supergreenman said:You won't let her? what she doesn't have a mind of her own?
WORMS!..................EVERYWHERE!
Somebody get me another can!!!!!!
Maybe somebody can explain this to me..
- Thread starter PlynSets
- Start date
WORMS!..................EVERYWHERE!
Somebody get me another can!!!!!!
BazookaJoe said:
let me know when you get it, I've got this great opener I'm just dying to use. PlynSets said:
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gambling? league players?
Plynsets --- Would expect a very low percentage of the members here feel gambling is a negative influence on pool, except for the dastardly acts of "dumping" brought up by Willie and others. Dumping may be the #1 factor holding back corporate money for pool. Blah TV ratings is #2.
I'd love to see the top players gambling sessions televised. Including the woofing/negotions etc... With current laws it's not possible but it would certainly stir the general publics interest more than $1,500 for first place. Higher TV ratings are necessary to draw a more meaningful amount of corporate money.
Why your bitterness towards league players Plynsets? Maybe the skill level is different in S. Cal? League doesn't necessarily mean all are bangers. We spend money, have fun and many of us are smart enuf to actually work towards improving our skills. My small city recently finished 1,2,3,4 in the Open Division of a 520 player, four state regional tourney in Nebraska. League players won 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the tough Masters Division. In this area the top 25% take their league play very seriously and often it's a warm up to the gambling afterwards. As long as the family doesn't suffer, a reasonable bet just spices up the fun.
Plynsets --- Would expect a very low percentage of the members here feel gambling is a negative influence on pool, except for the dastardly acts of "dumping" brought up by Willie and others. Dumping may be the #1 factor holding back corporate money for pool. Blah TV ratings is #2.
I'd love to see the top players gambling sessions televised. Including the woofing/negotions etc... With current laws it's not possible but it would certainly stir the general publics interest more than $1,500 for first place. Higher TV ratings are necessary to draw a more meaningful amount of corporate money.
Why your bitterness towards league players Plynsets? Maybe the skill level is different in S. Cal? League doesn't necessarily mean all are bangers. We spend money, have fun and many of us are smart enuf to actually work towards improving our skills. My small city recently finished 1,2,3,4 in the Open Division of a 520 player, four state regional tourney in Nebraska. League players won 2nd, 3rd and 5th in the tough Masters Division. In this area the top 25% take their league play very seriously and often it's a warm up to the gambling afterwards. As long as the family doesn't suffer, a reasonable bet just spices up the fun.
The reason I started playing pool was the movies The Hustler and The colour of money. This and the thrill of betting on my self, and finding out if im the best in the room. The way pool has become now, silent, slow and boring and family oriented might be fine for some but for me it’s the end of how I see pool playing. The colourful people give way for "athletes" and people who eat and sleep healthy and hype the "church" style of pool playing. I know that a lot of people want to see pool in the Olympics and make the game "clean" or at least as clean as poker. And I don’t understand the people who make the comparison between pool and golf, thinking pool can be the same as golf. Pool is a backroom hustling game and golf is an upscale rich man’s activity, the general public will newer take to pool as it has taken to golf because of the history of pool.
And Paul Newman is a great actor.
And Paul Newman is a great actor.
PlynSets said:
quitecoolguy said:
All in all, I think my intent of the thread got sidetracked.. The intent was to say why do people keep making little snide remarks about gambling/gamblers etc..
Ultimately, while I do regret coming down on the league players so hard.. I'll be damned if I won't stick to what I said.
I think my wording came out a little different then I wanted too. I'll also say I'm responding to a couple posts here, not just this one.
As far as the league players placing 2, 3, 5th in the masters tournament. Refer back to what I originally said. The toughest league players for the most part (in my limited experience) didn't get good playing leagues. The leagues were joined after the fact. I'm not saying there isn't any players that haven't come up through the ranks playing leagues, just % wise, a far greater # of tough players came up the.... (looking for the right word here) "Traditional" way.
Now onto this post right here.. By your own words
But is the "league" itself sharpening your game?
Or is
Sharpening the game..
I don't know you or the situation, and I'm certainly not going to disect your life based upon one post becuase that would be stupid to make those kind of assumptions. I'd just ask if what I said does in fact hold true to yourself? Did you in fact get good gambling, and then lay off.. Only to return to league? Point in fact you were good before you joined the league.
