Man playing as woman at APA nationals

[Neil]

Here is an average looking post op transsexual in 2016. If she didn't tell you, how would you even know?

Granted, he looks like a girl. On the OUTSIDE. Now, I'll ask you this- if someone puts on makeup to look like a zombie, does that make them a zombie??

Rhea, you have to know already, there is much more to being a woman physically than just having boobs and a vagina. Those two are just the obvious differences between men and women.

 

[billiardthought]

I'll answer with a question- WHY would you not include them in your dating pool? And, really think about your answer, and be perfectly honest with it.

I see you are deflecting.

I would not consider dating a woman who used to be a man because I would not be able to have children with this person. Just like I would not consider dating someone who was born with any issue preventing them from having kids.

Does a woman have to be able to become pregnant to still be a woman?

I will ask again, why does my CHOICE classify someones gender. We should be talking about the definition of a woman, not how my choices can change someones gender.

Neil, you said the argument was so strong, but I hope now you realize the question of the definition is strong, but this argument sucks.

 

[benjaminwah]

APA has had a lawsuit from a woman who wanted to compete in the men's division before apparently.

Traditionally, the APA allowed both men and women to compete in the “men’s/open” division, which represents the premier and most competitive of the APA divisions. This changed, however, after Ms. Broadhurst publicly announced her intention to enter into and win the “men’s/open” division. Shortly thereafter, the APA rescinded its non-discriminatory rule and allowed only men to compete in the “men’s” division, and restricted women to the “women’s” division. APA rule number two and eleven now state, respectively:
2. Gentlemen contestants compete in the Men’s Division and Lady contestants compete in the Women’s Division.
. . .
11. The APA reserves the right to deny participation.
Because of the APA’s discrimination against women, Ms. Broadhurst could not compete in the “men’s” division at the regional tournament in 2005, nor in the more recent regional competition held on September 23rd and 24th, 2006 at the Rack ‘Em Cue Club.


aclu-co.org/wp-content/uploads/files/CCRD_complaint_11-20-06.pdf


google the words Broadhurst v. American Pool Players Association

 

[StuartTKelley]

APA has had a lawsuit from a woman who wanted to compete in the men's division before apparently.

Traditionally, the APA allowed both men and women to compete in the “men’s/open” division, which represents the premier and most competitive of the APA divisions. This changed, however, after Ms. Broadhurst publicly announced her intention to enter into and win the “men’s/open” division. Shortly thereafter, the APA rescinded its non-discriminatory rule and allowed only men to compete in the “men’s” division, and restricted women to the “women’s” division. APA rule number two and eleven now state, respectively:
2. Gentlemen contestants compete in the Men’s Division and Lady contestants compete in the Women’s Division.
. . .
11. The APA reserves the right to deny participation.
Because of the APA’s discrimination against women, Ms. Broadhurst could not compete in the “men’s” division at the regional tournament in 2005, nor in the more recent regional competition held on September 23rd and 24th, 2006 at the Rack ‘Em Cue Club.


aclu-co.org/wp-content/uploads/files/CCRD_complaint_11-20-06.pdf


google the words Broadhurst v. American Pool Players Association

The APA did not discriminate against anyone. It set clear rules and separate divisions with clear definitions of what you must be to compete in each one. One sex or the other and not the sex you identify yourself as being because that is a ridiculous thing to have to write into APA rules because it's fantasy and not reality. APA or any other organization is well within their rights to set forth rules and boundaries to follow regardless of how your feelings might ache because of it. If you or someone else doesn't like it then don't choose to participate and don't try to participate and complain because you aren't catered to based on your life choices that you think everyone should accept but because they're all mean, angry bigots they do not. Of course all of you libs and trans would think that way. WTFE@LGBTQ

 

[Neil]

I see you are deflecting.

I would not consider dating a woman who used to be a man because I would not be able to have children with this person. Just like I would not consider dating someone who was born with any issue preventing them from having kids.

Does a woman have to be able to become pregnant to still be a woman?

I will ask again, why does my CHOICE classify someones gender. We should be talking about the definition of a woman, not how my choices can change someones gender.

Neil, you said the argument was so strong, but I hope now you realize the question of the definition is strong, but this argument sucks.

No, I'm not deflecting anything. As to your reason soley being bearing children, there is such a thing as adoption, you know. So, that argument holds no water.

Your question about a woman needing to able to become pregnant to be a woman is a straw man argument at best.

As to your last question about your choice, that is exactly the point. Your CHOICE to identify as a woman does not make you a woman. Thanks for making my point for me.

 

[billiardthought]

No, I'm not deflecting anything. As to your reason soley being bearing children, there is such a thing as adoption, you know. So, that argument holds no water.

Your question about a woman needing to able to become pregnant to be a woman is a straw man argument at best.

