Man, pool halls are dangerous

[Hail Mary Shot]

25 feet that is tueller 21 ft. range and hitting 8 in plates every time with anything you got is paramount. or a pocket knife is going to do you in.

some where i read 28% of the time cops hit on a shot. and that's just hit. not end it.

maybe they should start using a benelli as a standard weapon of choice. the stopping power + the spread should be enough to stop an approaching threat.

anyway, having the proper gun is just half the battle. having the proper person, focus, aim, preparedness and mindset is another. all are key to a successful elimination or stopping of a threat. it's really funny whenever I see cop videos of cops shooting a lone perp emptying all their magazines like they were against a herd of zombies running towards them.

 

[ShootingArts]

Did you ever see one of these? I've been wearing one for probably the last 5 or 6 years. I'm in Florida and I almost always wear just elastic waistband shorts and a t-shirt. I can go anywhere and no one can imagine I have a full size pistol on me and a spare mag.

SmartCarry The Invisible Holster https://share.google/phheNqiiuWjV4aD68

I should add that you probably can find this style on eBay or even other places and maybe they're good who knows. But I can tell you this one I've had it off and on thousands of times over the years the velcro holds up the materials really tough and it's really quality made in America.

Never tried one of those. I did try a similar holster with a wide elastic band. I was carrying a Ruger Security Six in 357. A big snubby and I had to stretch the elastic until it was uncomfortable to hold it securely and for it to stay in one place. I tried a handful of holsters. The one I found best was an old undercover cop style holster that hung the .357 upside down and butt forward under my let arm. It concealed under a t-shirt, was almost impossible to prevent a draw from, and came out as quickly as a striking snake. Seemed flaky to have the gun hanging upside down with no kind of safety snap but in years of carry while working and running a wrecker I never had the revolver move at all in a holster.

While I am hesitant to hijack this thread, still, have to input my 2 cents:
Autos fired inside a pocket are only strictly reliable for the first round. My ultralight hammerless S&W 38+P only holds 5, but I assume it won’t jam if one round doesn’t do the job (not guilty of ‘brandishing’, for sure).
Also, I recently watched a YouTube interview with an FBI ballistics expert/agent, explaining why they switched back to 9mm. The resulting cost savings were supposedly coincidental (and we know FBI agents are always truthful). He claimed that recoil recovery speed & modern round choices made up for the sacrifice in stopping force compared to the .40 cal. So, they can now shoot a felon with more rounds accurately in the same allotted time it would take to bring him down with the .40. When perps are shot 16-17 times with a 9, they are certainly more likely to die eventually, if that is the objective (?).

The feebs have plenty of money for testing so they are probably right but the gap between the calibers makes me strongly favor the forty. A 9mm shoots a bullet that is .35x" diameter, a forty shoots a full .4x", a 45 a 452" bullet if I remember the numbers correctly, been a long time. All these diameters usually vary slightly between jacketed and pure lead bullets.

Supposedly as LEO's or concealed carry users the goal isn't to kill someone, isn't to not kill them either. The goal is to stop the threat. I favor a big slow bullet to do that. What happens afterwards is supposedly not relevant. I had a .357 under my counter. I told my wife if she ever had to use the gun, shoot until the gun was empty or the threat was on the floor. Short of me but if somebody had to be shot I wanted them dead, not sitting in a courtroom with an arm or leg missing and suing me for nineteen million! In theory the perfect bullet penetrates to the other side of the shooter stopping just shy of coming out or in the ribcage but all the way through the organs. The goal is to dump all of the energy the bullet carries inside the threat.

I had an employee that was a vietnam vet. He had been a door gunner in a helicopter and he was hit several times with the commie version of the 50BMG. Slightly bigger so they could shoot our ammo if any was recovered, we couldn't shoot theirs. Anyway, he had been hit two or three times in the torso with that machine gun. Around six thousand pounds of energy, they shot down helicopters and even fixed wing aircraft with these machine guns sometimes. Doug spent a long time in the hospital but walked out apparently fine. The heavy metal jackets on the armor piercing rounds let them zip right through soft tissue and out the other side without leaving much energy behind. Scars both sides of his spine and near center height of his body. He was very lucky but no arguing with those big scars.

