Math & pool

NineBallNut

NineBallNut

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I need to know your opinions. Does one have to be good in math and physics to be a top level player? The reason I ask is I see all these articles on kicking and different things that have formulas to figure out. The amature physics for the amature player article starts of with all these formulas. Since I'm a dumb *ss.... can I never have top notch skills or will just trial and error and lots of practice suffice? To clarify, I am not talking about the kicking by diamonds or using numbers by segments and multiplying and stuff.
 
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NineBallNut said:
Maybe I'm destined to be a pool moron, but I need to know your opinions. Does one have to be good in math and physics to be a top level player? The reason I ask is I see all these articles on kicking and different things that have formulas to figure out. The amature physics for the amature player article starts of with all these formulas. Since I'm a dumb *ss.... can I never have top notch skills or will just trial and error and lots of practice suffice? To clarify, I am not talking about the kicking by diamonds or using numbers by segments and multiplying and stuff.
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NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

j/k :D

Someone asked Kieth Mccready once when or if he learned the math and physics behind the game. He said that he never did. Although technically pool is a game of physics geometry and math knowing the formulas will have absolutely no bearing on your game at all. That being said every sport is based on physics and geometry, but I wouldn't expect to find a pro tennis player or pro bowler who knew the equations.

I have a remedial understanding of how things work, such as throw occurs because the ball is spinning sideways which effects how the object ball comes of it. But I don't believe that has any bearing on my play.

The more you have to think at the table the more there are to go wrong. Besides with certain tournaments that have shot clocks you don't have the time work out the equations.

My advice, learn everything you can about the stroke and stance and other basic fundamentals (never think that you know everything), learn systems (not formulas) if you find them helpful, and just have fun learning. There is alot that will come through trial and error.

The only mental part that you might want to work on, outside of position play, is strategy. When to play safe when to attack, the pushout etc. I like to play chess to keep my strategic mind sharp.
 
I will tell you what started me thinking of this. I was looking at some information about kicking. In this particular situation the person was talking about kicking from corner to side pocket. easy enough. But he then said that your tip position to the side to get natural roll effects off the rail was 2/5 the distance from cue ball to rail. Does it all have to be so difficult to figure?
 
NineBallNut said:
Does one have to be good in math and physics to be a top level player?
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LOL - Interesting. There was once a Thread in which some Posters suggested that dumber people make better players. :eek: Really. The concept was that since they are less-smart, they have less to think about. Ergo, it is easier for them to totally focus on the shot, since they have nothing else to think about! No smarts to clutter up the old noggin! :eek: :) :) Really - it was about a year ago. It should be in the Archives, unless shorty found it offensive and had it deleted :) :D J/K!

I think that top players have a comprehensive understanding of the geometry of pool, whether they can verbalize it, teach it or explain that "the angle of the dangle is equivalent to the mass of the ass" or not...
 
Lerning the goemetry and how to apply the physics to it, will greatly shorten your learning curve while practicing. Spend a week to learn these and shave years off your curve. Really, it will...

I fully understand the physics and math. I don't use that info while playing, but I do use it while practicing.

There is not much to it. Just some basic rules to follow in the physics department and the math part can be simplified by memorizing known starter lines.
 
i'll second what captive bred posted. there is no need to go into the depths of coefficient of friction and perfect spheres etc., but knowing some of the angles really helps with position and breakouts etc. I can't tell you how much it has helped my 8 ball game for breakouts. Can you learn that stuff from pure practice time? Sure, probably hundreds of players have done it over the years. But knowing the little things like that will surely synergize to make your game better.
 
Nah......just knock the pretty balls around and see what works for making them disappear into the pockets. Occasionally you come across something exciting like the "GHOST BALL SYSTEM" or glitzy like the "Diamond System" or entertaining like "BANKING WITH THE BEARD". Mostly it's just "how do I make this stick cause that ball to make that other ball in that pocket and leave me able to hit this other ball on my next shot".;)

Terry< JMHO....but David Alciatori and Colin Colenso may disagree.:D
 
I think pool is more a game of logic.

As for good players, most of the ones I have met have either been simpletons or just plain brilliant.
 
CaptiveBred said:
I fully understand the physics and math. I don't use that info while playing, but I do use it while practicing.
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How????????????

It wont show you how the cue ball will come off the object ball. I do have an understanding of why everything happens the way it does, but all of the choices I make are based on past experiences, not formulas.

I am an advocate of being natural while playing, whether it be in practice or in match play. In order to be natural in match play you have to practice that.
 
NineBallNut said:
Does one have to be good in math and physics to be a top level player?
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To disprove the statement, "All top level players are good in math and physics", you need to find only one counterexample. :)
 
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NineBallNut said:
... Does one have to be good in math and physics to be a top level player?...
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Unless the pros are all concealing their Degrees, you don't have to understand the physics in its more formal mathematical form. But you do have to learn it in whatever way the brain stores this stuff as you acquire experience. The explanations that physics provides can help make sense of some of these things and thus speed up that casual type of learning. But if you have no taste for it, don't worry, it isn't necessary.

