Materials and labor charges.

[s0lidz]

Speaking from the standpoint of a consumer, not a mechanic, I can say I would never pay any more than retail price for the cloth (and I would hope to get a discount for buying from the mechanic instead of any other retailer). If the mechanic was trying to overcharge me for it, I start looking for a new mechanic (I would no longer trust that mechanic to even do the labor). The easy methods for finding out retail price have already been discussed, so you cannot depend on ignorant customers to pay extra.

There are certain ways you could make extra profit on the cloth by disguising the $$ in your labor cost. The consumer never really finds out the real price they paid for the cloth, because you just add into your labor rate. You could get away with this in most cases. But this is dishonest in my opinion and I would never even consider it (if I were a mechanic). You would also have to worry about the educated consumers. For instance, Glen quoted me a shipping and set up price for a used Diamond table recently. I called Diamond to find out what they would charge for delivery and setup directly from their factory, and the price they quoted me was $200 more than Glen's price (even though distance was almost the same). So I knew the labor and delivery rate was very reasonable compared to the industry standard (I have also considered the fact that I did get my cloth from another source). However, the point is, it would be difficult to fool a customer who does their homework.

If you can take advantage of customers to make more money (and it works most of the time), more power to you. But as a consumer I can say I would feel cheated.

 

[Club Billiards]

Speaking from the standpoint of a consumer, not a mechanic, I can say I would never pay any more than retail price for the cloth (and I would hope to get a discount for buying from the mechanic instead of any other retailer). If the mechanic was trying to overcharge me for it, I start looking for a new mechanic (I would no longer trust that mechanic to even do the labor). The easy methods for finding out retail price have already been discussed, so you cannot depend on ignorant customers to pay extra.

If you can take advantage of customers to make more money (and it works most of the time), more power to you. But as a consumer I can say I would feel cheated.

Maybe I didn't clarify. I NEVER charge more than retail. What I charge is more than what it costs me. I profit, I don't price gauge. The hard part is that there are a bunch of places selling cloth online for close to what it costs me. The problem is it's so easy for these guys to use the internet to pad their own pocket with a few bucks instead of using it to maintain or improve the value of our products and services.

 

[s0lidz]

Maybe I didn't clarify. I NEVER charge more than retail. What I charge is more than what it costs me. I profit, I don't price gauge. The hard part is that there are a bunch of places selling cloth online for close to what it costs me. The problem is it's so easy for these guys to use the internet to pad their own pocket with a few bucks instead of using it to maintain or improve the value of our products and services.

Oh I understood your post just fine. I was just responding in general, not to anyone's specific post. I'm not even sure that anyone here has claimed they use any tricks to make more money. But I thought I would give my opinion as a consumer, mainly in response to this question:

Just wondering how many technicians would question the cost of changing the oil in their vehicle if the technician padded the cost of the oil, plus the labor for changing it. I'm not saying someone's not making money on the cloth, but how many people are suppose to make a profit on that rip of cloth. You already have the manufacture making a profit, the distributor making a profit, the retailer making a profit...and the technicians making a profit as well...plus labor?

To take a retail priced product, and mark that price up even more in order to make more money to me seems to be like double dipping the customer.

As for individuals being willing to make less profit to gain the business, that problem has been around for forever. It's called a price war and it exists in nearly every market. Take LCD TV's for example, they significantly lowered in value when Wal-Mart started lowering their prices.

Retailer competition increased significantly when the internet came out. If you want to be a cloth retailer I suppose you will have to compete like everybody else.

 

[ChrisShanklin]

To me, a technician/mechanic who has the customer buy the felt themselves is indicative of a side job kind of guy. Someone who does it on the side, and does not have a vested interest in where his business goes. I sell cloth, to customers on and off service work jobs. I don't charge a lot, but I am also not going to sell it to customers at cost.

Cloth, just like any other material, if bought by the customer, is bought at retails prices. Why should the mechanic make something on the felt if he is ordering it. I know if I called a plumber i wouldn't want to order the pipes, why should the customer have to order the felt when it is your job description to have contacts where you can buy felt from.

 

[realkingcobra]

Speaking from the standpoint of a consumer, not a mechanic, I can say I would never pay any more than retail price for the cloth (and I would hope to get a discount for buying from the mechanic instead of any other retailer). If the mechanic was trying to overcharge me for it, I start looking for a new mechanic (I would no longer trust that mechanic to even do the labor). The easy methods for finding out retail price have already been discussed, so you cannot depend on ignorant customers to pay extra.

