# Measles cueball vs Red Circle cueball weight differences

#### MacGyver

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow, i suddenly feel very worried hearing Glen use words like Weight, Density, Hardness/Softness and mass....

For the record you couldn't be more wrong, lets go over a few things:

Weight = Gravity * Mass, since we are going to say that gravity is equal for all pool tables, you can use Weight and Mass interchangeably for this discussion.

Density is Mass / Volume. *ALL* balls of the same size and weight will have the same Density.

Hardness is something mostly unrelated to Density, not used interchangably as you have used. For instance Diamond is less than half the density of steel yet it is much much harder.

Example of hardness vs density: A clay cueball and Aramith cueball that are both the same size and weight would have identical densities but the Aramith is obviously much harder than the clay.

In regards to your post, a normal pool table(non-magnetic, non-optical return) would work by measuring the Mass, and *NOT* the density(unless it is measuring the volume of each pool ball as well).

Super Arimuth magnetic cue ball for example, it weighs more than any other of the mentioned cue balls, BUT...that's because it's filled in with metal filings, which does not make it have a higher density, just heavier. So, though it weighs more, it's actually softer than any of the mentioned cue balls,

This couldn't be more *WRONG*!!!!!!

If the aramith magnetic cueball is the same size as any other cueball, then it is *IMPOSSIBLE* for it to weigh more and not have a higher density!!!!

Assuming the same size, mass will go up with density or mass will go down with density, you *cannot* change one without changing the other!

Furthermore, again it is neither "softer" nor "harder" based on the density but based on the material itself.

Please go read some websites or books and enlighten yourself instead of spreading around this compeltely false mis-information glen.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Kent said:
I am not doubting Bob's information but am curious. If the table has an optial sensor then it would need power for the sensor as well as power to activate a solenoid to route the cue ball. I don't know of any mechanical optical snesors. I don't recall seeing any pool tables plugged into an outlet nor have I heard of batteries being changed. Just curious as to how this works.
I think it's a battery with the innovation that the sensor is only turned on when a ball runs over a switch just before the sensor. That lets the battery last a lot longer.

#### shortman

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
there are actually 3 balls to consider

cubc said:
It appears to me after playing this weekend with the aramith measles cueball for a good 20+ hours and then going to the red circle (NOT barbox) cue ball that the red circle was much heavier and thus had better top english / centerball but took much more effort to draw as opposed to the measles ball which was the opposite. Follow and centerball on the measles took a bit more spin and draw was easier.

Can someone that has 2 of those balls weigh both and post the outcome please?

Thanks

There are actually 3 balls to consider here. I have all 3, there are 2 (red circles dot) and measle ball. One red dot has a brownish color to it and is the heaviest of the 3, the other red dot is solid white and near the same as the measle. Depending on what tourney I have coming up is the one I practice with at home.

cheers---------BW

#### mikepage

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think it's a battery with the innovation that the sensor is only turned on when a ball runs over a switch just before the sensor. That lets the battery last a lot longer.

Damn! I was really hoping the gravitational potential energy of the balls dropping into the pockets and rolling down to the sensor was at play.

#### desert1pocket

##### Registered Fish
Silver Member
All cueballs, with the exception of bar-box balls, as well as the object balls, are supposed to weigh the same. In reality this is not the case due to manufacturing tolerances and more importantly wear. If you were to weigh several of each type of NEW cueballs, you may be very surprised at the weight differences between balls even of the same brand. If you compare the weights of several new cueballs to those of some used ones, you may be shocked to see how much they wear in even a short period of time.
The weight and size does effect the playability, but it is very inconsistant from ball to ball even within the same type. The other factor in the way the balls play differently is the material the balls are made of. This stays constant even after wear. The blue circle is made of the same type of phenolic resin as the object balls, whereas the red circle is made from the same type of phenolic resin as carom billiard balls, and reacts differently. I can't remember offhand which one the measles is made of.

In summary, the difference you notice in the way different cueballs play is partly due to them being made of different materials, and partly due to a difference in size and weight, but the difference in size and weight has little if anything to do with the brand or type of cueball.

#### MacGyver

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mikepage said:
Damn! I was really hoping the gravitational potential energy of the balls dropping into the pockets and rolling down to the sensor was at play.

Heck, you could even build in some piezo-electric material into the cushions and draw some current everytime a ball hits a rail(might deaden the rails though a bit lol)

How about some magnetics in the cue, could induce a current everytime you take a practice stroke

#### Handsumm

##### Banned
steev said:
Density units are mass/volume (as in g/L)
Mass is constant (we'll use grams in this example)
Weight varies with the effect of gravity, and should not be involved in this discussion. Generally treated the same as mass on this planet.

so density x mass is useless (g*g/L).
density/mass yields volume, a function of diameter (4/3 pi * r^3).

relevant? i dunno...

