Measles cueball vs Red Circle cueball weight differences

Try this for a test. Rack the balls with the one ball up front, break the balls as you normally would. Notice how they break apart/8 ball. Then re-rack the balls using any other ball for the point ball, break them again, do this several times, and you'll see that the balls break better using the one ball up front as opposed to any other balls. It's because the one balls density that it don't absorb the hit of the cue ball, therefor transferring more of the energy of the break to the rest of the object balls, giving you a better spread of the break.

Glen[/QUOTE]

It is funny that you say this about the difference in breaking the balls. I played a couple of weeks ago in Florida with the measel ball and I didn't feel like I was breaking them very good, I would have assumed that I was getting racked but I was the one racking them.:) So I blew it off that it was just in my mind. Then I play at my home room with a red circle and I'm hitting them ok. Then I go to Atlanta this last weekend and sure enough I break like crap with the measel ball. I have a measel ball that I will do a test with against the red circle.

Thanks for the information.

Ed
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you are talking about the Diamond coin-op mechanisms, I believe that they operate by "optical density" which means by color. The photodetector looks for a white or almost white ball. They do not operate by mass density.
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No, it detects density. Paint the red circle cue ball black, and it will still separate from the object balls.

Glen
 
JoeW said:
...
IPT cue ball = 5.4 oz (brand new less than 10 hours of use)
Centenial Blue dot cue ball from original set that is 15 years old with 1,000 + hours of play = 5.5 oz
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(I assume your Centennial ball is the one with the blue circle.)
The blue dot I can understand, having seen lots of worn down blue dots, but the IPT ball being light is really strange. Is it the same ball they were using in play?
 
SAP One ball = 5.75 Two ball = 5.8 (six - eight months old).

IPT one ball = 5.95 Two ball = 5.55 (new).

Centenial One ball = 5.75 Two ball = 5.9 (ten years old).

Blue dot came with the Centennial set. IPT came wih the set and has less than 10 hours of play. SAP came with the set about 8 months ago. Measels ball purchased about two weeks ago. Play an average of three hours per day.

All weights are estimates from a $20.00 scale that measues to the 1/3rd oz.

Just measured all of the SAP balls one through 15 and all weigh between 5.75 and 5.8 oz as best I can determine. They are close enough that it is safe to say that they all weigh about 5.75. The balls are about eight months old and have more than 500 hours of play.
 
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realkingcobra said:
No, it detects density. Paint the red circle cue ball black, and it will still separate from the object balls.

Glen
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From Diamond's website:

Patented optical density sensor built into the ball return system. Allows the player to use super Aramith Pro Balls? with the red circle cue ball. No longer do the amateurs have to play with an oversized or magnetic cue ball. Call us for details.
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http://diamondbilliardproducts.com/smartTable.htm

From wikipedia:

Optical density is the absorbance of an optical element for a given wavelength λ per unit distance:

OD_\lambda = {A_\lambda \over l} = -{1 \over l} \log_{10} T = {1 \over l}\log_{10} \left ({I_0 \over I} \right )

Where:

l = the distance that light travels through the sample (i.e., the sample thickness), measured in cm
Aλ = the absorbance at wavelength λ
T = the per-unit transmittance
I0 = the intensity of the incident light beam
I = the intensity of the transmitted light beam

Although absorbance does not have true units, it is quite often reported in "Absorbance Units" or AU. Accordingly, optical density is measured in ODU, which are equivalent to AU cm−1.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_density

Sorry, Glen, but you're wrong.

-s
 
If you take a look at the Super Arimuth magnetic cue ball for example, it weighs more than any other of the mentioned cue balls, BUT...that's because it's filled in with metal filings, which does not make it have a higher density, just heavier. So, though it weighs more, it's actually softer than any of the mentioned cue balls, which is why it can't be used on a Diamond coin-op table, to low of a density reading to return it. Bob, if a Diamond table separated by the color white, it'd separate any white cue ball, which it won't do.

Glen
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you are talking about the Diamond coin-op mechanisms, I believe that they operate by "optical density" which means by color. The photodetector looks for a white or almost white ball. ...
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So, I just got off the phone with Greg Sullivan, and the way he explained it is that a light is shined into the ball being checked and a sensor close by detects the light coming back out of the ball. Not just shined back from the ball but actually going into the ball and coming back out. A cue ball will pass more light this way. An object ball, with more pigment in the material, will block more light and give a lower reading, by maybe a factor of two. He says that the mechanism has nothing to do with mechanical density.
 
Information

We're getting a lot of good information in this thread. Joe, that was very interesting readouts you got.
 
