Moisture Content of Chalk

[Maniac]

So how did it work out? thanks

Seriously, I wasted an hour of my precious time and a dish of water that could have kept an African villager alive for 2 days.

I absolutely could tell NO difference in the way the four different pieces of chalk applied or played. FTR, It was Masters light green, Masters blue, Silver Cup grey, and Silver Cup dark green. The ONLY obvious difference I could see was the wrappers on all four pieces fit a bit looser from the exposure to the moisture.

Maniac (done with chalk experimentation)

 

[Bumpa]

Fatz -

> I've read threads here where people put water on other people's chalk
> during a match to screw it up. I guess chalk that is literally wet on the
> surface is a bad thing.

Never tried it, but I would guess the same thing.

> Now if yours had time to soak in and just ended up raising the deeper
> moisture content slightly, then maybe that's good. I've been wondering
> myself how deeply into the cube can you change the moisture content,
> how much, and how quickly.

I let it sit overnight hoping a few drops would permeate the chalk and raise the moisture content throughout. Not sure I succeeded.

> Do you use much english? I will get way out to the edge on top and
> bottom, but tend to not use as much side to side.

No. I am a newbie. I shoot softly and use little English.

> Keep us posted. thanks.

Will do. Going to try the chalk again tomorrow. It was only 105 degrees with low humidity today. I suspect my two little drops of water are long gone...

Rick - Davis, CA

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

So as far as the first quoted statement above, you are of the opinion that the folks at Tweeten are not being totally honest when they say the formula hasn't been changed, only some American flags on the labels is the only difference???

Not again please. Please (re)read post #28 and #31. What I am saying is that I think there is a difference and I do stand by that. BUT I am assuming that Tweeten tells the truth. So then how to explain the difference? Just theories, sometimes $h1+ happens. I don't claim to know why it is different, but I believe it is different.

Added edit: If you search for threads about this, you will see that I am not the only one who has this opinion. One fact remains, that it is a controversial issue. I just started this thread to ask about the effects of humidity on chalk. I'm not trying to resolve the conflict or fan the fire. I ask that no one else does either.

Fatz

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

As far as your second quoted statement, maybe that is the sole reason why some people notice a difference in the pre-flag/flag masters chalk. It may be nothing more than the enviornment that the older chalk has been stored in over the years...

Please (re)read post #36 for my opinion on that.

thanks

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

I let it sit overnight hoping a few drops would permeate the chalk and raise the moisture content throughout. Not sure I succeeded.

I'm guessing it takes a lot more time of being exposed to a constant higher humidity.

I am a newbie. I shoot softly and use little English.

You might not see much difference from brand to brand of chalk since you are using mainly center ball.

Just to give this better perspective for you since you are a newbie, today's Master chalk is good chalk and it's very affordable and easily available.

When your game gets to the point that you are using SEMI-extreme english without miscuing, then move to the next step. When you start miscuing using REALLY-extreme english, then maybe the chalk will start making a difference for you.

Like I said perspective. These threads about chalk are about trying to find an extra edge.

Fatz

 

[Razor]

I use Blue (Flag) Master. I am not certain of the water or moisture content. I do not know the ingredients or how it is formulated. I focus on maintaining a tip that is well shaped and scuffed occasionally to hold the chalk. I chalk after every shot as part of my PSR by brushing the chalk on the tip. I never drill a hole and use almost the whole cube. This gives me great satisfaction for some reason. This also means I have to trim the wrapper with a razor when I get down low enough in the cube. I cannot remember the last time I miscued, but it does happen. I think focusing on the tip and tip maintenance is maybe more important to get the desired results and the "edge" being sought. That's only my opinion. I could be wrong. Best wishes with the baking, adding moisture, and all other experimentation in the quest for chalk nirvana. Respectfully.

~Razor

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

I use Blue (Flag) Master. I am not certain of the water or moisture content. I do not know the ingredients or how it is formulated. I focus on maintaining a tip that is well shaped and scuffed occasionally to hold the chalk. I chalk after every shot as part of my PSR by brushing the chalk on the tip. I never drill a hole and use almost the whole cube. This gives me great satisfaction for some reason. This also means I have to trim the wrapper with a razor when I get down low enough in the cube.

So are you using the razor in your avatar for this? ...

Couldn't resist.

Here's a tip for you. Get a 7/8" square dowel. Home Depot has a 7/8" square oak molding/trim piece about 6" long. Cut off some sections about 3/8" long. When your chalk cube gets low enough, place it on the little square wood section you cut off and tape it all together around the sides. This gives you the same height as a new piece of chalk, so it's physically easier to chalk with. (Or stick the wood piece in the bottom of your chalk holder. I don't like chalk holders myself.) I came up with this since I'm using pricier chalks and I want them to last as long as possible.