Probably the thing that is most sharpening the game if I had to guess.. I could be wrong, hell maybe league play does improve ones game.. It's just been my experience that most league players either
A. Go out and get shitfaced on league night.. (more of a social thing then a pool thing.)
B. Are looking for an excuse to get out of the house
C. Have no interest in trying to improve their game. They are a level "3" and are happy with that.
I struggle to believe that playing on beat up bar tables, and travelling from bar to bar to play other bangers is some way to magically get good in a hurry.. Vs. learning how to play under pressure (gambling) on good equipment (pool hall vs bar) against better players.
Part of the reason why I was all for my g/f joining this particular team, is becuase the bar owner actually has 2 4x8's with simonis 860 on them, and a 3.5 x 7 with simonis on them. The pockets seem to be a little tighter then your average bar box, and their team plays in house.. (meaning other teams come there to play. I'm not quite sure how that works, but that's the way it is.)
She has a couple guys (team captain is a friend of mine) that play pretty strong, and also came up the "traditional" way so I'm not opposed to her playing with those guys, and picking up what she can..
On the flipside though, I went to their last league match last monday.. One of their opposing teams was playing and I was sitting there watching. This guy was giving advice via a "time out" to a lower levelled player on his team. I guess that's part of the reason why I don't think I'd be telling her to get to heavy into the league thing was
A. Hearing the advice some of these so called "upper" players were giving..
B. The high 5's after making a ball.. ???
C. The ridiculous amount of bad etiquette/sharking that was going on..
I could go on..
I guess what I'm saying is, I've been in bars (by chance) when there was a league night, and it doesn't seem to me to be "serious pool" more of a social interaction then anything. Late nights in a players hall, for the $$ is about the epitomy of serious pool in my lowly, probably incorrect, misguided opinion.
As far as the..
She's a firecracker no doubt.. LOL She definatley makes up her mind and goes with whatever it is she decides. But ultimately I think she has enough faith in me (spending I dunno.. my whole damn life in pool rooms) to figure that I probably know what's best for the long term goals that we have set in her game.
At the end of the day.. if the argument is whether or not league players are bangers are not? I'm sure there's some percentage that aren't.. I'm sure there is a percentage of them that are. My statement though I believe holds true. A large % of great league players in fact learned by playing sets, and joined league after the fact.
DJ
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Purdman said:
Where did I name call? Only thing I said was the guy that wrote the article was a "dip****." I told a person that referred to a person such as myself to be garbage to "STFU" which in retrospect was probably a bit harsh, but hey.. it is what it is. I wrote it, and I'll stand by it. I didn't say "every" league player was a banger. If you actually read what I wrote, it might make more sense to ya..
I said it "seems" like 95%
The ones that aren't didn't come up through the leagues..
Sorry if I offended you, I certainly didn't mean too. Just wondering why some guy (actually multiple people recently) can come on here and call the vast majority of "players" (using that term "player" for what it is.. not BANGER) garbage, and people don't say anything about it? If nobody else will, I certainly have no qualms about doing it.
DJ
OK, it's time for the dissenting opinion.
Gambling is bad for pool because it changes the game completely. The objective in pool is to win pool games. The objective in gambling is to win the money. When you put the two together, the objective remains to win the money, the pool is secondary. In few other sports/games does a participant have a good reason to play below their abilities, except when trying to win the gambling game. Rarely will a competitor intentionally loose a game, except when the objective of winning more money is advanced. The "action reports" so beloved on this forum have very little to do with the game of pool, they report more on the dollars that change hands. I could give a rats ass about the money that exhanges between people thousands of miles away. On the other hand I would love to hear about their games, strategy, and shot execution. That is about pool.
By forcing the gambling issue ("you gotta gamble to get good at pool" mentality) you add another barrier to developing pool skills, an acceptance of gambling. Life is no game. To risk your well-being on a game is irresponsible ... loose and you'll go hungry, what a silly concept. It surely keeps otherwise talented (and intelligent, if I may) people away from the game, and that can't be good for pool.
