Minnesota Fats!

R

richiebalto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We hear all these stories that Fats really didnt play that good, i would like to hear from some of the few that were there at the time to see Fats play and what their opinoins are.

Did Fats play just good enough to win, hiding his true speed forever, or did Fats ever blow his cover and have to lay it all on the line? (as being in too tough of a game) and play better then anyone know he could.

Was Fats a better pool player then most of us think?

Or did Fats match up with the best of it all the time and then never had to play his true speed to win?
 
richiebalto said:
We hear all these stories that Fats really didnt play that good, i would like to hear from some of the few that were there at the time to see Fats play and what their opinoins are.

Did Fats play just good enough to win, hiding his true speed forever, or did Fats ever blow his cover and have to lay it all on the line? (as being in too tough of a game) and play better then anyone know he could.

Was Fats a better pool player then most of us think?

Or did Fats match up with the best of it all the time and then never had to play his true speed to win?
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Just watch him bank and control the cue ball. No scrub can walk up and slam them in 100% of the time like he did.
 
DTL said:
I heard he robbed Allen Hopkin's playing 1-hole getting 8-7 back in the early '70s.........for $20K. Jay may be able to confirm this. If true, that's a good indicator of how well he played.

Edit: I think I remember reading an article in the Billiards News titled "The $20K Lesson".
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If this happens to be true, I will have my answer!

Thank you D!
 
My take on this was always that back then the game that decided champions was straight pool. Fats couldn't play with those guys in that game.

Gambling I believe he always had the best of it and as far as player, I think he was a very strong shortstop at the least.
 
richiebalto said:
We hear all these stories that Fats really didnt play that good, i would like to hear from some of the few that were there at the time to see Fats play and what their opinoins are.

Did Fats play just good enough to win, hiding his true speed forever, or did Fats ever blow his cover and have to lay it all on the line? (as being in too tough of a game) and play better then anyone know he could.

Was Fats a better pool player then most of us think?

Or did Fats match up with the best of it all the time and then never had to play his true speed to win?
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Richie, having played Fat's several times, I can tell you how I rate his game..On a scale of 1 to 10, even in his prime, Fat's was never more than a strong 8 or weak 9 !..However, at hustling, matching up, and entertaining, he was an 11 ! ;)

If you have (or have access to) Eddie Robin's, "Shots, Moves and Stategies" there is a story regarding one of my sessions with Fatty, on page 299 !..Pay particular attention to two player's responses, at the end of the story, (Earl Heisler, and Jersey Red) both of whom knew him even better than I did..You'll find they concur with my take on Fat's as a player !

Fatty hitched his star to the character Jackie Gleason portrayed in the movie, "The Hustler" in 1961..and NO living human could have gotten more milage out of that move, than Fatty !..It made him a household name, instead of just a retired scuffler, known ONLY to pool insider's, as "New York Fat's"

There have been many threads, both here and at 'One Pocket.org' discussing Fat's skill level, at great length !.. One in thread particular, is titled.."Is Fats a Fit", (meaning a 'Fit' for the Hall of Fame) In the thread, you will find a lot of input, from some very knowledgable insiders, (ie; Grady, Cardone, Helfert, etc.) ! Give me a minute, and I will furnish a link..There is some aggravating "in-fighting" but once you get past that stuff, it is VERY informative, and a good read !

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3301&highlight=is+fats+a+fit&page=31


'San Jose' Dick Mc Morran
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Richie, having played Fat's several times, I can tell you how I rate his game..On a scale of 1 to 10, even in his prime, Fat's was never more than a strong 8 or weak 9 !..However, at hustling, matching up, and entertaining, he was an 11 ! ;)

If you have (or have access to) Eddie Robin's, "Shots, Moves and Stategies" there is a story regarding one of my sessions with Fatty, on page 299 !..Pay particular attention to two player's responses, at the end of the story, (Earl Heisler, and Jersey Red) both of whom knew him even better than I did..You'll find they concur with my take on Fat's as a player !

Fatty hitched his star to the character Jackie Gleason portrayed in the movie, "The Hustler" in 1961..and NO living human could have gotten more milage out of that move, than Fatty !..It made him a household name, instead of just a retired scuffler, known ONLY to pool insider's, as "New York Fat's"

There have been many threads, both here and at 'One Pocket.org' discussing Fat's skill level, at great length !.. One in thread particular, is titled.."Is Fats a Fit", (meaning a 'Fit' for the Hall of Fame) In the thread, you will find a lot of input, from some very knowledgable insiders, (ie; Grady, Cardone, Helfert, etc.) ! Give me a minute, and I will furnish a link..There is some aggravating "in-fighting" but once you get past that stuff, it is VERY informative, and a good read !

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3301&highlight=is+fats+a+fit&page=31


'San Jose' Dick Mc Morran
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This is just awesom, someone who really played and gambled against Mr.Fats, Thank you so much San Jose Dick, your History as a pool player SPEAKS VOLUMES FOR ITSELF Mr. San Jose!
 
Just to be brief, I watched him playing Ronnie Allen, when Ronnie was Ronnie, for big money. Fatty was certainly no short stop, he impressed the shit out of me. In his prime, I heard from people who would know, that Fatty was a top player.

You can read my further opinions in my book, The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers.

Beard

All I know is that he played Chicago Pony Rosen 8 to 7 in Bensingers in the 30s. Pony once beat Eddie Taylor there with the same game (not to say Fatty played Taylors speed). Pony lost to Rags there when Rags was the best player in the world, 8 to 7 and the break.
My opinion ( I also commented in that, is Fats a fit thread) is that Fatty in his prime was much better than an "8" ( as there was no one who was going to play him eleven to eight).