Apologies but I lost the post about not liking top ejection pistols. I don't like them because I have seen some that hit the shooter in the face with the brass every shot and many did that once in awhile. Easy to develop a flinch when you have to worry about hot brass hitting you in the face.

A side note: We shot steel plates indoors, one on one with a timer. The shooters stood about eight feet apart facing the target of course. The brass from the shooter on the left sometimes hit the shooter on the right. Just as a prank I considered tuning my extractor so the brass flew at the head of my opponent when I drew the left lane! Three to four pieces of brass a second would have been a serious distraction.(grin)

 

[maha]

a shot gun has to be aimed just like a rifle as at defensive ranges you get very little spread. not like what it looks like in the old westerns.
one inch for about 3 feet of distance.
slow repeat shots. rarely the best choice for most people.

 

[ShootingArts]

a shot gun has to be aimed just like a rifle as at defensive ranges you get very little spread. not like what it looks like in the old westerns.
one inch for about 3 feet of distance.
slow repeat shots. rarely the best choice for most people.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard all you have to do is point and shoot with a shotgun, usually from a nonshooter wanting one for self defense. Almost all self defense shootings occur within fifteen feet. Spread within a typical room is small and it isn't all to one side. Let's say you are in a room big enough to give you a six inch pattern. Some think your aim or point can be off six inches and you still hit something. Wrong! Your nominal margin of error is only half the spread, three inches. Note I said nominal though, you have to do more than touch somebody or something with a few pellets. Very optimistically, you need an inch or more on the outside of the pattern making contact. Now you can miss by one to two inches inside a room and hope to stop somebody. If they are really angry or full of drugs that probably isn't going to cut it.

I have read enough of your posts to know that none of this is news to you but I try to write for most readers when I post. The shotgun myths, the people that just want an empty gun to scare people, the false ideas about guns can fill not just a book but a bookcase and plenty left over!

Story time: I was wading in a pond full of crawfish, fish, and cottonmouth moccasins. I was running almost four hundred traps a day. I decided I wanted to try ratshot. Kill the snakes at close range and rip them up enough to make good bait. My first time using ratshot. The first morning with ratshot I had a maybe four foot cottonmouth looking at me from about eight feet away and I was almost up to my waist in the water. A perfect test. I took careful aim at his head slightly out of the water and shot. A perfect pattern all the way around his head. Pissed him off big time! He instantly came my way at 953 miles an hour, maybe 954! This was before my speed shooting days but fear was inspirational and fortunately the pistol was double action so all I had to do was pull the trigger again. Somehow pure blind fear had me pointing the revolver at what I was scared of and I shot the snake in the head when it was under a foot away from the muzzle of the gun. No aim, no thought, just reaction. I lost my respect for the ratshot in a hurry.

About all I did with the ratshot after that was shoot snakes already in a trap. Even that wasn't sure fire. I picked up a trap, a big snake in it. I carefully made bait out of him with the ratshot. My next pass near that trap I decided I wanted to move it over a row. I picked up the trap and noticed the snake was mighty healthy considering I had just shot him at under two feet. I would shoot them with a raking shot under their heads which killed them and put blood in the water. Another look and I saw this was a two headed snake, no, this was two big assed snakes in the trap and I had only shot one! I instinctively gave the trap a fling! One more lesson learned. I learned a lot of lessons in six months of commercial fishing.

Hu

 

[maha]

the little bird shot in .22 was next to useless over say 2 feet and even then it was a joke. you had to go up to at least .38 or so to get the velocity and larger pellets. still not what you want to count on.
as to those water moccasins, i would wade in the everglades and they would come at me trying to get in my waders.

i used my fishing rod to steer them away. never a dull moment. all the gators around then only were about 4 or less
feet and weren't scary.

most didnt know you could kill a moccasin even cut its head off and dead reflex action could make his jaws snap and inject you with poison if not careful.