There are certain ways you could make extra profit on the cloth by disguising the $$ in your labor cost. The consumer never really finds out the real price they paid for the cloth, because you just add into your labor rate. You could get away with this in most cases. But this is dishonest in my opinion and I would never even consider it (if I were a mechanic). You would also have to worry about the educated consumers. For instance, Glen quoted me a shipping and set up price for a used Diamond table recently. I called Diamond to find out what they would charge for delivery and setup directly from their factory, and the price they quoted me was $200 more than Glen's price (even though distance was almost the same). So I knew the labor and delivery rate was very reasonable compared to the industry standard (I have also considered the fact that I did get my cloth from another source). However, the point is, it would be difficult to fool a customer who does their homework.

If you can take advantage of customers to make more money (and it works most of the time), more power to you. But as a consumer I can say I would feel cheated.

I guess that's what I've been trying to say all along Cloth and labor are two different things. In my case, the last table I worked on is always the best table I've ever done, and it's because of that...that I never run out of work. I have no control over the pricing of cloth, I do however have control over my labor rates, and I do have control over what kind of job I turn out. I pay more attention to the job I do than anything else, and it's because of that...that I have enough work on the back burner so to speak to last me the next 2 years...LOL without anything new coming in which means that if I lose some of that work because I can't get to it in time...someone else is going to take the place of the work I can't get to. Which is why I'm very upfront with my labor, I have no need to disguise or hide it with trying to make a profit on the cloth as well.

Glen

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

To me, a technician/mechanic who has the customer buy the felt themselves is indicative of a side job kind of guy. Someone who does it on the side, and does not have a vested interest in where his business goes. I sell cloth, to customers on and off service work jobs. I don't charge a lot, but I am also not going to sell it to customers at cost.

Cloth, just like any other material, if bought by the customer, is bought at retails prices. Why should the mechanic make something on the felt if he is ordering it. I know if I called a plumber i wouldn't want to order the pipes, why should the customer have to order the felt when it is your job description to have contacts where you can buy felt from.

hmmm...well, I'd rather have the customer buy the cloth before I get there, because I'm not going to keep 17 different kinds of colors of Simonis cloth in my truck, in the hopes that I'll have the color of cloth the customer wants for one thing. Secondly, after talking with the customer, I will refer them to who I'd rather they buy the cloth from, and what kind of cloth I'd rather they buy, because I'm not going to install BS cloth, even if that's what the customer wants. I do draw the line on quality, when it comes to cloth. If it's not a cloth I'd install on MY pool table, I WON'T install it on someone elses table either If the customer insists I use something I don't endorce, then they can find someone else for the job as far as I'm concerned...that's just me, and how I look at things In the same respect, I won't work on junk pool tables either, just because I need to make a buck. If the table is junk, installing new cloth don't change it into a good pool table I'll pass

Glen

 

[LCCS]

tables

Glen, I would have to call you and advanced mechanic. Every mechanic needs to work with the junk and fix it correct before moving on to the next step. Meaning, do the job your self before telling some one how bad they did and not knowing what they did. There needs to be ranks for mechanics. Any ways bottom line, is that we all need to get together as mechanics and sell the cloth at a good price to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier. I would never and i do not think anybody should ever try to sell above retail. We need to stick together as mechanics and give the customer what they want. That way the customer is happy and have no problem paying our labor.
With as many websites out there cutting throats, we are all in the same boat. Lets get a union together and we buy all the cloth and supplies through the same supplier in that union of mechanics sells the supplies at set prices to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier. The customer still gets a good buy and good service and is happy.I think Glen has a grest ideal about getting us all together.
Thanks, Ron

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen, I would have to call you and advanced mechanic. Every mechanic needs to work with the junk and fix it correct before moving on to the next step. Meaning, do the job your self before telling some one how bad they did and not knowing what they did. There needs to be ranks for mechanics. Any ways bottom line, is that we all need to get together as mechanics and sell the cloth at a good price to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier. I would never and i do not think anybody should ever try to sell above retail. We need to stick together as mechanics and give the customer what they want. That way the customer is happy and have no problem paying our labor.
With as many websites out there cutting throats, we are all in the same boat. Lets get a union together and we buy all the cloth and supplies through the same supplier in that union of mechanics sells the supplies at set prices to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier. The customer still gets a good buy and good service and is happy.I think Glen has a grest ideal about getting us all together.
Thanks, Ron

Ron, you can make a sure bet just as soon as I get these DVDs made and they're in Simonis's distribution hands...THAT is the next thing on my plate, and you can take that to the bank

Glen

 

[LCCS]

dvd

Glen, Hold off on those dvds another year. There will be new technology out by then. First bata, vhs, dvd, next, Live to air seminar mechanics. LOL
Catch ya later.

