Money lost but unethical Cuemaker found

[pocket]

OP sounds like a real PITA to deal with based on this thread.

 

[Tommy-D]

I've been around here a long time,and have seen multiple threads about bad deals with cuemakers.

Without having met any of them,it sure seems to me like there may be things going on in the background that may not be avoidable.

I'm only using this one as an example,but judging by the work Eddie Cohen has shown on here,I personally have a HARD time believing someone as talented (and well-financed) as a cuemaker can be a complete shit when it comes to the business end. Tommy D.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Right this very second the person who posted this slips my mind but I do honestly believe they deserve a great big GREENIE as they are really on to something that could be greatly beneficial to ALL INVOLVED !

They posted something to the effect that just as there is the GAL list, there should be something like an ANTI- GAL list for those who try to order custom cues and REGARDLESS of who they deal with, regardless of what they want ( try to order), regardless of the price range, regardless of everything basically - they are NEVER HAPPY, their is ALWAYS some type of issue with ( builder , timeframe, components used, method, style, deposit amount - type - etc ), and this list goes on and on and on. I will be the first to admit that FOR SURE there are POS cue builders out there that have a track record of dicking folks around and outright ripping people off. These builders get putted and we hear many stories over and over again and they are always the same stories. Conversely, there are also BUYERS that always have the same issues over and over and over again that they experience regardless of whom the builder is. These are the " BUYERS " everyone needs to be looking out for to avoid the heartache , money and time lost, and most important - the apparent obligatory smearing of one's name via the internet. No one sale is worth what some are forced to endure. Also just to be clear, we are not just talking about someone who calls up to get a custom cue made. As WE ALL KNOW, there are those who put sellers thru the wringer, even when buying a cheap used cue on the internet, via our own AZ used cue market or maybe ebay or maybe FB ( OPM ). Truthfully it's all the same. Same old Nits, same old PITAs , just a different we'd address and a different day - that's all. I there were to be a list such as the ( ANTI GAL ) that were made for the cue buyer it would save SO MANY good people the wasted time, frustration, u necessary dragging thru the mud of one's good name / reputation

 

[Skippy27]

Im shipping his blank to Omen today.

I will no longer respond to this thread.

After this posting I don't think you really need to and if you give any or all of his deposit back is up to you.

Clearly this guy has some issues outside of this deal if he has that track record.

 

[poolhustler]

Whatever you've just said can be answered with what has been written above in the many pages of this thread.

.... and yet here I find myself agreeing with what he wrote 100% !!!

 

[skins]

Lets see,...

$800 for veneered boxes
$120 for extra ring work
$400 for 8 propellers

...from a competent detailed oriented maker that's cheap yet the OP is complaining about cost?? He obviously doesn't know what's involved to perform that work and how it effects build cost...

Is it just me or are more and more buyers coming out of the "woodwork":wink: with the diamond eyes, penny pockets syndrome?...

 

[Quesports]

I DO NOT understand people. Several years ago I designed and purchased an expensive cue with lots of ivory from a very well known cue maker. Everywhere I went with it everyone wanted to see it and hit a ball with it, the attention was just too much for me. So I contacted the cue maker and we chatted about the attention the cue got and he agreed with me that the same thing I was feeling was similar to his own experience. So it was decided that he would build a low end no frills cue. I sent him $700.00 deposit and then we began the discussion about what to build and the design. After several conversations he and I came to the conclusion that we could not agree on a build. So I told him to keep some of the deposit for his consultation time, we both agreed on the sum and that was that. NO drama, NO threads on AZ, No BS. Is it so hard to be reasonable without all this garbage??????????

 

[Dave-Kat]

Sorry about the mix up. Now that Davis blank is jinxed. I have no patience thus buy whats in $ range, available and to my liking. I have not, nor will I ever order a 'custom' cue and wait, and wait, and wait.