 

[Rusty in Montana]

A long time friend and even longer time predator trapper was out checking his trap line one nice fall day in South Central Montana .
He came up to another coyote waiting for him in his trap he took a steady aim and fired his .22 pistol hitting it square in the head !

After removing it from the foot hold trap and still wearing a pair of leather gloves he moved the coyotes leg to set the trap again in the trap bed when all of a sudden the dead coyote bit him on the hand and drawing blood it let go and took off on a dead run !

Well what do you do ? Paul gathered up his trap basket of supplies and drove himself to the hospital where they started him on rabies shots !
No he never found the dead coyote that bit him , however he removed many of it's kind before he went to the other camp in the sky !

 

[maha]

a .22 is even iffy on a squirrel.

hope he didn't go to coyote heaven as they will be waiting for him.

i dont mind the suckers. i have a pair that dens at my place about 100 yards from my house on the hillside.
they have 3 to 5 pups every year and nice listening to them howl at night on the river. they do take down a bunch of deer every year but i got an oversupply maybe 50 on the property. and lots of turkeys.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

a shot gun has to be aimed just like a rifle as at defensive ranges you get very little spread. not like what it looks like in the old westerns.
one inch for about 3 feet of distance.
slow repeat shots. rarely the best choice for most people.

Are you saying that using buckshots or modified M4 doesn't create that much spread?

 

[Rusty in Montana]

Please keep in mind that is any of them come down with sarcoptic mange be prepared to shoot them on sight for your own safety and of any pets and mainly you're family !
A rancher I knew had stock dogs that would put a run on coyotes when they'd be out checking on the livestock , he happened to notice a feed shed door swinging in the breeze one cold winter day and walked over to shut it , when he did he looked inside to see 3 froze to death coyotes that didn't have enough hair to make a blanket for a mouse !

Thankfully the feed shed was maybe 100 yards from the main house and his dogs didn't find them first . the down side to sarcoptic mange is that yes humans can contract it from handling them another friend did years ago and yes his legs still itch at times ha ha !

 

[maha]

Are you saying that using buckshots or modified M4 doesn't create that much spread?

its the choke(restrcition) in the barrel that determines the spread. which really is about at close range what i said.

whether you use buckshot or birdshot the spread is about the same per distance. except bird shot doesnt penetrate enough for larger things than birds.

if you use one it is a must to go and pattern it with what you are going to shoot at all distances. and you will find out to about 30 yards the main pattern will be inside 30 inches. depending on your choke. and inside a house distance under 6 inches.

oh and an m-4 is a rifle one projectile at a time, 556.caliber and few can or want to buy one as its select fire and will get you in deep trouble in a civil suit if you use it.

 

[DynoDan]

….The goal is to stop the threat. I favor a big slow bullet In theory the perfect bullet penetrates to the other side of the shooter stopping just shy of coming out or in the ribcage but all the way through the organs. The goal is to dump all of the energy the bullet carries inside the threat…..

I still have a stock of 90s era ‘Quick-Shock’ rounds. Big hollow point bullet, large wound cavity/energy dump (hydrostatic shock) and the serrated jacket separates and spreads out to damage various organs also, possibly amplifying disablement.

 

[maha]

civil defense makes similar now. does what you say, rifle speeds, but shallow penetration. may not get deep enough.

 

[DynoDan]

civil defense makes similar now. does what you say, rifle speeds, but shallow penetration. may not get deep enough.

‘Penetration’. A likely minor issue compared to ‘hydrostatic shock’, which is probably what initially discourages aggression (universal organ disruption). Of course, when major organs ARE penetrated, perpetrator recovery may be hindered/suppressed (?). But, even when the aorta or cardiac chambers are punctured, the time it takes to shut down the cerebral blood supply is still plenty enough to swing a blade or empty a clip (not impossible with those shot 17 times with over-penetrating 9mm hardball).

 

[ShootingArts]

I forget the name now but one bullet was banned many places because the advertising made it sound like it cut through the wound like a buzzsaw. In reality all bullets are only going to make one or two turns going through a person. They sold hunting bullets with the same design and eventually sold pistol bullets without the one or two page ad's making it seem like it chopped a person's innards to pieces!