 

[Club Billiards]

Oh I understood your post just fine. I was just responding in general, not to anyone's specific post. I'm not even sure that anyone here has claimed they use any tricks to make more money. But I thought I would give my opinion as a consumer, mainly in response to this question:




As for individuals being willing to make less profit to gain the business, that problem has been around for forever. It's called a price war and it exists in nearly every market. Take LCD TV's for example, they significantly lowered in value when Wal-Mart started lowering their prices.

Retailer competition increased significantly when the internet came out. If you want to be a cloth retailer I suppose you will have to compete like everybody else.

I guess maybe I misunderstood. As a retailer and a mechanic, I don't order my cloth from a retailer. I either go straight to the manufacturer or to the distributor for my supplies. Only cuts out a middle-man or so, but I definitely agree that we shouldn't be double dipping the customer. I think in my situation as a retailer, my pricing makes sense. I sell a product and a service associated with it. Some people call for the product and some people call for the service requiring that product. Either way, the price of the product is the same. It just makes sense for me to justify the cost of the associated service the way I have it priced.

In Glen's situation, more service (with some exceptions: Valley replacement rails, etc...), less product it makes more sense to price the service with the product as a necessary supply. I could be wrong, but I doubt Glen gets approached by very many people wanting to just buy the cloth from him and install it themselves. LOL

In my case, a pool room is my retail location as well as home base for my service business. With as many pool rooms as there are shutting down all over the country right now, I'll probably very soon be adopting Glen's approach!!!!

 

[realkingcobra]

I guess maybe I misunderstood. As a retailer and a mechanic, I don't order my cloth from a retailer. I either go straight to the manufacturer or to the distributor for my supplies. Only cuts out a middle-man or so, but I definitely agree that we shouldn't be double dipping the customer. I think in my situation as a retailer, my pricing makes sense. I sell a product and a service associated with it. Some people call for the product and some people call for the service requiring that product. Either way, the price of the product is the same. It just makes sense for me to justify the cost of the associated service the way I have it priced.

In Glen's situation, more service (with some exceptions: Valley replacement rails, etc...), less product it makes more sense to price the service with the product as a necessary supply. I could be wrong, but I doubt Glen gets approached by very many people wanting to just buy the cloth from him and install it themselves. LOL

In my case, a pool room is my retail location as well as home base for my service business. With as many pool rooms as there are shutting down all over the country right now, I'll probably very soon be adopting Glen's approach!!!!

There's room for more than one of us living in this Diamond truck...on the road

Glen

 

[Club Billiards]

Save me a seat! I'll try to remind you which pump is Diesel too! LOL When you coming back East?

 

[Dartman]

...The hard part is that there are a bunch of places selling cloth online for close to what it costs me. The problem is it's so easy for these guys to use the internet to pad their own pocket with a few bucks instead of using it to maintain or improve the value of our products and services.

...
As a retailer and a mechanic, I don't order my cloth from a retailer. I either go straight to the manufacturer or to the distributor for my supplies. .

I'm not following you.
First you say online retailers sell at close to your cost for cloth.
Then you say you order straight from the mfg or distributor.

Maybe you should specify which cloth(s) you sell.
If it's Simonis then all online retailers are bound to a minimum advertised price or higher otherwise someone from Gurnee, IL
will be raining heavy on your parade. Depending on where one buys from determines your profit on this cloth.

So if your cost on say 9' Simonis is close to what the online retailers are selling it for ($251) maybe you need to look for a new supplier.

 

[Dartman]

Any ways bottom line, is that we all need to get together as mechanics and sell the cloth at a good price to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier.

With as many websites out there cutting throats, we are all in the same boat. Lets get a union together and we buy all the cloth and supplies through the same supplier in that union of mechanics sells the supplies at set prices to the customer and get a kick back from the supplier.

