ever! I'm a Diamond fan, always have been... But, as I told someone last weekend after playing on a humid red logo table, I wouldn't trade one clapped out 25 year old Gandy for a red logo box..... But I wouldn't trade a blue logo box for 10 clapped out Gandys.

Diamond finally got it right, its just a shame there are so many red logo tables out there misrepresenting the brand.....

I really like my red logo diamond 9 footer. Always have. Here is a discussion I had with Real King Cobra about the new design and whether or not I should upgrade. I'm glad I made the decision to stand pat and not change anything (note: I have since had it recovered using simonis 860 HR instead of the normal 860).

Having said that, I think I would like the new blue table design just as well. I think that I can get used to whatever though. In fact, I've got a 7' valley right next to my diamond that I love as well. Paid $100 for it, switched out the rails for Ridgeback ones, put simonis 860 on it and it was good to go. deals are out there...

 

[jalapus logan]

I agree, but the rails on a Valley also help suck in the balls. The Ridgebacks tighten the pockets, and don't allow a ball to slop in high on the rail. The Ridgebacks play perfect.

I put Ridgebacks and fast cloth on my Valley and it played lights out for a Valley. I finally found a good price on a Diamond locally and made the upgrade.

So, Ridgebacks, extended shelf, fast cloth and something to quiet those beasts down and you will have a great home table.

It should be noted that Ridgeback makes custom rails, so just because they are Ridgebacks does not mean that they are tight pockets. I elected to have them make mine to valley's standard cut, which is loose by comparison to a diamond.

 

[realkingcobra]

When they have recalls on cars, they don't turn them into new cars, they just fix the problem with them.

Look, there isn't a pool table out here that I can't make play better than the manufacture did...so does that make all pool tables built wrong? No, thats exactly what makes pool tables play different from each other, so no... they're not built wrong, just different is all. There's a lot of factors that can make a pool table play bad, and they go way beyond what design spec's a manufacture decided to use to build their pool tables. Balls, cloth, dirty conditions, humidity.....it ALL adds up, including, but not limited to...who worked on the table LAST. Cars get recalled because of a life threating default in the factory design, when was the last time you ever heard of someone loosing their life while playing on a pool table?...Apples to Oranges, get it right.

Can you name one table manufacture besides Diamond that is always looking to improve their line of pool tables?...while supporting this industry as much as Diamond has? And with Diamond's level of quality in the tables they build today....even I can't make them play any better than the factory does ...but I can still improve the playability of ANY other table built today....so what does that say about Diamond's tables?

Glen

 

[hon400ex]

Is the shelf actually extended, or are the rails just cut longer/deeper? I always thought the slate was about the same size, but the rails were what made a shelf "deeper."

Doesn't matter either way, I'm just generally curious.

The rails are wider, thus making the shelf deeper. You don't do anything to the slate. On mine, the playing surface is 39" wide, instead of 40".

 

[bigg7]

Thanks for your response Glenn

I shimmed the slate at the rails but the bed is still higher. And I had a really hard time getting the rails back on. I have seen some table here with holes drilled in the slate by the foot spot . It's a guy from Tokyo and he only works on certain people's tables . I have about 2 weeks till the rails get here to figure it out. I do appreciate any knowledge you guys can drop on me.

 

[bearsafety]

This is with extended rails and shelves. It will spit balls back out if not hit good. View attachment 266976

How did u get the shelves to go deeper? new slate?

 

[Neil]

How did u get the shelves to go deeper? new slate?

Added on to them with a wood strip epoxied on and bondo over that.