I cannot remember the last time I miscued, but it does happen. I think focusing on the tip and tip maintenance is maybe more important to get the desired results and the "edge" being sought. That's only my opinion. I could be wrong. Best wishes with the baking, adding moisture, and all other experimentation in the quest for chalk nirvana. Respectfully.

~Razor

The baking thing, etc. easy enough. When it comes to ADDING humidity, I confess that I may soon find that I have reached even my limit for attempting chalk nirvana. Just don't see a worthwhile way to do it right now.

Edit: I agree the good tip maintenance is more important. As far as I'm concerned, adding better chalk to that is one MORE edge.

Also, respectfully, my opinion.
Fatz

 

[Mr. Bond]

a person could, in theory, get a proper moisture meter* (and perhaps even a digital scale), and do some comparisons of old and new chalk. or even compare various brands 'out of the box', to see how they differ in that respect.

* the kind used to measure moisture content in various construction materials. ie wood, sheetrock etc.

additionally you could use a meter and/or scale to see if your 'rehydration' techniques are working, and if so, to what extent.

--> also keep in mind that humidity is not 'treated' water, tap water is.
(treated water may or may not react with the chalk ingredients, including a possible break-down of the binder(s) if it(they) is(are) water soluable)

 

[Mr. Bond]

a person could also, in theory, create a simple "friction test" ramp, to compare the "gripping power" of various chalks under a load.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

square dowel

So are you using the razor in your avatar for this? ...

Couldn't resist.

Here's a tip for you. Get a 7/8" square dowel. Home Depot has a 7/8" square oak molding/trim piece about 6" long. Cut off some sections about 3/8" long. When your chalk cube gets low enough, place it on the little square wood section you cut off and tape it all together around the sides. This gives you the same height as a new piece of chalk, so it's physically easier to chalk with. (Or stick the wood piece in the bottom of your chalk holder. I don't like chalk holders myself.) I came up with this since I'm using pricier chalks and I want them to last as long as possible.



The baking thing, etc. easy enough. When it comes to ADDING humidity, I confess that I may soon find that I have reached even my limit for attempting chalk nirvana. Just don't see a worthwhile way to do it right now.

Edit: I agree the good tip maintenance is more important. As far as I'm concerned, adding better chalk to that is one MORE edge.

Also, respectfully, my opinion.
Fatz

Hi Fatz
7/8 square dowel lol All dowels are round .

this back and forth is not getting us anywhere.
Im willing to help with this research but we need to know how to test .

Or where to really start testing.

One habit im not willing to give up is chalking every shot.
when I chalk it slows me down because I feel my game is to fast.
I really dont care about how long a cube of chalk last because most chalk is cheap. 144 cubes for under 20.00.
I am also a kamui dealer and i have some 0.98 unopened.
i dont have a moisture meter.
how do we test.
MMike


a msds of chalk would be a start.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

...when trying to add moisture, I find that the size of the water particles is crucial, moreso than temp.

a person could, in theory, get a proper moisture meter...

Firstly, what methods do you use to add moisture? I'm at a loss as to what procedures to follow and how quickly it could be done. The humid bathroom idea just doesn't seems that "efficient" to me.

thanks
Fatz

 

[thommy]

I've got a Delmhorst moisture meter and some masters, silver cup, balabushka and blue diamond.

Meter doesn't read under 6%

Silver cup, been around for a while, no reading
Blue diamond, few months old, 7%
Balabushka, same age as blue diamond, no reading
Master, a few weeks older than the Balabushka and Diamond, shy 7%

Anybody want to send me some others I'll test them too.
This is with the meter set to test Douglas Fir, there wasn't a setting for chalk.

somebody may want to cut and paste this for fatz as he has me blocked

 

[thommy]

anybody home here?

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

hi thommy

I've got a Delmhorst moisture meter and some masters, silver cup, balabushka and blue diamond.

Meter doesn't read under 6%

Silver cup, been around for a while, no reading
Blue diamond, few months old, 7%
Balabushka, same age as blue diamond, no reading
Master, a few weeks older than the Balabushka and Diamond, shy 7%

Anybody want to send me some others I'll test them too.
This is with the meter set to test Douglas Fir, there wasn't a setting for chalk.

somebody may want to cut and paste this for fatz as he has me blocked

Hi thommy
Well that is a start with your moisture meter.
can you post a pic of your meter the one i had , you had to pound the probes into the wood.

Its to bad so many threads end up into a bad blood deal.

but back to chalk how can we make our research into science and factual.


MMike

 

[thommy]

The probes push into the wood, pushed easily into the chalk.
I've got the cube of silver cup in a baggie with about a tablespoon of water. Nuked it a couple times at 50% power for 2 minutes. Put it on the window sill in the sun for the afternoon. Looks pretty soggy now. I'm going to leave it in the baggy for a day or two. take it out then and measure moisture. Measure moisture daily and report.

I stand by my original irreverent post. It is chalk. It absorbs moisture or loses moisture dependent on relative humidity.