In reality the Hydro-Shoks worked near perfectly with 12-14 inches of penetration and a big wound channel. The little post in the middle really worked, the same bullet without the post penetrated further but got far less expansion. The good thing, a lot of police forces used hydro-shoks and claimed they were kinder because you didn't have to shoot people as many times! I carry hydro-shoks so I can parrot the police forces if I ever had to shoot someone. "I was just being nice!(grin) I never heard of the hydro-shoks stopping someone from emptying a magazine in a shootout.

I suspect you both remember the shootout that got the 9mm a bad rep. The cops were shooting hardball, the bad guys weren't and the cops(FBI?) were just toting pistols. They had to borrow rifles from a nearby sporting goods to stop the bad guys who were wearing vests. After that the 9mm had a terrible rep.

I knew somebody that worked x-ray in an inner city emergency room. They would x-ray a banger. "Here is the nine he was shot with tonight. There are two old nines, a 25, a couple of 22 rimfires..." For some reason a lot of people toted hardball. Cycles good, probably the most reliable ammo but you could swisscheese somebody and not stop them.

Vietnam was still going on and a man working for me was retired military still in reserves. He was getting a divorce and got fed up with fighting with his wife and decided he would go to vietnam to get some peace! She heard he was at the enlistment office signing up for active duty. She came in the door, "You son of a bitch, you aren't going to vietnam and get killed on me! She shot him across the room seven times with a .25. Hard ball was all you could get back then for the 25 and he was walking around in a week or less, couldn't tell he had been shot in three weeks. My only thought was that was damned good shooting with one of the little .25's. I never did know exactly where he was shot.

One more tale, indicates how dangerous smoking is. Two in the morning, a man and his wife were arguing. She was out of cigarettes and wanted him to go get her some. He wanted to get some sleep. Before the argument was over she shot him four times with his 38Special service revolver, he shot her twice with a twelve gauge, all in a bedroom. Crazy thing, they both lived and of course got back together! Just a misunderstanding. It was just outside of the grounds of Ryan Airport and I knew some of the people that worked the scene. Two people shot to shit and all because of smoking.

Hu

 

[Maniac]

I forget the name now but one bullet was banned many places because the advertising made it sound like it cut through the wound like a buzzsaw.

Hu

The Black Talon???

 

[DynoDan]

I forget the name now but one bullet was banned many places because the advertising made it sound like it cut through the wound like a buzzsaw. In reality all bullets are only going to make one or two turns going through a person. They sold hunting bullets with the same design and eventually sold pistol bullets without the one or two page ad's making it seem like it chopped a person's innards to pieces!

In reality the Hydro-Shoks worked near perfectly with 12-14 inches of penetration and a big wound channel. The little post in the middle really worked, the same bullet without the post penetrated further but got far less expansion. The good thing, a lot of police forces used hydro-shoks and claimed they were kinder because you didn't have to shoot people as many times! I carry hydro-shoks so I can parrot the police forces if I ever had to shoot someone. "I was just being nice!(grin) I never heard of the hydro-shoks stopping someone from emptying a magazine in a shootout.

I suspect you both remember the shootout that got the 9mm a bad rep. The cops were shooting hardball, the bad guys weren't and the cops(FBI?) were just toting pistols. They had to borrow rifles from a nearby sporting goods to stop the bad guys who were wearing vests. After that the 9mm had a terrible rep.

I knew somebody that worked x-ray in an inner city emergency room. They would x-ray a banger. "Here is the nine he was shot with tonight. There are two old nines, a 25, a couple of 22 rimfires..." For some reason a lot of people toted hardball. Cycles good, probably the most reliable ammo but you could swisscheese somebody and not stop them.

Vietnam was still going on and a man working for me was retired military still in reserves. He was getting a divorce and got fed up with fighting with his wife and decided he would go to vietnam to get some peace! She heard he was at the enlistment office signing up for active duty. She came in the door, "You son of a bitch, you aren't going to vietnam and get killed on me! She shot him across the room seven times with a .25. Hard ball was all you could get back then for the 25 and he was walking around in a week or less, couldn't tell he had been shot in three weeks. My only thought was that was damned good shooting with one of the little .25's. I never did know exactly where he was shot.