I was around Jersey Red plenty, and I never heard him knock Fats as a player. Never. Other resources I heard from in the Fats department were guys who played with him in the 30s and 40s, Marcel Camp and Gene Skinner.
 
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I remember reading in "Billiards: Hustlers and Heroes, Legends and Lies, and the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt" after Fats hustled Richie Florence that Fats: "is the best manager of himself, of a proposition, his cash, and other people. None of these factors has anything to do with how well he pockets the balls."
 
freddy the beard said:
Just to be brief, I watched him playing Ronnie Allen, when Ronnie was Ronnie, for big money. Fatty was certainly no short stop, he impressed the shit out of me. In his prime, I heard from people who would know, that Fatty was a top player.

You can read my further opinions in my book, The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers.

Beard

All I know is that he played Chicago Pony Rosen 8 to 7 in Bensingers in the 30s. Pony once beat Eddie Taylor there with the same game (not to say Fatty played Taylors speed). Pony lost to Rags there when Rags was the best player in the world, 8 to 7 and the break.
My opinion ( I also commented in that, is Fats a fit thread) is that Fatty in his prime was much better than an "8" ( as there was no one who was going to play him eleven to eight).

I was around Jersey Red plenty, and I never heard him knock Fats as a player. Never. Other resources I heard from in the Fats department were guys who played with him in the 30s and 40s, Marcel Camp and Gene Skinner.
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Fred,

Despite your obvious 'baiting', I refuse to infect this thread with our ongoing differences of opinion !..If anyone cares enough to read it, the link I furnished to the "Is Fats a Fit" thread, gives over 300 different versions of him and his accomplishments..(including ours) !...Trying to insinuate, that you are the ONLY authority on Fat's or Ronnie,..Is just a bit much, (even for you)...just as it was 4 years ago !

Also, you conveniently forgot to mention, (much like your Hubert Cokes 8 no-count story) that Ronnie was giving
Fat's a ball, AND odds on the money, PER GAME !..I agree, Fats was past his prime, when they played, but, RA had also not nearly reached HIS prime yet !..If you are going to SELL your expertise, don't just say what suits YOUR agenda ! :rolleyes:

Dick

PS..Helfert loved Fatty too, and I'm quite sure, he knew him better than you or I !.. But, it isn't called "knocking" when someone is simply being more realistic about where Fat's stood in the pecking order !..You're right about one thing though, he did play about even with Mr. Cokes ! ;)
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Fred,

Despite your obvious 'baiting', I refuse to infect this thread with our ongoing differences of opinion !..If anyone cares enough to read it, the link I furnished to the "Is Fats a Fit" thread, gives over 300 different versions of him and his accomplishments..(including ours) !...Trying to insinuate, that you are the ONLY authority on Fat's..Is just a bit much, (even for you)...just as it was 4 years ago !!!

Dick
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Dick that was a great read (is Fats a Fit), it answer any and all question i ever had about the FAT man!
 
There's a video/audio of Ronnie Allen talking about Fats on YouTube. It's number 3 of a 7 part series. I listened to it last night and couldn't believe how much money Fats took off of Ronnie's road partner. It's part of a compilation of road stories by Ronnie.
 
freddy the beard said:
Just to be brief, I watched him playing Ronnie Allen, when Ronnie was Ronnie, for big money. Fatty was certainly no short stop, he impressed the shit out of me. In his prime, I heard from people who would know, that Fatty was a top player.

You can read my further opinions in my book, The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers.

Beard
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Freddy,

On one of the trips I took with Ronnie from Vegas to Reno, he told me he could give "Fats" 8 - 7 but he didn't like it. Sounds pretty strong to me!

Lyn
 
richiebalto said:
Dick that was a great read (is Fats a Fit), it answer any and all question i ever had about the FAT man!
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Not to change the subject, but I thought you might enjoy this excerpt from one of the stories I've been posting on 1P.org.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=45959

RA is (was) about 5 yrs. younger than me, and we have played many, many sessions, over the 50 yrs. I knew him !...I always thought for sure, he had to be one of Fat's illegitimate son's ;) He may have been even stronger than Fatty, at the "shark" ;)

Dick
 
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SJDinPHX said:
Fred,

Despite your obvious 'baiting', I refuse to infect this thread with our ongoing differences of opinion !..If anyone cares enough to read it, the link I furnished to the "Is Fats a Fit" thread, gives over 300 different versions of him and his accomplishments..(including ours) !...Trying to insinuate, that you are the ONLY authority on Fat's..Is just a bit much, (even for you)...just as it was 4 years ago !!!

Dick
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Hmm, ONLY authority eh? Me? Hmmm. Was that my overbearing authority that absolutely declared that Fats was a strong 8 or a weak 9? It seemed to me and anybody with a brain, that you were that one that assumed the final authority on the issue. Thats why I came in and opened my mouth. The best you got is an opinion. You aint the ONLY authority on Fat's.

Beard

Discriminating people should notice that I quoted actual spots, players, and handicaps that occurred when rendering my opinion. Almost forgot, Fatty was playing Marcel Camp and Gene Skinner dead even for big money in 1965 at Jack Kramer's Cue and Cushion on 79th and Biscayne in Miami, Fl.

(Forgive me, Lord, for I have sinned. This is the first ink I have given this man (SJD) in about 9 months.)
 
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