missing cut shots with alot of top spin.

[scottycoyote]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

 

[longhair]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

I don't think it should make any difference. Maybe your mechanics aren't quite as good on a follow stroke? Do you always miss too thin, always miss too full, or some of each?

 

[Blackjack]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

I try to have the object ball pass into the pockets without hitting anything except the bottom of the pocket. This means that you will have to slow down your stroke a little bit to discover what the exact problem is. More times then not, accuracy is affected due to the speed of stroke surpassing the pocket's margin of acceptability.

 

[Andrew Manning]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

Do you consistently overcut with top spin? I ask because that's what I do. I think it's because I shoot a lot of shots with stun or a small amount of draw, which means the CB is not spinning much if at all vertically. The difference between a rolling (top-spinning) ball and a sliding ball is very large in terms of the friction between the CB and OB. If you line up a close shot into a distant pocket (CB and OB 12 inches apart, but OB is 5 feet from the pocket) at a mild cut angle (maybe 20 degrees of cut), and shoot it several times with medium-soft speed and center ball, note where you're aiming to pocket the ball. Now aim at the same point, but use a force-follow stroke. You'll probably overcut the ball significantly, because the stun shot had a high amount of contact throw, most of which disappears with the force-follow shot.

It's something I find I have to consciously take into account in my game. I think some players are experienced enough they can make the adjustment without thinking about it or realizing it, but I miss shots if I don't think about this effect.

-Andrew

 

[8-Ball Player]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

Yeah! I have that exact same problem, mine usually jumps off the object ball first though...

 

[PoolSponge]

Normally when I see someone miss using a lot of top or bottom spin it is due to how they deliver the cue to the cue ball. Try to mimic the top pros in their delivery. Be cautious not to snap the stroke, rather, focus on a long smooth follow through. This will create more repeatable spin, as well, the snap tends to cause a small jump in the shot which can knock the cue ball off line even a hair which can translate into a miss. By staying down on the shot and stroking long and smooth with a level cue stroke the cue ball has a better opportunity to stay online with true spin.

JMHO

 

[BRKNRUN]

I tend to hit balls "thick" when I use top spin with pace on the CB...At slower pace...(more rolling the CB) the ball goes right in...

The key question is...Is there a pattern to your miss? Do you always overcut or under cut a shot...

I just know that when I use a follow stroke with pace i need to aim just a @##% hair thinner...

 

[Ant812]

you said you were loading the cb with a lot of top spin. to me that sounds like a fast stroke. you have determine if you are actually hitting the ball dead center. if not you are probably missing due to cue ball swerve. it will swerve more the higher (or lower) from center you hit it if you are off center left or right.

 

[cueman]

Aim thinner if using a lot of top spin as you are going to throw the object ball forward slightly. The dirtier the balls the thinner you have to cut it with top spin. Draw basically does the same thing. The extreme spin causes the cueball to stay in contact with the oblect ball slightly longer. Using a little outside english usually causes the object ball to roll true to the angle using follow or draw.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[rikdee]

Listen to Cueman. He is correct.

 

[Deadon]

Aim thinner if using a lot of top spin as you are going to throw the object ball forward slightly. The dirtier the balls the thinner you have to cut it with top spin. Draw basically does the same thing. The extreme spin causes the cueball to stay in contact with the oblect ball slightly longer. Using a little outside english usually causes the object ball to roll true to the angle using follow or draw.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

If your stroking fairly level, throw is more pronounced on slower shots, then as the speed of the stroke is increased, the throw decreases.

At least that is my understanding.

 

[Deadon]

I try to have the object ball pass into the pockets without hitting anything except the bottom of the pocket. This means that you will have to slow down your stroke a little bit to discover what the exact problem is. More times then not, accuracy is affected due to the speed of stroke surpassing the pocket's margin of acceptability.

Sorry Blackjack, I just don't get the last statement. Could you explain the terms a little.

 

[Blackjack]

Sorry Blackjack, I just don't get the last statement. Could you explain the terms a little.

It has to do with the pocket speed and what the pocket will accept from a shot hit at that angle. Most of these shots are hit at the wrong speed and the pocket will reject it because of that factor, not the accuracy.

The shot can be hit accurately, but the excessive speed might take the object ball past the pocket opening to the inside pocket tip, causing it to rebound or rattle out.

 

[Stretch]

Normally when I see someone miss using a lot of top or bottom spin it is due to how they deliver the cue to the cue ball. Try to mimic the top pros in their delivery. Be cautious not to snap the stroke, rather, focus on a long smooth follow through. This will create more repeatable spin, as well, the snap tends to cause a small jump in the shot which can knock the cue ball off line even a hair which can translate into a miss. By staying down on the shot and stroking long and smooth with a level cue stroke the cue ball has a better opportunity to stay online with true spin.