By associating money and gambling with pool advancement you create a scenario where nobody is motivated to coach other players. This is a common trait in pool players where they will not help you because you might win their money some day. This keeping knowledge and techniques hiden cannot be good for the game. It IS good for the person with the knowledge, they can use it to win more money, but you asked about the 'good of the game'.
The money is simply a motivation in this case folks. If you get all motivated because of the money, so be it, although investing the same effort into endeavors like our friend KT will pay off much better than investing all that effort into the game of pool. For myself pride in my game and relative competitiveness are motivation enough, although I am sure trying for the $700 first place money in our league (currently sitting in 2nd with 2 weeks left)
Dave, all snug in his flame-proof suit, blast away
Gambling is bad for pool because it changes the game completely. The objective in pool is to win pool games. The objective in gambling is to win the money. When you put the two together, the objective remains to win the money, the pool is secondary. In few other sports/games does a participant have a good reason to play below their abilities, except when trying to win the gambling game. Rarely will a competitor intentionally loose a game, except when the objective of winning more money is advanced. The "action reports" so beloved on this forum have very little to do with the game of pool, they report more on the dollars that change hands. I could give a rats ass about the money that exhanges between people thousands of miles away. On the other hand I would love to hear about their games, strategy, and shot execution. That is about pool.
By forcing the gambling issue ("you gotta gamble to get good at pool" mentality) you add another barrier to developing pool skills, an acceptance of gambling. Life is no game. To risk your well-being on a game is irresponsible ... loose and you'll go hungry, what a silly concept. It surely keeps otherwise talented (and intelligent, if I may) people away from the game, and that can't be good for pool.
By associating money and gambling with pool advancement you create a scenario where nobody is motivated to coach other players. This is a common trait in pool players where they will not help you because you might win their money some day. This keeping knowledge and techniques hiden cannot be good for the game. It IS good for the person with the knowledge, they can use it to win more money, but you asked about the 'good of the game'.
The money is simply a motivation in this case folks. If you get all motivated because of the money, so be it, although investing the same effort into endeavors like our friend KT will pay off much better than investing all that effort into the game of pool. For myself pride in my game and relative competitiveness are motivation enough, although I am sure trying for the $700 first place money in our league (currently sitting in 2nd with 2 weeks left)
Dave, all snug in his flame-proof suit, blast away
DaveK said:OK, it's time for the dissenting opinion.
Gambling is bad for pool because it changes the game completely. The objective in pool is to win pool games. The objective in gambling is to win the money. When you put the two together, the objective remains to win the money, the pool is secondary. In few other sports/games does a participant have a good reason to play below their abilities, except when trying to win the gambling game. Rarely will a competitor intentionally loose a game, except when the objective of winning more money is advanced. The "action reports" so beloved on this forum have very little to do with the game of pool, they report more on the dollars that change hands. I could give a rats ass about the money that exhanges between people thousands of miles away. On the other hand I would love to hear about their games, strategy, and shot execution. That is about pool.
By forcing the gambling issue ("you gotta gamble to get good at pool" mentality) you add another barrier to developing pool skills, an acceptance of gambling. Life is no game. To risk your well-being on a game is irresponsible ... loose and you'll go hungry, what a silly concept. It surely keeps otherwise talented (and intelligent, if I may) people away from the game, and that can't be good for pool.
By associating money and gambling with pool advancement you create a scenario where nobody is motivated to coach other players. This is a common trait in pool players where they will not help you because you might win their money some day. This keeping knowledge and techniques hiden cannot be good for the game. It IS good for the person with the knowledge, they can use it to win more money, but you asked about the 'good of the game'.
The money is simply a motivation in this case folks. If you get all motivated because of the money, so be it, although investing the same effort into endeavors like our friend KT will pay off much better than investing all that effort into the game of pool. For myself pride in my game and relative competitiveness are motivation enough, although I am sure trying for the $700 first place money in our league (currently sitting in 2nd with 2 weeks left)
Dave, all snug in his flame-proof suit, blast away
How could I blast away at that.. It's a well written, thought out, post. Plus your name is Dave so you couldn't be all half bad of a guy.