When I buy a Cue, I want to be hitting balls with it in 2-3 days and that seems like a life time:groucho:

-Kat,

 

[BmoreMoney]

I DO NOT understand people. Several years ago I designed and purchased an expensive cue with lots of ivory from a very well known cue maker. Everywhere I went with it everyone wanted to see it and hit a ball with it, the attention was just too much for me. So I contacted the cue maker and we chatted about the attention the cue got and he agreed with me that the same thing I was feeling was similar to his own experience. So it was decided that he would build a low end no frills cue. I sent him $700.00 deposit and then we began the discussion about what to build and the design. After several conversations he and I came to the conclusion that we could not agree on a build. So I told him to keep some of the deposit for his consultation time, we both agreed on the sum and that was that. NO drama, NO threads on AZ, No BS. Is it so hard to be reasonable without all this garbage??????????

Yes, yes it is ( with some buyers ). But I do agree that your story is how it is supposed to go , you just conveyed exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post that many folks for some reason ( possibly they are just NITS Im not sure ) just do not get. Custom cue makers are artists first and foremost. They don't have to turn on a ,aching to be " working " on the cue that you have commissioned them to build. Even talking to the buyer and thinking about what they will be building is work for them and should be compensated for that time.

 

[maha]

my bet is that pete will not make him a cue now after seeing what goes down with this guy. he is just too tough of a customer to deal with.

 

[BmoreMoney]

my bet is that pete will not make him a cue now after seeing what goes down with this guy. he is just too tough of a customer to deal with.

No idea about Pete, but who in the hell would want to after seeing exactly what's in store for them lol . You reap what ya sow brother and and after coming on here and making a thread like he did imo he will be getting exactly what he deserves. Also, just in my opinion coming and creating a thread should be a near last resort. And that's assuming you actually have been done wrong. I've scene nothing to make me think he's been done wrong at all. As we know, for sure there are some REAL POS Cue makers out there but this cue maker does not see to be one of those. I wish everyone involved in this luck but I'm not sure for 1 that the OP knows what he wants, but for sure he does not know the right way of going about getting it. Tell your something else, a little more everyday I feel bad for all these cuemakers. They have a tough job which I am not envious in the least little bit ( except for the talent they possess lol ).

 

[Hidy Ho]

After several conversations he and I came to the conclusion that we could not agree on a build. So I told him to keep some of the deposit for his consultation time, we both agreed on the sum and that was that. NO drama, NO threads on AZ, No BS. Is it so hard to be reasonable without all this garbage??????????

There are various factors in play here ... I hypothesize but I think:

1. OP is a youngster. I bet he's in his 20s or early 30s. You see how he posts and stubbornly hold his positions like Asian version of "justinb386" on this forum (despite some of the most respected members on the forum telling him otherwise).

2. OP is from Singapore. There are definitely cultural gap in play here ... to generalize, there is significant different is how they view customer vs. "worker" relationship and what is considered "bargaining/haggling".

3. Also the distance and shipping cost makes whole "let's forget about it"/cancelling difficult.

 

[Masayoshi]

I understand that everyone describes it differently and there's also nothing wrong with him not wanting to reply it.

But the matter here is the he's saying that i did not ask him anything when in fact i did. Obviously he is trying to discredit me saying that i created excuses as to why i don't want to continue working with him. Additionally, as you can tell it is B.S types chores what intention do you think cohen had. Other than to waste time for Pete and myself.

You discredit yourself by publicly complaining about an issue when you were clearly the party at fault. What you may see as a BS chore is actually security for the cue maker because he doesn't trust you, with good reason, and getting another party involved will just make it easier to convolute things.

If a person that is been there has told me i don't see why i shouldn't trust him. He directly used the 2 hours as time spent there to justify why he should have the deposit. Which i actually believed him. Until told otherwise, if you don't think that lying to someone so blatantly is inherently wrong then it's fine i guess.