As to your last question about your choice, that is exactly the point. Your CHOICE to identify as a woman does not make you a woman. Thanks for making my point for me.

So you're not going to tell me why my choosing whether to date someone inherently makes them a male or female?

 

[haystj]

I will ask again, why does my CHOICE classify someones gender. We should be talking about the definition of a woman, not how my choices can change someones gender.

Ok Ok OK....

Let's slow the roll a bit.

First, nobody is saying your dating choices define male vs. female.

Second, I have no bias toward how people choose to live their lives. If someone wants to transition to a different gender have at it! This is a free country and please live the life you want to live unless it harms OTHER people.

However, the definition of a woman is very well understood and does not need to be defined here for clarity.

If you were born a man and transitioned to a woman (post operative procedures, hormones, low testosterone, etc.) that is fine by me (and I believe most everyone on this thread) but you are still not a woman. I will grant you that person is a trans woman, but just not a woman.

Catlyn Jenner identifies with being a woman,,, that is fine,, but in reality (not the cloudy PC world), Catlyn is a trans woman.

That is all, nothing to do with who you or anyone else wants to date.

 

[nine_ball6970]

I see you are deflecting.

I would not consider dating a woman who used to be a man because I would not be able to have children with this person. Just like I would not consider dating someone who was born with any issue preventing them from having kids.

Does a woman have to be able to become pregnant to still be a woman?

I will ask again, why does my CHOICE classify someones gender. We should be talking about the definition of a woman, not how my choices can change someones gender.

Neil, you said the argument was so strong, but I hope now you realize the question of the definition is strong, but this argument sucks.

It is interesting that you use woman, man, and person in the same sentence. Why did you decide to end the first sentence with person instead of woman?

Do you ask every woman if they are able to have children before going on a first date with them? From my point of view, that would be a subject discussed further along than first meeting someone.

The definition of a woman by dictionary.com. Woman, female, lady are nouns referring to adult human beings who are biologically female; that is, capable of bearing offspring. Woman is the general term.

So what you call a choice is basically what the dictionary uses as a definition.

 

[Neil]

So you're not going to tell me why my choosing whether to date someone inherently makes them a male or female?

First off, your question as stated is twisted to say something that wasn't stated previously. You choosing who to date doesn't make anyone else anything else. No one stated otherwise. But, I'm pretty sure your argument about the kids is nothing more than an excuse that you think makes your point. I think reality is that you won't date a transgender because you want to date a woman, and deep down you would question your own heterosexuality if you dated a transgender.

 

[billiardthought]

It is interesting that you use woman, man, and person in the same sentence. Why did you decide to end the first sentence with person instead of woman?

Do you ask every woman if they are able to have children before going on a first date with them? From my point of view, that would be a subject discussed further along than first meeting someone.

The definition of a woman by dictionary.com. Woman, female, lady are nouns referring to adult human beings who are biologically female; that is, capable of bearing offspring. Woman is the general term.

So what you call a choice is basically what the dictionary uses as a definition.

Regarding man woman and person, did I say something that was misleading, or are you grasping for a way to attack my statements?

Regarding asking every woman if she can have children on the first date, no I don't. Just like how Neil suggested I could adopt a child, these two tidbits don't contribute to this argument. They are only leading away from what we are trying to talk about. How I date doesn't have any influence on the question at hand. If I want to adopt a child or date and hope to raise a child that is my own is irrelevant.

I am still waiting for an answer to why if I choose to not date someone who is a woman that used to be a man, they are then not a woman.

 

[haystj]

I am still waiting for an answer to why if I choose to not date someone who is a woman that used to be a man, they are then not a woman.

This is simple: Nobody is saying that

 

[billiardthought]

This is simple: Nobody is saying that

Then what were you implying in your original post?

 

[nine_ball6970]

Regarding man woman and person, did I say something that was misleading, or are you grasping for a way to attack my statements?

I think if you thought she was a woman and no longer a man, you would have ended the statement with woman instead of person. That is why I found it interesting.

 

[haystj]

Then what were you implying in your original post?

That if a trans woman were just considered a woman,,, then a heterosexual man would have no reason (based on that alone) to not date "her".

But this is not the case, you see, a person born a man is not, no matter what the liberal left wants to believe, a woman.

That individual is free to self identify with whatever they wish, but they are not women. They are "trans women".

The definition of a woman is very clear, and regardless of what surgical procedures, hormone therapy, etc a man chooses to engage in, they will not be a woman- but rather a "trans woman".

There is NOTHING wrong with being a trans woman or man, but a trans woman and a naturally born woman are not the same thing.

 

[hang-the-9]

No, I'm not deflecting anything. As to your reason soley being bearing children, there is such a thing as adoption, you know. So, that argument holds no water.