JMHO

Great advice Sponge! Yes, in the past i found that when i wanted a little extra of something I start stabbing the ball which in turn, jared more balls. It's the quality of the shot that matters so with thin cuts and spin shots think SMOOOOOOOOOTH. St.

 

[Jal]

Aim thinner if using a lot of top spin as you are going to throw the object ball forward slightly. The dirtier the balls the thinner you have to cut it with top spin. Draw basically does the same thing. The extreme spin causes the cueball to stay in contact with the oblect ball slightly longer.

It's my understanding, and I think tests have verified it, that with either more topspin or draw, you get less sideways throw. That means you want to hit thicker.

I would be really surprised (well, sort of) if spin, extreme or otherwise, increased contact time.

There is a very subtle effect which happens with either follow or draw on the cueball, causing the object ball to masse slightly after the collision. As such, follow increases apparent throw, while draw diminishes it. But this is so small that it's unlikely anyone would ever notice it, much less have it be the difference in making a shot or not.

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Listen to Cueman. He is correct.

No offense to Cueman, but I don't think so. I believe Andrew Manning and Deadon got it right: vertical spin (follow) and faster speed both reduce the amount of throw (this can been shown by experiment), so the object ball should be hit slightly thicker, not thinner.

Another strong possibility was mentioned by Ant812: with force follow swerve becomes a real factor so you have to be extra careful to hit dead center (on the vertical centerline).

pj
chgo

 

[VIProfessor]

I think the reason most maximum follow shots (which by definition must be hit with some speed) are missed is not throw, but technique. While many of us have have spent countless hours practicing power draw shots, how many of us have spent any signficant time on power follow? Because the shaft of the cue visually divides the cue ball in half (particularly for those of us with a low stance), accuracy is already made somewhat more difficult. Many players compound this, however, with a tendency to collapse their elbow on follow shots in an effort to keep the cue tip high on the ball. Of course, that additional and often exaggerated elbow movement, before contact with the ball, helps to throw accuracy completely out the window, thus the jarred ball.

I include follow shots in my daily warmup routine, and a couple times a week I spend 5-10 minutes on this shot. The object ball is placed about a half-inch off the rail one diamond below the side pocket, and the cue ball is placed two diamonds above the side pocket, just slightly inside the object ball. You must make the object ball and send the cue ball forward one rail and back to contact the back rail. You must successful execute the shot at least five times in a row, or you must start over, and continue until successful completion. Keep a relaxed stroke, and don't try to do anything extra with the wrist or the upper arm. If you just follow straight through and hit high enough on the cue ball you will get the job done.

CueTable Help

Oops, one last thing--the object ball MUST NOT touch the rail on the way to the pocket. All such occurences count as a miss. This exercise has significantly increased my accuracy and confidence on all follow shots.

 

[Russ Chewning]

No offense to Cueman, but I don't think so. I believe Andrew Manning and Deadon got it right: vertical spin (follow) and faster speed both reduce the amount of throw (this can been shown by experiment), so the object ball should be hit slightly thicker, not thinner.

Another strong possibility was mentioned by Ant812: with force follow swerve becomes a real factor so you have to be extra careful to hit dead center (on the vertical centerline).

pj
chgo

Patrick,

If hit with straight follow, there is no swerve. I think the original post only mentioned top spin, and not side english. I believe Blackjack is right, it's because of too much force being used on the stroke.

I think the best way to improve on these type of shots, is to get an Accu-Stats video of some of Corey Deuel's best matches, by whatever method you prefer, and watch how he hits them. He hits these type of shots extremely smoooooth, and that's what gets the cue ball around the table, not force.

Russ

 

[Scottster]

Follow= a slightly thicker hit.

Draw = a slightly thinner hit.

Dont believe me? Keep missing then.

 

[BRKNRUN]

No offense to Cueman, but I don't think so. I believe Andrew Manning and Deadon got it right: vertical spin (follow) and faster speed both reduce the amount of throw (this can been shown by experiment), so the object ball should be hit slightly thicker, not thinner.

Another strong possibility was mentioned by Ant812: with force follow swerve becomes a real factor so you have to be extra careful to hit dead center (on the vertical centerline).

pj
chgo

I can't argue based on science results, but I am not sure with the human element that it would really even be aplicable....

However....from my experience (shot trends) I tend to under-cut the ball with follow and overcut with draw....especially as you increase the CB speed....

I have also discussed this effect in the past with better players than me, and they have the same effects when using follow or draw...

Now...keep in mind this is for shots that cloth friction has not caught up with the spin of the CB....(Force Follow or Draw).... A "rolling" CB at contact (although still has top spin) does not quite have the same effect.

Also...the other variable....for some what looks like the right cut angle may be too thick...or thin......that is the human element...