metal rings

[rhncue]

The coefficient of thermal expansion for silver is 10X10^-6 in per in

(read as ...10 times 10 to the minus 6 inches per inch, per degree F.... or .000010 inches, per inch, per deg F)

Start with a silver butt ring at 1.25 in dia at 32 deg F

increase the temperature to 132 deg F

(100 deg difference to make the math easy)

100 deg times 10X10^-6 times 1.25 in =

1250 times 10^-6 = .001250 inches or about 1 and 1/4 thou.

So a silver butt ring will grow about 1 and 1/4 thousands of an inch if the temperature changes 100 degree F.

Would that make a ring pop? Maybe.

Remember, the ring is not only expanding and contracting in diameter but in width also.

I believe that the wood moves more than the metal ring. As the wood releases or absorbs moisture it changes size. I think finish keeps curing for a long time and shrinks down.

(this is called mental mastrubation)

lol

Kim

You did a lot of calculations that don't mean much on the cause nor cure of metal rings "popping" on cues. You seem to forget that very few metal rings are installed in cues abutting wood. They almost always are sandwiched between phenolic rings which are very stable themselves. They do not absorb moisture nor do they shrink nor contract with temperature changes. Rings that are adjacent to wood absolutely will be affected by wood movement.

Few lower end cues utilize silver rings as the rings cost more than the rest of the components in a cue put together. I don't know of any glue that will aggressively adhere to aluminum rings and nickle/silver rings, which by the way have absolutely no silver in them, are what most of the better factory and older custom cues utilize is probably the best, lower cost, rings to use even though they are harder on the tooling and dull or break router bits and saw blades very readily.

Dick

 

[whammo57]

You did a lot of calculations that don't mean much on the cause nor cure of metal rings "popping" on cues. You seem to forget that very few metal rings are installed in cues abutting wood. They almost always are sandwiched between phenolic rings which are very stable themselves. They do not absorb moisture nor do they shrink nor contract with temperature changes. Rings that are adjacent to wood absolutely will be affected by wood movement.

Few lower end cues utilize silver rings as the rings cost more than the rest of the components in a cue put together. I don't know of any glue that will aggressively adhere to aluminum rings and nickle/silver rings, which by the way have absolutely no silver in them, are what most of the better factory and older custom cues utilize is probably the best, lower cost, rings to use even though they are harder on the tooling and dull or break router bits and saw blades very readily.

Dick

What you say is true but I have seen metal rings adjacent to fiber rings or veneer rings.

I was trying to show that metal rings grow and shrink with temperature. Most people think you can feel the metal ring because it popped through the finish. That is not usually the case. The other components of the cue may be moving and giving the appearance that it was the metal ring that you feel. Besides that, I always wondered exactly how much the ring actually did move.

Given that a silver ring grows 1.25 thou in a hundred deg change, that is a little over 1/2 thou per side. You probably won't feel that anyway.

What is the coefficient of thermal expansion of the various phenolic materials??

I had a black fiber ring pop on a cue that I made. I have no idea why and it is the only one I have ever had do that.


I guess the point is that the QB must be careful building the cue and the owner must provide proper care or some components in the cue will move enough to be felt through the finish.


Kim

 

[Tommy-D]

I have no clue what Schon does to their metal rings,but my cue is 20 years old and there is no finish damage around the rings,and you simply can't feel them anywhere.

In my mind,it's a matter of weather-related care as much as whatever technique was used to cut them. Tommy D.

 

[KJ Cues]

What you say is true but I have seen metal rings adjacent to fiber rings or veneer rings.

I was trying to show that metal rings grow and shrink with temperature. Most people think you can feel the metal ring because it popped through the finish. That is not usually the case. The other components of the cue may be moving and giving the appearance that it was the metal ring that you feel. Besides that, I always wondered exactly how much the ring actually did move.

Given that a silver ring grows 1.25 thou in a hundred deg change, that is a little over 1/2 thou per side. You probably won't feel that anyway.

What is the coefficient of thermal expansion of the various phenolic materials??

I had a black fiber ring pop on a cue that I made. I have no idea why and it is the only one I have ever had do that.


I guess the point is that the QB must be careful building the cue and the owner must provide proper care or some components in the cue will move enough to be felt through the finish.


Kim

Kim,
Here's the flaw in your theory.
If just the ring were exposed to a 100* temp change, then yes, you would feel 1.25 thou. difference.
However, the entire cue is experiencing that temp. change and everything on the cue expands & contracts as a unit.
Granted, the various mtrls. may move differently to one another due to their density/composition but
your 1.25 thou is probably cut in half when everything expands together.
IMO and some others as well, one of the major obstacles to metal rings is that clear-coat doesn't adhere to it.
Ever notice that the flaking stops when it gets to the phenolic ring or the wood?
The clear adheres to these mtrls. but not to un-primed metal.
Mr. Neighbors knows of what he speaks.

KJ

 

[whammo57]

Kim,
Here's the flaw in your theory.
If just the ring were exposed to a 100* temp change, then yes, you would feel 1.25 thou. difference.
However, the entire cue is experiencing that temp. change and everything on the cue expands & contracts as a unit.
Granted, the various mtrls. may move differently to one another due to their density/composition but
your 1.25 thou is probably cut in half when everything expands together.
IMO and some others as well, one of the major obstacles to metal rings is that clear-coat doesn't adhere to it.
Ever notice that the flaking stops when it gets to the phenolic ring or the wood?
The clear adheres to these mtrls. but not to un-primed metal.
Mr. Neighbors knows of what he speaks.

KJ

You bring up a valid point and I am not discrediting anyone's thoughts on the subject. Everything is moving all the time because of, humidity, heat, cold, flexing, different materials, glue/finish adhesion problems.

Until someone does an actual scientific study/evaluation as to why rings pop, there will be many theories.

Kim

 

[fhopper]

Reading this last night made me wonder how many metal rings I have... to watch. Are the rings on those sticks typical of what is being discussed here? What location is most susceptible to "pop"?

 

[ddadams]

I know this thread is a bit older now but I'm glad I found it.

I was practicing earlier and felt the ring through the finish on one of my shafts for my Josey.

I wasn't sure if this was normal or not but now I'm really not that concerned at all.

 

[seahorse1877]

Once I cutt my rings with a router and they are final size I take a sharp cutting tool and undercut the ring just below the ajoining material. Sand, epoxy base coat, finish.

 

[poolshooter74]

i have a cue with metal rings set in phenolic that have popped. so i am thinking it has to do with the finish not adhering to the metal.