Your question about a woman needing to able to become pregnant to be a woman is a straw man argument at best.

As to your last question about your choice, that is exactly the point. Your CHOICE to identify as a woman does not make you a woman. Thanks for making my point for me.

I'm not sure who is on what side here LOL, but this is a good point, wanting to be something, even acting like that something, will not make you that something.

If I lived in a tree house and ate bananas full time, it would not make me a monkey. Not even if I had fur implanting surgery. If I went into a forest with some silver-back gorillas and tried to fit in, I'd be killed in 12 seconds. A monkey knows what a monkey is, we should know what a woman or a man is.

There are certain genetic traits that make us what we are, changing that after the fact does not change much aside from what people agree to say what you are. Just like if your kid steals two dollars from you and you ask "did you take my two dollars" and they say "no" but you let it go since kids are kids and 90% of them took some money from parents at one time or another, this does not change the fact that the kid still took the money, even if you pretend you believed them. The facts are, yelling "I AM WOMAN" and getting legal documents made up saying so if you were born with a winnie, does not change reality, just the appearance of it.

I would not date a woman who was a man, if I was aware of that fact, no matter how convincing the change was. Simple put, I would feel "iggy" about it, even if I wanted to on the logical level to accept things, if they were a great person, good in bed as a woman, in the back of my brain I'd be going (use your inner Austin Powers voice) "it's a MAN baby!". It would not stop me from being friendly with them, and treating them as a woman, but I would not say in my inner head, or if I was asked that there were in fact a woman. I'd say "it's a woman that used to be a guy" maybe, but not just "it's a woman". And I think I can do that without felling I'm being a jerk towards any group of people.

 

[smashmouth]

my .02

I could care less about competitive advantages at this point

equality in my mind is a much larger and important human issue

 

[CreeDo]

It's funny we still fuss and argue about this.

Sorry, I know some of you guys miss the 50's when women and gays knew their place, but the cavemen have lost. It's 2016. Transgender people get to openly live how they want. You don't get to shout them down or embarrass them into submission anymore.

"wah but it's an unfair advantage!!!"

I just saw some 5'5" women in the olympics who can lift 350 pounds over their heads. Give me a break.

Nobody is harmed by letting someone who lives as a woman, play pool as a woman.

 

[billiardthought]

That if a trans woman were just considered a woman,,, then a heterosexual man would have no reason (based on that alone) to not date "her".

OK I understand the difference between what you are saying and what I thought you were saying.

I don't think life is as simple as you make it seem in your statement. You are posing the question as if I am selecting a wife for life from a file folder of possible candidates, only showing name and gender, and the file I pick says "Norma, gender Female", and your claim is that I should be comfortable picking Norma because I found her file in the folder for women. If this is what you mean, then yes I am comfortable picking Norma, because I found her in the women's section.

I guess what I am getting at is when you, and I, both find out that Norma has gone through a gender change. I still identify her as a female, but with history that prevents me from wanting to continue a relationship. Norma is not female enough for me in terms of a relationship or marriage. But if Norma is convinced she is a woman, why should I spend my time convincing her and everyone else she isn't.

 

[nine_ball6970]

It's funny we still fuss and argue about this.

Sorry, I know some of you guys miss the 50's when women and gays knew their place, but the cavemen have lost. It's 2016. Transgender people get to openly live how they want. You don't get to shout them down or embarrass them into submission anymore.

"wah but it's an unfair advantage!!!"

I just saw some 5'5" women in the olympics who can lift 350 pounds over their heads. Give me a break.

Nobody is harmed by letting someone who lives as a woman, play pool as a woman.

Apparently the women who were on the other team do not agree with Norma playing in a Women's team event. Are they entitled to have that opinion or not? We can argue all we want as men but this situation had nothing to do with men's point of view on the issue. Women had a problem with it and the APA sided with them.

 

[haystj]

OK I understand the difference between what you are saying and what I thought you were saying.

I don't think life is as simple as you make it seem in your statement. You are posing the question as if I am selecting a wife for life from a file folder of possible candidates, only showing name and gender, and the file I pick says "Norma, gender Female", and your claim is that I should be comfortable picking Norma because I found her file in the folder for women. If this is what you mean, then yes I am comfortable picking Norma, because I found her in the women's section.

I guess what I am getting at is when you, and I, both find out that Norma has gone through a gender change. I still identify her as a female, but with history that prevents me from wanting to continue a relationship. Norma is not female enough for me in terms of a relationship or marriage. But if Norma is convinced she is a woman, why should I spend my time convincing her and everyone else she isn't.

That's fair.

And I better understand where you are coming from and I respect it.

Different opinions are just that,,,,, opinions.

Glad we can have a civil discussion about it. Wish this country had more of that.