DJ = Dave Johnson.. I disagree with the post, but I can understand the sentiment. I'll take the time to make a nice advocating post later, but unfortunatley I'm slammed at work right now, and much beyond the occasional browsing I don't have time.
My initial post was pretty harsh (and in rereading it, possibly outta line), but it was coming off a rant that ended with calling people like myself "garbage" and "low lifes" of the game etc.. Which is the reason why I came out with both barrels blazin.. I love to debate (intelligently) and wouldn't lower to "flaming" someone for having an opinion different then mine.
DJ
Gambling, bad for poo?
I don't think gambling is bad for pool. The overall seedy characters that it attracts (drug dealers, grifters, drunks and the like) are bad for pool.
I don't think gambling is bad for pool. The overall seedy characters that it attracts (drug dealers, grifters, drunks and the like) are bad for pool.
PlynSets said:
I just read the article in Inside pool....The writer is a Bigtime Jackass...Its a bunch of guys gambling Big deal...He makes it out to be the lowest common denominator people...Hey Buddy reguardless of what you think or write it will be back next Year....You should have been there when there were open card games right next to the Pit..If you don't like gambling fine but don't make it Sound like somebody else's FUN is the most dispicable thing on Earth...I'm pretty sure this Mark Margaretten took an open shot at Gay lifestyles in his first Paragraph too...So he's covering all the bases...JACKASS
Hey Plynset..
Cool way to look at my post.. I will be totally honest the two hours 3 or 4 days a week does help big time..as well as practicing Bert Kinister 60 min workout those days..
However It during League play that i get to see it all come together. its a challange to run more balls than a lesser player or more than a higher player..I learn during those matches what works and what i need to tighten up on. Since i have played in some semi hefty money games i can tell you playing all the diffrent types of people that you run into at league is excellent practice..you have some people who take their losses like a true sport, others get behind and try and shark you, others look at you like you the second coming of christ and dont understand how anyone can play that good (i like those people ) Here in Richmond..we play on nice equipment. Conlley, Brunswick 9 ft tables for league night. Depending on where you shoot. I think that Richmonders dont do so well via APA nationals ..i think due to table size ..but that something else..
I will say this ..my old pool room i used to shoot in had a really cool teeshirt..it said
"YOU PLAY TEAM SPORTS TO FIND OUT HOW GOOD Y'ALL ARE YOU PLAY POOL TO FIND OUT HOW GOOD YOU ARE"
good luck Plynset with what ever you choose to get your game up ..its all good..i say playing pool either for money of league is still playing pool and in my eyes that great.
And if two guys want to be their hard earned dough on a game ..then damit thats there right..hey it been taxed once so to me it just a fair exchange of one persons skill over another..with a wager upon it.
Hey while im at it ...im sorta new to the forum..nice to meet everyone..but do you guys wear anything to tournaments to show that you are a member of this forum so that other members can meet each other..is there a Azbilliards booth at the Valley Forge expo..if not maybe there should be..maybe a patch..just a thought I would love to meet some of you guys..if our team makes it past the Vegas Cup here in Richmond Va..i will see some of you in the Nationals in Vegas
Cool way to look at my post.. I will be totally honest the two hours 3 or 4 days a week does help big time..as well as practicing Bert Kinister 60 min workout those days..
However It during League play that i get to see it all come together. its a challange to run more balls than a lesser player or more than a higher player..I learn during those matches what works and what i need to tighten up on. Since i have played in some semi hefty money games i can tell you playing all the diffrent types of people that you run into at league is excellent practice..you have some people who take their losses like a true sport, others get behind and try and shark you, others look at you like you the second coming of christ and dont understand how anyone can play that good (i like those people
) Here in Richmond..we play on nice equipment. Conlley, Brunswick 9 ft tables for league night. Depending on where you shoot. I think that Richmonders dont do so well via APA nationals ..i think due to table size ..but that something else.. I will say this ..my old pool room i used to shoot in had a really cool teeshirt..it said
"YOU PLAY TEAM SPORTS TO FIND OUT HOW GOOD Y'ALL ARE YOU PLAY POOL TO FIND OUT HOW GOOD YOU ARE"
good luck Plynset with what ever you choose to get your game up ..its all good..i say playing pool either for money of league is still playing pool and in my eyes that great.