Optical density is not the same as color (and definitely not the same as regular density). It's a little complicated, the wikipedia article helps some.

I do have a degree in engineering...

-s

p.s. I can't set up a table for crap.
 
p.s. I can't set up a table for crap.[/QUOTE]

Neither can I...LOL But I have to finish installing the rails on Mike Massey's billiards table so I can get the hell out of Utah....LOL

Glen
 
ok, here ya go......straight from my home table, measured on my digital scale.


measles ball = 5.905 oz or 167.5 g or 2584 gn

red circle = 5.820 oz or 165.0 g or 2546 gn

11 ball (centenial set, for reference) = 5.835 oz or 165.4 g or 2552 gn

the red circle is slightly smaller. i eyeballed it by racking it in the middle of 6 other balls, the red circle has a slight, but noticable gap.

the measles ball has a barely visable gap.

Personally, i think the measles ball plays better. i can draw it, follow it, stun it better than the red circle. ( when i say better, i mean better able to predict the outcome)

the only thing i can't do as well with it is jump it using my playing cue.

the red circle ball i can draw like crazy, but in force follow shots, it seems to deflect more.


i don't think the weight has anything to do with it. i don't think .085oz is enough weight difference to be the cause of the playing difference. (but what do i know?)

but i do know there is a noticable difference in play & jumping.
 
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JoeW said:
... All weights are estimates from a $20.00 scale that measures to the 1/3rd oz.
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Any chance of getting a postal scale with 1-gram resolution?

The differences among the object balls are astounding.
 
All weights are estimates from a $20.00 scale that measues to the 1/3rd oz.

Just measured all of the SAP balls one through 15 and all weigh between 5.75 and 5.8 oz as best I can determine. They are close enough that it is safe to say that they all weigh about 5.75. The balls are about eight months old and my best estimate is that they have more than 500 hours of play.

Sorry Bob - haven't got one at the house. Next I will measure IPT balls and "old" Centenials.
 
I thought I'd throw one more variable into the mix as far as ball movement and weight go when talking about the various cueballs.

Perhaps the old red circle cueball has a greater proportion of mass near the surface of the ball...giving it a higher moment of inertia thereby enabling it to retain spin slightly longer than other balls which have uniform density. This is just a suspicion that I've had with no concrete evidence to back it up. Even brand new balls could weigh practically the same but still be affected by this.

edit: minor grammar issue
 
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Withe the exception of the IPT Two ball (5.55 - 5.6) all of the IPT balls weight in at about 5.75. There is a mark for 5.75 on my scale and other estimates are based on the needle being off this mark. The IPT 11 ball might be 5.8 and is a little heavier.

On the ten year old Centenials there is the most variance . The balls range from about 5.7 to 5.8 (eight ball and ten ball !) The twelve ball weighs in at about 5.6 and is the lightest ball in the set.

While these Centenials are 10 years old with at least 5,000 hours of play (given years I did not play as the table was stored) they are certainly in the same class with the newer balls. However, these are not pool hall balls and none of them (except the CB) have anything other than minimal scratches.

So all three sets are basiclly in the same range with obviously more consistency in the newer balls. The cue ball weight differences appear to be real.

Each ball was centered on the scale, with my eye in the same place and weighed at least twice in alternating sequences (one, two, three, one, two, three etc)

The SAPs appear to be the most consistent but we are talking tenth of an ounce so I don't think it is a real difference.
 
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I too have found, subjectively, that the measle ball is slightly harder to draw than the red circle. This may have something to do with the fact that I play with the two different cueballs in two different pool rooms, however, under different table and playing conditions.
 
The IPT CB definitely weighs about 5.5 - 5.6 oz. It came with the set and was given to me by a friend who bought the set on Ebay. I just checked it and there is a scratch, small divet in the CB. I have used it less than two hours as I did not care for the way it played. I have no idea who put the scratch in it and this may account for the weight difference.
 
Power Needed?

Bob Jewett said:
So, I just got off the phone with Greg Sullivan, and the way he explained it is that a light is shined into the ball being checked and a sensor close by detects the light coming back out of the ball. Not just shined back from the ball but actually going into the ball and coming back out. A cue ball will pass more light this way. An object ball, with more pigment in the material, will block more light and give a lower reading, by maybe a factor of two. He says that the mechanism has nothing to do with mechanical density.
Click to expand...

I am not doubting Bob's information but am curious. If the table has an optial sensor then it would need power for the sensor as well as power to activate a solenoid to route the cue ball. I don't know of any mechanical optical snesors. I don't recall seeing any pool tables plugged into an outlet nor have I heard of batteries being changed. Just curious as to how this works.
 
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