It's not lying when you take southern california traffic into consideration. Even if he just spent the absolute minimum 40 minutes travel time and 1 hour and 20 minutes drinking coffee at the other shop or using the bathroom, it is still time spent. Calling him a liar because you have 3rd hand information of an event you weren't even present for just makes you look dumb as all the other posters on this thread have told you.

Here is the issue which you still fail to grasp.

He promised to mail it after receiving a mail from Pete, i tried telling Pete already and to no avail, and he threatened to forfeit everything including the blank. I am in no way trying to hustle or blackmail Eddie by sending him the email that Pete sent me. All i want to do is increase the process. Though he claims i've been wasting his time, if he has sent it out 7 days ago none of this will happen.

Important please read this Mr Masayoshi.

Oh, I understand it completely. I just don't agree with you that it is wrong. You have already been found to be indecisive and untrustworthy at best, there are a ton of things that can go wrong sending the cue to Omen without direct contact between the cue makers. You should be thanking him for asking you to have Omen contact him directly as it protects your property as much as it saves him responsibility.

 

[Type79]

*Added in*
*******************
Somehow since people are not too good at catching the issue or are too lazy to read properly. I will post the main issue i have on top.

After reaching an agreement with Eddie on everything, all that is left is for him to mail the blank to Pete and we'd both we on our own ways.

However he insists that Pete emails him personally which is totally against what he wants which is to stop wasting his time. So why would he want Pete to email him when he has my reassurance that Pete would receive the blank. Sending him screen shots that Pete sent to me. If he is really intending on not wanting to waste time, he would have shipped the blank out instead of playing this game of getting Pete to mail him.

This thread only surfaced because he threatened to keep both the blank which i paid for and thus is mine and the amount to be refunded that should Pete not email him. I must add that i have asked Pete twice already.

"I have already asked you twice to have him email me directly. This is the last time I am asking this from you. You have already wasted enough of my time.
If Pete Omen himself does not email me directly confirming the deal, then I will not refund anything and you forfeit everything." -Cohen (2016)

I don't know who is trying to waste more time now.

So all of you who want to add in your two cents whether a deposit should be kept or not. Which is basically what everyone here is only good at doing, i'm sorry to inform you but the details of that was agreed upon by both me and Eddie which means it is irrelevant to this issue.

*******************

Firstly, i would like to document my experience with Eddie Cohen from California.



It first started with the idea of having using a Davis blank to make my first cue as i wanted to have some history in it.



Being relatively new to the whole idea of building a cue, a friend linked me a thread on AZB which this cue maker was advertising his work. After scrolling through a few pages and looking through other threads, i heard many good things about him about how he was really good at customer service and decided to contact him. This was just 2 years. What could have changed right.



So i on 9th June 2016, contacted him and told him that i wanted to make a cue. I told him my budget was from 1.2k to 1.4k though i’d prefer it to not exceed 1.2k and i was asking about simple inlays which he didn’t reply at all or talk about the cost of inlays. On the 28th of June he replied regarding deposit required for the conversion and the priced of the blank which i sent via PayPal him on the 6th of July. After that nothing was heard till 24th July when i had to ask whether the blank was secured, which he said it was.



Not wanting to chase him and assuming that there was no need for any updates while the blank was being turned down, the next email i sent him was on the 6th of September which i then found out that no work has been started yet.



So Mr. Cohen took my deposit and the money for my blank and for 2 months did not have any form of communication from him. As we didn't manage to discuss inlays and designs for the cue i spent this 2 months looking online and i found that i liked propellers and veneered windows, and brought the idea to him. Not knowing what the market rate was i said i was okay with the price, however after thinking about it i figured it was too much for me and i also checked with other cue makers and realised that they better fit my budget as he charges significantly higher than other cuemakers, 3-4 times to be exact and when i inquired about them he compared his prices with Tad Kohara and Ed Prewitt to justify them. At this point in time after failing to get simple replies in a single email as to how does his cues play, the whole price including ringwork and additional things, i figured that i wasn’t comfortable with working with him anymore else the figure would have ballooned beyond my initial budget.