Jim
 
hilla_hilla said:
I think pool is more a game of logic.

As for good players, most of the ones I have met have either been simpletons or just plain brilliant.
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It would seem that the former is more common. ;)
 
Jal said:
Unless the pros are all concealing their Degrees, you don't have to understand the physics in its more formal mathematical form. But you do have to learn it in whatever way the brain stores this stuff as you acquire experience. The explanations that physics provides can help make sense of some of these things and thus speed up that casual type of learning. But if you have no taste for it, don't worry, it isn't necessary.

Jim
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I think this says it all. Before I started reading this forum, I used to think I knew physics as throughly as any pool player, now I know there are people who have put wayyyy more thought and analysis into it than I have, but what it boils down to is you should know the "cause and effect" physics of pool, but you really don't need to know any of the math. The only numbers I ever think about in pool are 90 and 30, which are common CB to OB path angles, stun shots producing a 90 degree angle (between CB and OB), and most natural roll shots producing about a 30 degree angle (between CB before contact and CB after contact).

I think to be a complete player, you need to know about draw, force-follow, stun, and roll, side-spin, friction, throw, squirt, swerve, rail compression, and how all these things interact with each other to make the balls do what they do. But really, you just need a good mental model of how to put these variables together and what they make the balls do; you don't need to know fomulas and math. Formulas and math are for us physics nerds to use to explain what good players already know about what the balls do on the table.

-Andrew
 
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NineBallNut said:
I will tell you what started me thinking of this. I was looking at some information about kicking. In this particular situation the person was talking about kicking from corner to side pocket. easy enough. But he then said that your tip position to the side to get natural roll effects off the rail was 2/5 the distance from cue ball to rail. Does it all have to be so difficult to figure?
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Anything can be over-analyzed. If you were to shoot the same kick shot you mentioned 100x, you'd have a better feel for it than before the 100x. The 2/5 thing might never be realized by you, except in practice.

Unlike the application of mathmatical formulas, the executution of ccompetent pool requires a physical aspect that can only be learned from, well, execution.

It took me 3 tries to get a C in calculus. I feel I am math retarded (side pocket retarded too!), but I can play decent pool.
 
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Diamond system...

I read Willie Hoppe's book...don't remember the title...and was introduced to the diamond system...and a small brochure that was simple to understand...long time ago...and it helped my pool game tremendously.

Paul Brouilette, a physics teacher at the University of Lowell...again some time ago...invited me to help him teach a class. We met at the local pool room and played a race to 5 9-ball. I did a few trick shots that Paul discussed with the class. It was a great time for me...and some of that stuff I understood but lots of it was way over my head.
 
A math background won't help you at all unless you're a system player and then it will only help you calculate faster, not stroke any more accurately.

I got straight A's in four semesters in calculus and I would get drilled by any number of run-out players who can't count to 10. My friend is an excellent player, basically pro, and I occasionally show him some systems from books like Walt Harris' Billiards Atlas. What I noticed is he has no systems for almost any shots, but can use feel/talent to get the same results he can with a system. Math talent helps you use sytems and adjust them faster, but if you can't hardly count then systems might be hard for you. Slow system players, usually 70 year old billiard players with little notebooks they carry around, are a bane to billiards. Waiting 5 minutes for some old timer to do his counting and then miss by two diamonds because he forgot to carry-the- 2 is brutal.

You can buy books on the physics of pool, but doing integral calculus, figuring coriolis forces, angular momentum, etc... won't really help you run out.
 
Different people's minds work in different ways. Some adapt well to systematization and others seem to develop an intuitive method...though it maybe just a different form of a system that they cannot express concisely. But all good players have knowledge. They can make predictions about where the balls will go and execute accordingly with a pretty high level of accuracy.

No doubt many who analyze their methods using physics suffer distractions at times, if not paralysis by analysis. Also, many so-called feel players are held back by their lack of understanding of systems that could better predict some of their shots.

One thing that all great players have in my observation, is an ability to focus and a deep knowledge of most of the shots they choose to execute, in so far as knowledge that pertains to achieving the desired goal.
 
I am great at math and geometry. All the bank books and sytems are great to help explain how to figure out a bank or kick. I am a show me type of guy. I need to see it to believe it. If I stand there and mathamatically try to figure out a shot I will more than likely miss. If I just use my gut feeling I will usually make it. There are too many factors involved for pure science or theory to work. Use the sytem to learn how english and speed affects the shot but the only way to get good is to experiment and practice.
 
Thanks for all your replies. I'll just keep practicing and stick to the basic calculations for kicks and stuff and let my experience teach me the rest. There are just so many different systems out there that I'm always trying a new one and end up mixing to together accidentally and screwing up big. Kicking out of safes is my biggest weakness.
 
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