One more tale, indicates how dangerous smoking is. Two in the morning, a man and his wife were arguing. She was out of cigarettes and wanted him to go get her some. He wanted to get some sleep. Before the argument was over she shot him four times with his 38Special service revolver, he shot her twice with a twelve gauge, all in a bedroom. Crazy thing, they both lived and of course got back together! Just a misunderstanding. It was just outside of the grounds of Ryan Airport and I knew some of the people that worked the scene. Two people shot to shit and all because of smoking.

Hu

An acquaintance back in the late 60s (early 20s, very muscular) was shot in the chest at close range with a .25 auto (wearing just a T-shirt). He only spent an hour or two in the ER. Showed me his X-ray later. Bullet was lodged in the chest muscle, just under the skin.
If I remember, it was Goldfinger, when chided re: the .25’s lack of effectiveness, claimed he would stick the barrel in your eye first.

 

[maha]

penetration is the most important part of it. not size or speed. although they help.

your body is elastic and what you see in those blocks of gelatin, most is temporary wound channel that almost instantly goes back to normal.

pistols only put holes in things. and a body has lots of empty space. most stop the fight not because they are dying but they see the light and stop.

 

[ShootingArts]

The Black Talon???

I think so but I wasn't sure enough to name it. I don't remember if that was the first name, the hunting round name, or the new name for the pistol ammo. Pretty sure it was the pistol ammo, I think the first name, seems like the second pistol name on reflection. All of this may be dead wrong though. It has been a long time ago.

An acquaintance back in the late 60s (early 20s, very muscular) was shot in the chest at close range with a .25 auto (wearing just a T-shirt). He only spent an hour or two in the ER. Showed me his X-ray later. Bullet was lodged in the chest muscle, just under the skin.
If I remember, it was Goldfinger, when chided re: the .25’s lack of effectiveness, claimed he would stick the barrel in your eye first.

I don't take any round lightly. A lot of people have been killed with BB guns and pellet guns. I know of two people shot in the head with a twenty-five. One was shot at about 75', killed him graveyard dead. Another one, was at contact range or close to it in a guy's forehead. Killed him graveyard dead too!

One of the most feared pistols in the old days, wild west days, was a .22. I think it was black powder and even more anemic than the modern .22 short. Somebody would often carry several of these little pistols and empty both in a person. This was before x-rays and all a doctor could do was probe, cut, and chase a bullet which might veer two or three times when it hit a bone or sometimes just heavy tissue. Before anesthesia for the most part too. The lead bullets coated with lard or grease had to come out. Often the patient didn't survive, even when they did it had to natural born suck!

Hu

 

[maha]

what was banned were the ones that had like a primer in them. scary but probably less deadly.
states did whatever they felt like .as new jersey still has having possession of hollow points is a felony.

and accidentally when going to the bahamas and have any cartridge in your bag you forgot about or didnt see and off to jail with you.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I think so but I wasn't sure enough to name it. I don't remember if that was the first name, the hunting round name, or the new name for the pistol ammo. Pretty sure it was the pistol ammo, I think the first name, seems like the second pistol name on reflection. All of this may be dead wrong though. It has been a long time ago.




I don't take any round lightly. A lot of people have been killed with BB guns and pellet guns. I know of two people shot in the head with a twenty-five. One was shot at about 75', killed him graveyard dead. Another one, was at contact range or close to it in a guy's forehead. Killed him graveyard dead too!

One of the most feared pistols in the old days, wild west days, was a .22. I think it was black powder and even more anemic than the modern .22 short. Somebody would often carry several of these little pistols and empty both in a person. This was before x-rays and all a doctor could do was probe, cut, and chase a bullet which might veer two or three times when it hit a bone or sometimes just heavy tissue. Before anesthesia for the most part too. The lead bullets coated with lard or grease had to come out. Often the patient didn't survive, even when they did it had to natural born suck!

Hu

The wonders of medicine. Nowadays, .22 is treated nothing more than a child's plaything. We mainly use it for target practice and hunting small game.