Thus within 10 hours i told him that i had a change of mind, that it was out of budget and i feel i should work with another cue maker. Which he said that i could change the design for it to be in my budget but he was willing to ship it anyone i wanted to work with, considering that statement i believe that no work has started on it at all.

So while Mr Cohen claims that i cancelled on his for no reason it was simply that things were not clearly outlined in the beginning that his prices were more than i was willing to pay for his work. As he did not answer any questions on mill work and has no website for me to check.


This is where his unethical nature comes to light, and what i have issue the most.



He said this “Deposits are non refundable.

As soon as I get paid I buy materials, therefore there are no refunds on deposits.”


So i told him that since i supplied the blanks, and 2 months ago we didn’t even discuss anything about inlays what materials could he possibly have bought.


Also it is as though the materials that he bought for my cue would not be used for other cues. So does he intend to refund me my deposit when the materials which i paid for that was intended for my cue are used on someone else cue. Or would he quote other customers cheaper because i paid for the materials already, else he’d be getting paid twice.


Since he said he has bought the materials already, i told him that i’d pay for the materials he has bought and he can ship both the materials and blank to the new cue maker i’m interested in working with.

However he refuses allow me to buy over his materials and ship them over to my new cue maker and pulls out a new reason to keep my deposit.


Next, he changes his reasoning that he drove two hours to collect my blank from Martin of superior cues and emails with me has been over 2 hours though i've had people tell me the journey there is barely 20 minutes. Additionally, i don’t see how the longest email he has sent me only consisted of 8 sentences would take more than 2 hours. Other emails were barely 10 words long if i was lucky 3 sentences.



So since i honestly had no energy to argue with him over this issue, and after all he did collect the blank, i offered to pay him 50 for collecting the blank, 25 for paypal fees and i’d pay for shipping.



In return he said he’s refund me 125 and ship it to omen which i agreed. However, he insists on Pete Ohman emailing him that he is going to receive the blank, for god knows what reason whether it is to make life more difficult for me and Pete because in my opinion, all he has to do is mail it to Pete Ohman as the said address i gave him, refund me my 125 and enjoy his free money.



So anyway, i mailed him screenshots of my conversations with Pete as evidence and Pete even specially crafted a mail me saying that he would receive it so i took a screen shot of it and mailed it to him, and this is the response he gave me.



“I have already asked you twice to have him email me directly. This is the last time I am asking this from you. You have already wasted enough of my time.

If Pete Omen himself does not email me directly confirming the deal, then I will not refund anything and you forfeit everything.”

So Mr Cohen is using something that is out of my control to force me to forfeit everything when i have tried everything in my power to resolve the issue as soon as possible. I don't think that he is right to threaten me with forfeiting my blank as well because the blank was bought by me and thus my property.

Moral of the story: It's always important to start of with an ethical cue maker who does not jump at any chance to get business and one that is more than willing to answer questions regarding cost than collecting deposit and leaving you to be at his mercy.

Always think twice, some people would seem nice until you hand over the money then they show their true colours.

It is also important to ask people for opinions on cue makers instead of reading threads about how good he is.

I've heard many bad things about how he dealt behind peoples back when the cues where with him and how he kept missing deadlines.

While i'm sure there are many satisfied customers with him. But I believe it's the small things that counts.

How he handled everything makes me Glad that I'm not working with him to build my cue. Even though I lost 250 because he swallowed the deposit.

Better to lose money than to deal with an unethical person.

I will offer a few comments based on personal experience ordering custom work and custom cues in particular.

At the point commitment is made and deposit paid, research should be completed on the cuemaker's reputation, quality of work, characteristics of the cuemaker's cues, as well as anything else of significance.

In my experience, deposits are non-refundable. Likewise, a verbal commitment without a deposit, is a binding contract to complete the purchase.

A cuemaker whose business is based on custom orders has no business without commitments.