-s

p.s. I thought Diamonds used an optical sensor?
Thank you, I was going to do that. I have no idea why someone would try to explain physics having NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER about the subject. As an engineer, and an avid poolplayer, this bothered me immensely.

#### Varney Cues

##### Handcrafted quality!
Silver Member
MacGyver said:
How about some magnetics in the cue, could induce a current everytime you take a practice stroke

How about it ZAPS your azz whenever you miss...great training tool!

#### shortman

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Varney Cues said:
How about it ZAPS your azz whenever you miss...great training tool!

LOL now thats what I need.

cheers---------------BW

#### Handsumm

##### Banned
I am glad we have all finally come to the conlcusion that Glen has no idea WTF he is talking about.

Having said that, all balls will have very slight variance in volume, mass, and therefore density, etc. and this is what causes differences in playability from one cue ball (or set) to another.

I also propose that the modulus of elasticity from phenolic resins used from one cue ball to the next might have some variance as well.

One thing to note is, as a previous poster said about moment of inertia, having more mass toward the outer edge of the ball will affect how it rolls. Maybe the super pro cup ball (measles) has a different moment of Inertia than that of the red circle and others due to the dispersion of mass throughout its whole. A homogenious ball should be the goal of manufacturers, but I suppose is almost impossible.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Kent said:
I am not doubting Bob's information but am curious. If the table has an optial sensor then it would need power for the sensor as well as power to activate a solenoid to route the cue ball. I don't know of any mechanical optical snesors. I don't recall seeing any pool tables plugged into an outlet nor have I heard of batteries being changed. Just curious as to how this works.
8 D batteries= 12 volts

Glen

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
belmicah said:
Thank you, I was going to do that. I have no idea why someone would try to explain physics having NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER about the subject. As an engineer, and an avid poolplayer, this bothered me immensely.
So, what you're saying is that a red circle cue ball, and a valley magnetic cue ball, both being 2 1/4" round, weigh the same?...LOL And should play the same?

Glen

#### shortman

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
So, what you're saying is that a red circle cue ball, and a valley magnetic cue ball, both being 2 1/4" round, weigh the same?...LOL And should play the same?

Glen

Mate-----------
I do not believe this is what the man was trying to say.

cheers---------BW

#### Handsumm

##### Banned
shortman said:
Mate-----------
I do not believe this is what the man was trying to say.

cheers---------BW
Thanks shorty. This guy's helpless.

#### juanbond

##### Software Engineer
Silver Member
belmicah said:
Thanks shorty. This guy's helpless.

I, too, was close to attempting to correct the gross physics mistakes earlier in the thread... But I just didn't care that much.

You guys summed it up well...mass, density, and especially density distribution, all affect the roll/play. Unless a ball has perfectly homogenous density throughout (practically impossible to be 100% homogenous), its center of mass will not coincide with spatial center of the ball, resulting in slightly untrue rolls and reactions.

#### LILJOHN30

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My measel cue ball draws like an artist?Wait maybe its my stroke!!!!

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...the draw and follow characteristics of a single ball are the same. If follow seems harder than draw with a given ball, the player just sucks at following...

Sorry, this isn't right. The important thing is whether or not the CB and OB are the same weight. If the CB is heavier than the OB, it will follow easier and draw harder. Vice verse if the CB is lighter then the OB.

pj
chgo

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
belmicah said:
Thanks shorty. This guy's helpless.
LMAO...Helpless???? I just thought I'd come in here and stir up some dust...LOL

I'm a billiards technician, not an enginear...LOL But...wasn't is enginears that designed an built the Titanic? OR...how about the bridge that collapsed in Minnisota?...LOL

Glen

#### MacGyver

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the Aramith is quoted as saying:

"Through-hardened phenolic resin offers the unique advantage of a completely stabilized material with homogeneous density dispersion throughout each ball"

Not that I'm an aramith fanboy or anything, but they do say its completely homogeneous(not that anything is 100% as you say)

#### curly

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It could also be the mold flow thermal characteristics when molding the balls. The temperature of the mold and how the material cools as the material enters the cavity during the molding process. Maybe some molds are setup different so the material tends to solidfy quicker rather than staying "liquid". The cooling of the mold also has an affect on this. I would think that not all molds or machines are exactly the same. I also wonder if there's a mold lube used to release the ball from the mold. Mold flow can be modeled but in practical use, the machines may be different. The resin or raw material recipe before entering the mold is another consideration. Are the raw materials used to make the red circle and measles balls identical? Are pressures constant during the molding cycle? Just thinking of some process and material variables that could contribute to differences.

Edit: What I think is that the weights may be the same but distributed differently throughout the ball...more or less in the center which would affect dynamics I think. Bob knows physics...which could be a reason for the differences even if the weight is the same.
Curly

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