I'm willing to participate for the sake of science:grin:

 

[Mr. Bond]

....It is chalk. It absorbs moisture or loses moisture dependent on relative humidity.

Not exactly - and Yes, absolutely.
Technically it's not 'chalk' per say, but it is very very similar to chalk in the way that it absorbs and releases water.

Firstly, what methods do you use to add moisture? I'm at a loss as to what procedures to follow and how quickly it could be done. The humid bathroom idea just doesn't seems that "efficient" to me.

If you want the secrets chief, you gotta slip me a $20 or something first.

I'm just kidding lol.....

This calls for a thursday afternoon chalk lecture!

First, let me say that the amount of moisture in a cube of chalk, is miniscule to begin with, because thats the way its made.
So any variation of that will also be slight.

Aaaaahhh silicates.....the stuff of legends. (mild sarcasm)
The real mineral 'chalk' is a silicate. Sand usually contains silicates. Quartz is a silicate. Rubies and Sapphires are silicates. Mica (as in "formica") is a silicate. And speaking of Mica, so organized are the Mica molecules that it's theoretically possible to cut a wafer of it exactly one atom thick.

The reason I bring up silicates is because in their varying forms, they are the primary ingredients in a typical block of billiard 'chalk'. There are all sorts and grades of silica based 'sands' that are used, along with talc or lime or perhaps even corn starch, but then there are two (silicate) substances in particular that really do the trick...

One is Aluminum Oxide**, also known as Alumina or Corundum. This substance is second only to diamonds on the hardness scale, so it is widely used as an abbrasive or in polishing compounds. One of the powdery forms used for billiard chalk is called Axolite.

The other is Magnesium carbonate** or magnasite. An anhydrous salt that is not quite as 'hard' as Axolite, but it has great "grit" and also serves to regulate moisture and prevent 'caking', which lets the billiard chalk 'release' and apply evenly. Like Alumina, it's even used in food grade products and cosmetics.

Both of the previous substances have what is known as excellent 'hygroscopic' properties when it comes to making chalk. They naturally attract moisture, but because of their structure, will also "let go" of moisture just as easily. (because nobody wants soggy chalk)

The only drawback is, in an arid environment, moisture will in fact be drawn out quicker than in a humid one. And vice versa, a dry piece of chalk might actually absorb too much in a humid environment.
(But keep in mind, we're still talking about tiny amounts)
Either way, the moisture content cannot actually change the "grit" factor, it will only change the consistency.

Common sense will tell you how to keep a chalk from drying out. But is it possible to rehydrate? In my opinion, yes and no.

As mentioned before, all water is not friendly water. So unless you know for a fact that the chalk's binders et al will not react or degrade when wet, any direct contact with water could in fact be a death sentence for a given block of chalk...and....

**For the most part, just about everything in a block of chalk is akaline. And Alumina and Magnasite specifically will react at any trace of acid.

The potential for such reactions, (and not neccessarily just from direct contact) and oxidation in particular, are contributing factors when considering how a given block of chalk may "change" over time. (not just moisture content)

Also as mentioned before, only moisture of a certain size (small enough) will naturally and readily absorb and evaporate, without making things "wet". So other than using an atomizer* in a completely sealed room, I have found no efficient way to imitate natural humidity in the air. Not only that, but pretty much any attempt to re-create the perfect moisture level will immediately cross the economic threshold. In other words, to spend anything more than the price of the chalk is pointless, when you can simply buy a new one.

*with ultra pure water


But even if you did imitate mother nature's humidity and it worked.....what next? Your chalk will just dry out again.

If you suspect that your chalk is "too dry", (which it probably isnt) just leave it in a naturally humid place and it will eventually reabsorb moisture as best it can. You may get results overnight or it may take weeks, but just like wood does, it will "even out" to a certain level, based on its present environment.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

This calls for a thursday afternoon chalk lecture!...

Nice write up. Thanks Mr. Bond.

 

[Mr. Bond]

You're welcome...

And for the record, if you do perform a grit or friction test, let me know what you find out...

In case you've never heard of it, the type of test I'm talking about utilizes a small "ramp" with some sort of miniature "sled" to slide down it.
Basically a plank of smooth wood leaned against a chair and a block of wood for a sled would do the trick.

You then apply the chalk in question to the ramp, place the sled on the chalk, and add weight to the sled until it starts to slide. Track how much weight it takes to move the sled for each chalk sample.

In theory, if the 'old' chalk is different somehow, the test results should reflect it.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Hi thommy...

Its to bad so many threads end up into a bad blood deal.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it bad blood. I was PO'd he said/implied basically it was a stupid question. That was a few days ago and I'm over it. I took him off my ignore list just now.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

All this scientific testing stuff is a bit beyond what I would want to get into myself. I'll basically try my experiment and then try playing pool with the chalk to see if it worked. I trust my senses more than anything else anyway.