Custom work is not done on a timetable. That's part of the territory. The work is unpredictable. Components might need to be sourced, machines break, parts might break, completion of certain tasks might be interspersed with daily repairs, life events happen, etc. etc.

Changing an order is acceptable but sometimes can complicate the project and certainly changes any prior agreed upon pricing.

I would recommend that anyone needing/wanting a custom cue in a short period of time, rethink ordering a custom. A one year build time should be expected and in some cases a longer wait is not unreasonable.

If you trust the cuemaker, which you should if you have already made a commitment, pictures and or weekly/monthly updates IMO should not be an expected part of the build process. If the cuemaker chooses to provide that information, fine, but I would never bother cuemaker for such information outside of maybe contact after 3 or 6 months.

Part of that completion time is scheduling/starting the work. Submitting a work order does not automatically equate to work commencing. OTOH, a blank might be turned right away and then sit untouched for six months or an order might be submitted and nothing started at all for 9 months.

Basically it is a fluid process without set rules other than that a cue is going to be built and delivered, hopefully, around some future estimated date.

 

[enyaw]

You discredit yourself by publicly complaining about an issue when you were clearly the party at fault. What you may see as a BS chore is actually security for the cue maker because he doesn't trust you, with good reason, and getting another party involved will just make it easier to convolute things.

Well the other party just seems to not want to get involved, if he doesn't trust me as much as you say, i highly doubt that having a third party would matter at all. After all he has my money and my blank.

It's not lying when you take southern california traffic into consideration. Even if he just spent the absolute minimum 40 minutes travel time and 1 hour and 20 minutes drinking coffee at the other shop or using the bathroom, it is still time spent. Calling him a liar because you have 3rd hand information of an event you weren't even present for just makes you look dumb as all the other posters on this thread have told you.

If your plumber chooses to charge you 5 hours of work because he spent 3 hours taking an extended lunch break, i don't think you'd be saying the same thing. This incident on the other hand, just made me not want to work with him.

Oh, I understand it completely. I just don't agree with you that it is wrong. You have already been found to be indecisive and untrustworthy at best, there are a ton of things that can go wrong sending the cue to Omen without direct contact between the cue makers. You should be thanking him for asking you to have Omen contact him directly as it protects your property as much as it saves him responsibility.

Well i have tried to get Omen to contact him directly, which did not happen and i just tried to solve the issue for everyone to be happy. Though i was met with threats.

I will offer a few comments based on personal experience ordering custom work and custom cues in particular.

At the point commitment is made and deposit paid, research should be completed on the cuemaker's reputation, quality of work, characteristics of the cuemaker's cues, as well as anything else of significance.

In my experience, deposits are non-refundable. Likewise, a verbal commitment without a deposit, is a binding contract to complete the purchase.

A cuemaker whose business is based on custom orders has no business without commitments.

Custom work is not done on a timetable. That's part of the territory. The work is unpredictable. Components might need to be sourced, machines break, parts might break, completion of certain tasks might be interspersed with daily repairs, life events happen, etc. etc.

Changing an order is acceptable but sometimes can complicate the project and certainly changes any prior agreed upon pricing.

I would recommend that anyone needing/wanting a custom cue in a short period of time, rethink ordering a custom. A one year build time should be expected and in some cases a longer wait is not unreasonable.

If you trust the cuemaker, which you should if you have already made a commitment, pictures and or weekly/monthly updates IMO should not be an expected of the build process. If the cuemaker chooses to provide that information, fine, but I would never bother cuemaker for such information outside of maybe contact after 3 or 6 months.

Part of that completion time is scheduling/starting the work. Submitting a work order does not automatically equate to work commencing. OTOH, a blank might be turned right away and then sit untouched for six months or an order might be submitted and nothing started at all for 9 months.

Basically it is a fluid process without set rules other than that a cue is going to be built and delivered, hopefully, around some future estimated date.