And if two guys want to be their hard earned dough on a game ..then damit thats there right..hey it been taxed once so to me it just a fair exchange of one persons skill over another..with a wager upon it.
Hey while im at it ...im sorta new to the forum..nice to meet everyone..but do you guys wear anything to tournaments to show that you are a member of this forum so that other members can meet each other..is there a Azbilliards booth at the Valley Forge expo..if not maybe there should be..maybe a patch..just a thought I would love to meet some of you guys..if our team makes it past the Vegas Cup here in Richmond Va..i will see some of you in the Nationals in Vegas
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My choices:
I can enjoy pool with my friends and play for some competition and win a few and go home before midnight...or
I can hang out at pool halls for all hours of the night, associate with people like you who insult me for who I am and for what choices I make in life. And I could put up with the those who haven't, and probably never will, figured out why they're unhappy (but excited about a bet!---ooooooh) and why they owe everybody and why normal people won't talk to them anymore, and who hide from creditors, and who don't have romantic realtionships as money gambled is more important than people close....etc. etc.
The attitude in your post is probably why some don't want to be gambling with you. Having to deal with that type of personality is just one reason why I quit it.
imho,
Jeff Livingston
I can enjoy pool with my friends and play for some competition and win a few and go home before midnight...or
I can hang out at pool halls for all hours of the night, associate with people like you who insult me for who I am and for what choices I make in life. And I could put up with the those who haven't, and probably never will, figured out why they're unhappy (but excited about a bet!---ooooooh) and why they owe everybody and why normal people won't talk to them anymore, and who hide from creditors, and who don't have romantic realtionships as money gambled is more important than people close....etc. etc.
The attitude in your post is probably why some don't want to be gambling with you. Having to deal with that type of personality is just one reason why I quit it.
imho,
Jeff Livingston
Gambling is what's keeping pool alive!
Like it or not, it's a fact. I personally feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with gambling on yourself or others on pool. I may not agree with the tactics some players use, but those who feel the overall concept of gambling is bad for the game or unneccessary for it's growth are simply naive. The country in the last twenty years, has changed it's attitudes tremendously on gambling. Gambling, or any money in all it's various forms, is what will primarily decide the overall popularity of pool, just like it has with other games and sports.
Like it or not, it's a fact. I personally feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with gambling on yourself or others on pool. I may not agree with the tactics some players use, but those who feel the overall concept of gambling is bad for the game or unneccessary for it's growth are simply naive. The country in the last twenty years, has changed it's attitudes tremendously on gambling. Gambling, or any money in all it's various forms, is what will primarily decide the overall popularity of pool, just like it has with other games and sports.
CrownCityCorey said:
Some of the legends of pool fit in with a couple of those categories.
BazookaJoe said:
Very true. There are many more legends that do not, though I know many that have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other as well.
We got em all
Come on, the news papers give daily updated odds on almost every professional sporting event even college football and basketball.
These odds are for what? Gambling!!!!
How come these other events don't get the bad rap pool gets when it comes to gambing?
These odds are for what? Gambling!!!!
How come these other events don't get the bad rap pool gets when it comes to gambing?
Tom In Cincy said:
One MAJOR difference is that these odds are for NON-PLAYERS to make wagers on sporting events. These same professional sports typically have rules against players betting on their own games. We know what happens when there is a mix of player and side bets in a contest ... the contest changes to 'how do we win the money', which may or may not coincide with the objective of a pool game, to win the game/set. This potential conflict of interest is why there are rules about players betting in professional sports. Ask Pete Rose if you don't believe me.
Dave
PlynSets said:How could I blast away at that.. It's a well written, thought out, post. Plus your name is Dave so you couldn't be all half bad of a guy.
This should help ... I can be quite a jerk in person
PlynSets said:
To equate gamblers with low lifes is unfair at best, I agree. Certainly there are instances of gambling low lifes, just as there are of gambling jet-setters. Many of my friends at the pool hall gamble, and these are very respectable people. I rarely gamble other than playing for the table time and occasionally for a beer. I just believe that 'gambling as a sports development strategy' is one of the worst possible models around, one that drives and/or scares people out, rather than bring them in.
Dave