Want to sell cloth? What a mechanic needs to do is establish an account with the cloth mfg or mfgs of choice, buy the cloth on your dime and then sell it to your customer at the going retail rate. Since you want to be in the cloth business you are entitled to make a profit on the sale just like any other retailer. Personally, I don't see any of the cloth mfgs expending the time or resources to be in the kickback business.

Most of the major billiard supply web sites are not into throat-cutting. We establish prices and they rarely change. On Simonis we are all at the same price. What differentiates us is the value-added we are willing to give to earn the customers business (ex. extra stuff the customer gets with an order).

Further - the number of "mechanics" that participate in this forum is negligible compared to All the "mechanics" doing work in the U.S. Now that doesn't mean the folks here shouldn't try to band together to strike deals with mfgs and distributors. The problem then becomes where's the guarantee for the mfg/distributor that certain mechanics will buy exclusively from them? There always seems to be a lowball better deal on eBay (or even on this forum).

I can say with some authority that for every table recovered by a "mechanic" in this country there are probably at least 5 where the table owner does the job himself and buys the materials thru either an online seller or local store. I think, as a whole, mechanics are getting less work because consumers are looking to save money on recovering jobs. Many table owners feel the job is not "that hard" to do - but naturally their results will vary. Not everyone needs or wants a pro setup table and are usually well satisfied with doing the job themselves. . On the other hand some diyers probably do a better job then most of the hacks masquerading as mechanics. Bottom line - the "best" job will always be done by qualified and experienced mechanics.

 

[Club Billiards]

I'm not following you.
First you say online retailers sell at close to your cost for cloth.
Then you say you order straight from the mfg or distributor.

Maybe you should specify which cloth(s) you sell.
If it's Simonis then all online retailers are bound to a minimum advertised price or higher otherwise someone from Gurnee, IL
will be raining heavy on your parade. Depending on where one buys from determines your profit on this cloth.

So if your cost on say 9' Simonis is close to what the online retailers are selling it for ($251) maybe you need to look for a new supplier.

Would Simonis be an ok supplier for my Simonis order? I was mainly talking in general. I've had customers call me to recover a 9' table in Simonis for them...they'll provide the cloth. Then tell me they ordered it on eBay for $150. WTF? Maybe I should start ordering my cloth from eBay too!!!! LOL

 

[realkingcobra]

Save me a seat! I'll try to remind you which pump is Diesel too! LOL When you coming back East?

Sometime this month, I'm going to be in Boston before the end of the month one way or another

Glen

 

[Dartman]

Would Simonis be an ok supplier for my Simonis order? I was mainly talking in general. I've had customers call me to recover a 9' table in Simonis for them...they'll provide the cloth. Then tell me they ordered it on eBay for $150. WTF? Maybe I should start ordering my cloth from eBay too!!!! LOL

Talking in general and contradicting ones self are two different things. Regardless -
Ordering direct from Simonis is always a good idea assuming you meet their terms.

As for eBay it's a joke. I can see an individual trying to sell 1 rip of cloth but then there's some that just try to lowball prices. Have some confidence that Simonis does try to monitor eBay Simonis listings.

I just looked and here's a good one. Rockwell has Simonis at MAP prices on BIN + shipping of like $16. You could go to their website, or ours for that matter, and get the same cloth price with free shipping.
Some peeps just loveee eBay for the greatest deals on earth.

 

[pern13]

dartman can i get a kickback on m77 adhesive the professionals choice. you list for 14.75 a can. i will buy only from you if you give me a kickback that makes it cheaper than 9.99 which is what it costs at any lowes.lol

 

[realkingcobra]

dartman can i get a kickback on m77 adhesive the professionals choice. you list for 14.75 a can. i will buy only from you if you give me a kickback that makes it cheaper than 9.99 which is what it costs at any lowes.lol

I think you'd be surprised as to how many places there are in this country that don't have a Lowe's or Home Depot around them with in driving distance I don't think Rick is in the business of competing with Lowe's as much as he's in the business of convince for the customer selling of supplies for his customers If people wouldn't mind, I didn't start this thread to pick on anyone, I started it to talk about the differences between the price labor and cloth when recovering pool tables for mechanics, and my feelings about separating the two charges

Glen

 

[Dartman]

dartman can i get a kickback on m77 adhesive the professionals choice. you list for 14.75 a can. i will buy only from you if you give me a kickback that makes it cheaper than 9.99 which is what it costs at any lowes.lol

LMAO - No.
BTW it's 9.87 at home depot last I looked.