I understand this totally to me time is not an issue i don't mind waiting years for a cue, i'd liken this situation to if someone decides he cannot finance the cue after it's been built, so he explains the situation to the cue maker. We discuss the terms of it and what will happen next. Which although both parties might not get their desired outcome have reached an agreement and are happy enough to carry on. Which did not manage to get carried out due to some other reasons.

I DO NOT understand people. Several years ago I designed and purchased an expensive cue with lots of ivory from a very well known cue maker. Everywhere I went with it everyone wanted to see it and hit a ball with it, the attention was just too much for me. So I contacted the cue maker and we chatted about the attention the cue got and he agreed with me that the same thing I was feeling was similar to his own experience. So it was decided that he would build a low end no frills cue. I sent him $700.00 deposit and then we began the discussion about what to build and the design. After several conversations he and I came to the conclusion that we could not agree on a build. So I told him to keep some of the deposit for his consultation time, we both agreed on the sum and that was that. NO drama, NO threads on AZ, No BS. Is it so hard to be reasonable without all this garbage??????????

Yes i understand it, and after some squabbles, we have reached an agreement which just spiralled out of control after he made a comment which i deem was unnecessary.

A lot of the people here are just quick to point fingers to who was right or wrong. However what they don't know was what they were playing judge on was already agreed upon by me and him and i was just giving the whole story. And all that's left is for him to mail the blank, and with regards to Masatoshi's comment if Eddie was really so caring and wanting to get rid of the situation he'd just email Pete himself.

Lets see,...

$800 for veneered boxes
$120 for extra ring work
$400 for 8 propellers

...from a competent detailed oriented maker that's cheap yet the OP is complaining about cost?? He obviously doesn't know what's involved to perform that work and how it effects build cost...

Is it just me or are more and more buyers coming out of the "woodwork":wink: with the diamond eyes, penny pockets syndrome?...

I believe that cost is subjective and just because you can afford something doesn't mean that other people is willing to spend the same as you on a particular object.

And i did not force him to lower the price for me in anyway nor come up with excuses as to why i can't pay after the work is done.

I believe i was forth coming enough with him to tell him that since it is not what i'm willing to pay, it was best that we didn't work together.

So you can keep your diamond eyes, penny pockets syndrome statement to yourself because i know what i'm paying for and i get what i pay for. And as long as i don't knock the prices of the cue maker down i believe your comment to be out of place and said out of spite or whatever reason.

 

[Masayoshi]

Well the other party just seems to not want to get involved, if he doesn't trust me as much as you say, i highly doubt that having a third party would matter at all. After all he has my money and my blank.

You highly doubt that making a bad situation more complicated would matter. Yea...

If your plumber chooses to charge you 5 hours of work because he spent 3 hours taking an extended lunch break, i don't think you'd be saying the same thing. This incident on the other hand, just made me not want to work with him.

You aren't paying him by the hour. What he chooses to do on his time is up to him, not you.

Well i have tried to get Omen to contact him directly, which did not happen and i just tried to solve the issue for everyone to be happy. Though i was met with threats.

Most likely because your "solution" was deemed to be a bad idea by both of the other parties involved.

 

[raistlinsdragon]

Why wouldn't you have your blank mailed to EC, instead of having him drive to get it.

 

[KissedOut]

Your sense of fairness reminds me of my junior high former students - fairness is always measured by how it affects you personally. You never consider the unfairness of how you jerked Cohen around with your indecision. You want Cohen to have done everything exactly as you think he should yet you have no standards for YOUR OWN actions.

He OWES you nothing but the return of the blank with you picking up any shipping costs. That he is willing to anything more is a measure of his graciousness.

That you came here with your constantly changing BS story is a measure of why no cuemaker should ever deal with you.

Cuemakers need a site where they can post reviews of customers.

 

[bbb]

Cuemakers need a site where they can post reviews of customers.

that would make for some interesting reading
where is my popcorn...